4 Digit Sky radio channels - Discussion

scoopuk · 04-01-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarySargent

TiVo were made aware of this the other day and it is being investigated whether four digit channels can be supported. They can in the current USA software, but possibly not in the UK software.

Well it needs to be.

The TiVo service is great at supporting recording of radio programmes, almost as important for me as the TV channels.

If the UK software needs a tweak and a minor upgrade so be it. It needs to be done by Tivo and downloaded to our boxes, not everyone is a computer hacker or IT expert, some of us mortals on here are just Tivo customers.

Remember it's TIVO boxes which are supposed to be unavailable here, not our Tivo service which we're still paying monthly for.

GarySargent · 04-02-2005, 04:19 AM

I suspect it is unlikely any software upgrade would happen - especially as the workaround would be to not be able to access the radio channels. That might upset some, but is no different from some Freeview boxes where you have to press a button to toggle to the radio channels.

OzSat · 04-02-2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarySargent

I suspect it is unlikely any software upgrade would happen - especially as the workaround would be to not be able to access the radio channels. That might upset some, but is no different from some Freeview boxes where you have to press a button to toggle to the radio channels.

It is a lot different.

With Freeview you brought a box that didn't work - and lived with it.

With the new situation - you suddenly find you have lost access to something that has worked for years.

I use radio recordings a lot on TiVo - although usually via a Freeview box.

Automan · 04-02-2005, 08:30 AM

So if Sky do start to use four channel numbers for TV channels as well as radio channels does this mean our Tivo's will no longer be of any use (with Sky Digital)?

BTW, I have three Tivo's hooked up to Sky Digiboxes so don't think I'm plugging for Sky+ which of course will be able to handle such a change with a software update.

Automan.

Automan · 04-07-2005, 04:08 PM

All Channels 4 Digits On Sky HD
As mentioned in another thread details of Sky HD are out it should be possible to downgrade its output to work with Tivo http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds19616.html

Of course with out a doubt all channels will be four digits.
If this is the case will updated Tivo software be needed?

Automan.

GarySargent · 04-07-2005, 04:36 PM

Why without a doubt?

I am of the opinion that we will never get any more software updates ever.

Automan · 04-07-2005, 04:48 PM

For example http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-...ws.php?id=6870

Not that any of the channels will have anything on worth watching

Also if Sky are using the same dish / sat combination for HD the channel line with hd and non HD channels must be close to or exceed the 1000 channel barrier.

Automan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarySargent

Why without a doubt?

I am of the opinion that we will never get any more software updates ever.

pahunt · 04-08-2005, 02:55 AM

Is there any time scale on when Sky will start rolling out the update, or has it already started?

pahunt · 04-08-2005, 03:06 AM

Prompted by this thread I've just looked at my list of 100-odd season passes and wishlists and I've found that there are really only 3 things that I would lose by going from Sky to Top-up TV, Most Haunted on LivingTV, 24 on Sky One and new episodes of the Simpsons on Sky One (and those will come to C4 eventually no doubt).

Perhaps it might be a good time to ditch that digibox once and for all.

sanderton · 04-08-2005, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Automan

All Channels 4 Digits On Sky HD
As mentioned in another thread details of Sky HD are out it should be possible to downgrade its output to work with Tivo http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds19616.html

Of course with out a doubt all channels will be four digits.
If this is the case will updated Tivo software be needed?

Automan.

You won't be able to attach a Sky HD box to a TiVo. It's only analogue out will be component, and it will not downscale HD to SD resolutions.

All HD boxes will be PVRs anyway.

Four digit channels don't need an update per se; the problem is the leading zero.

scoopuk · 04-18-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerialplug

A workaround for us who are able to hack our TiVos may well be possible, however what worries me is that the majority of TiVo users out there will no longer be able to record from radio channels. ...

Absolutely, bearing in mind all the original publicity about Tivo and Sky being the future - which prompted us to buy Tivo in the first place - it surely isn't unreasonable to expect a working service from them when Sky changing their channel numbering system.

If they don't, it will surely raise alarm bells about future continuity of service for would-be American customers, who might ask if they're buying a box which will become redundant in three years or so. So much for it being the future....

Workaround hacks are not enough. We pay for our Tivo service - if they give up on this, how long before they give up all together ?

xxxx · 06-02-2005, 01:32 PM

sanderton: That's from the horse's mouth at Sky. Only analogue out is component,

If it's coming from Sky then it's more likely to be out of the horse's ar*e than its mouth.

I for one will eat my proverbial hat if the SkyHD box doesn't have either RF output, composite, RGB, S-Video or (much more likely) some mixture of some/all of them, along with whatever it has in the way of component and DVI/HDMI.

My bet is on RF with TVLink compatibility, composite scart and RGB scart. Just like all existing Sky digiboxes. They would have to be bonkers to alienate the owners of the existing 30+million TVs in the UK, few of which have component or digital inputs. Even those with DVI or component compatible screens in their lounge today probably also have an older CRT screen in the bedroom or kitchen, linked to their digibox in the lounge via coax or a videosender.

sanderton · 06-02-2005, 01:48 PM

I'm seeing them again next week so I'll ask!

Can't think why you'd add all those outputs when to use the box you need an HD Ready set and all HD Ready sets have HDMI.

xxxx · 06-02-2005, 03:02 PM

sanderton : Can't think why you'd add all those outputs when to use the box you need an HD Ready set and all HD Ready sets have HDMI.

As I mentioned: for use with other sets/recorders in the house that don't have any HD or component connections.

Unless Sky think that anyone getting an HDbox will also get a regular box, or keep the one they have with some sort of mirror subscription?

I don't know about other people but I would think about getting an HDdigibox even if I didn't have an HDTV, purely because the broadcast quality of many regular sat channels is far below the quality that my regular TV could display if the broadcast quality was better. So using an HDbox with my old TV would still give me a much better picture than I have now. A good reason to get one, I think, and one that might tempt many. Though if it had no analogue output this would be a complete non-starter, hence the daftness of not giving such a box suitable analogue outputs.

sanderton · 06-02-2005, 04:29 PM

I'm sure the assumption is that very few people will pay the exra for an HD box if they have no HD TV.

One thing that Sky were very explit about is that the box will NOT downscale HD to SD resolution - whatever is broadcast, that's what will come out of the anlaogue out. So your SD TV would not work except when it was tuned to an SD channel.

GarySargent · 06-03-2005, 01:51 AM

4 Digit Sky Channels is an important topic so can we keep offtopic conversations of HD TV in the chit-chat thread please?

bounderboy · 08-31-2005, 02:56 AM

I know its a bit of a sadistic view but it almost gives an insight on how Tivo views the UK market with regards to additional coding.

And it also gives the Forum something interesting to read again :-)

GarySargent · 08-31-2005, 03:36 AM

To be fair it is unrealistic to expect TiVo to continually patch their software to cope with changes in software sent to digiboxes. It's a shame the current IR code isn't more configurable, but it isn't.

I've yet to see a definitive new channel list - is there one? I know there was speculation that sky would use 0<number> for radio channels, but I've yet to see this confirmed by Sky anywhere.

ALanJay · 08-31-2005, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarySargent

I've yet to see a definitive new channel list - is there one? I know there was speculation that sky would use 0<number> for radio channels, but I've yet to see this confirmed by Sky anywhere.

This has been confirmed by Sky, what there isn't is a list of new channel numbers. But within the next 3 months the radio channels will switch to begin with "0". Sky have a big EPG channel number reshuffle coming and to perform it they have to move the radio channels.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds20466.html
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds20318.html

Sky have said this all in press briefings and the software is now in all the digiboxes and most of the Sky+ boxes so it can't be long before the autumn roll out of the change.

Garry I do agree that TiVo can't be expected to jump every thime there is an issue but I'm sure they know what is going on and it would be good if they said how they were going to deal with it (doing nothing defines what they will do).

The current software in the Digiboxes is exactly how the software will work with the new EPG the current TV channels will all have 3 digits if you want radio you will have to add a zero (see the speaker icon) and then enter the channel number of the radio station. You can check the behaviour now

Earlier in the thread there were comments about second STB one way to do this with the current second STB via RF would be to put the radio channels in a second "Sky Radio" STB on the RF input that required 4 digits with leading zeros (all current options). The only down side would be that you wouldn't get stereo.

the_moog · 08-31-2005, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarySargent

To be fair it is unrealistic to expect TiVo to continually patch their software to cope with changes in software sent to digiboxes.

No it isn't... not when we're paying £10/month for an ongoing service!!!

mrtickle · 08-31-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALanJay

Yes this will happen in the next couple of months. Sky have begun downloading the second part of the EPG update to digiboxes and once that has been fully rolled out then we can expect to see the channel shuffle and movement of the radio stations.

Indeed. I really don't want to restart a new debate about whether or not it will happen, I thought that was long over. It's due very soon

Quote:

The reality is that unless TiVo decide that this is something that should be supported that they could take the decisiont to remove the radio listings unless someone has written code to do this and they belive there is enough demand for them.
[...]
The reality is there are some clever people on this forum but they can't do much until we know what TiVo plan to do. If they are going to remove the listings then there isn't much we can do. If they are not going to remove the listing how are they going to keep the channels accessible when the numbers will be reused?

My point was they will still supply listings, for the Freeview and cable lineups. (They may or may not remove for the Sky lineup, leaning to wards "may" it seems). A solution could involve Gary's idea of dual lineups, using the Freeview listings but botched/hacked channel numbers (possible with a script intervening to assist with the channel changes *).

We could test this now with a dual Sky/Freeview lineup to see if listings data was viewable on Tivo and it could be persuaded to record from the scart input instead of RF on the 2nd lineup?

* LJ's red dot script waited for a recording to start, and then fired RF commands. A variation on this theme could wait for recordings on certain channels starting 1 minute early (dummy channel change by TiVo) and then fire RF (the real channel change with 4 digits).

andyjenkins · 08-31-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_moog

No it isn't... not when we're paying £10/month for an ongoing service!!!

But I dont believe your paying £10 per month for software updates ... only TV guide data ??

I thought that if you did not subscribe to TiVo's service - you'd still get any software updates available at the time, no ? Hence no relation to £10 per month to software updates.

xxxx · 08-31-2005, 02:23 PM

Sky digibox users get free updates as required, even if they don't subscribe to Sky. Freeview boxes get free software updates. My DVD player gets free updates. My ShowCenter gets free updates. My Zen Micro gets free updates. My copy of WinXP gets free updates. My ADSL router gets free updates.
None of the above require any payment at all for use. So Tivo ought to do the same even without the monthly £10 they charge for the service. Given that they do charge a monthly £10 that's all the more reason why needed updates should be timely and free.

aerialplug · 09-06-2005, 07:36 AM

To be honest, do TiVo percieve it as a major problem? For quite some time we had no schedule information for any radio services. Granted, on Sky, we could set up manual recordings without the data as TiVo at least knew the radio station numbers but I remember it came as quite a suprprise to TiVo staff in the London "get to know the customers" evening they put on a few years ago that we wanted schedules for radio. It wasn't long after that meeting that Radio 4 and a few of the more "scheduleable" statios started getting data.

Personally, I can't see a solution to the leading 0 problem coming from TiVo. They no longer provide support for series 1 TiVos - whether American or UK so I can't see a software update ever coming from them. The solution (if any) is almost certainly going to have to come from us with a possible minor support role from TiVo continuing to provide the data for channels that are technically not possible to recieve any more.

My initial solution is to set up my freeview box in parallel with Sky so that Radio 4 gets recorded from there. Not ideal - mono instead of stereo but then Radio 4 on DAB is often mono...

Some of the solutions proposed in this thread also sound very promissing - hopefully we'll have something that works on the great and dreadful channel renumber day

xxxx · 09-06-2005, 12:54 PM

Personally, I can't see a solution to the leading 0 problem coming from TiVo. They no longer provide support for series 1 TiVos - whether American or UK so I can't see a software update ever coming from them.

I see no reason why any decent company should imagine that they can stop supporting a product that is only 3 years old (or much less as in fact there are still some unused UK Tivos being newly registered now) and for which many people are still paying a hefty monthly fee. Earlier in this thread I gave a list of firmware and software that require no monthly fee for use and which are still fully supported by the manufacturers, with free updates as and when needed.

Why should Tivo be different? Answers, on a postcard .........

mrtickle · 09-06-2005, 01:09 PM

Perhaps we could split this into two threads, one for discussions about the rights and wrongs of what is happening and the other for technical posts towards a hack/solution? I don't want the tech stuff to get lost in the other discussion, which is why I did a summary post last week

Andy Leitch · 09-07-2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxxx

Personally, I can't see a solution to the leading 0 problem coming from TiVo. They no longer provide support for series 1 TiVos - whether American or UK so I can't see a software update ever coming from them.

I see no reason why any decent company should imagine that they can stop supporting a product that is only 3 years old (or much less as in fact there are still some unused UK Tivos being newly registered now) and for which many people are still paying a hefty monthly fee. Earlier in this thread I gave a list of firmware and software that require no monthly fee for use and which are still fully supported by the manufacturers, with free updates as and when needed.

Why should Tivo be different? Answers, on a postcard .........

Probably because TiVo can be different.

If they don't intend to invest the time and manpower to issue an upgrade, at least they could show some loyalty to the UK user and be open, upfront and honest about it.....and tell us!!

The S1 software is obviously worthless to them, I think they should make the S1 software open source and let the community take it forward. In a similar way to id software does with there game engines.
I've got the source for QIII, and I intend porting it across to AMiGAOS4, when I find the time, as I'm also a beta-tester for that OS which takes up most of my spare time.

Either way, the four digit problem won't bother me, as I'm ditching TiVo shortly for the HD loveliness from Sky.

tartan_haggis · 09-07-2005, 01:23 AM

Making the TiVo S1 software open source is a great idea.

Most manufacturers have an escrow agreement for their software, whereby a third party holds the source code etc. in case the manufacturer goes out of business. Under these circumstances, a user group is formed who is then responsible for the ongoing maintenance of the software on behalf of all users.

Makes sense.

GarySargent · 09-07-2005, 03:49 AM

They should also give TiVo hardware away for free too and work as a charity.

Making the source code open source may benefit the people using TiVo, but it certainly won't benefit TiVo the company and its shareholders who want people to upgrade to the latest machines for the new software.

Don't forget that TiVo is a company with shareholders it has to account to who want the company to make as much profit as possible. I realise any kind of upgrade is not possible in the UK as the hardware is not available, but this is not the case in the USA.

Andy Leitch · 09-07-2005, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarySargent

They should also give TiVo hardware away for free too and work as a charity.

TiVo don't make hardware in the UK, it's a Thomson box.

Quote:

Making the source code open source may benefit the people using TiVo, but it certainly won't benefit TiVo the company and its shareholders who want people to upgrade to the latest machines for the new software.

Maybe someone should inform those shareholders, that there are people in the UK with bundles of cash in their sweaty hands....just waiting for a UK compatible HD TiVo. If TiVo don't want that money....there are other manufacturers who will gladly take it.

Quote:

Don't forget that TiVo is a company with shareholders it has to account to who want the company to make as much profit as possible. I realise any kind of upgrade is not possible in the UK as the hardware is not available, but this is not the case in the USA.

Well that profit will soon be slightly smaller when I unsub my box and move over to a competing product.