Macrovision BS?

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 02:33 PM

Yesterday, for the first time, I got some crappy notification about forced deletions of shows on my TiVo. Search google for TiVo Macrovision for an idea of what I'm talking about.

Am I the only one that is completely outraged by this? I've been a faithful TiVo supporter and owner (both of their product and stock) for years, but this acquiescence seriously causes me to loose faith and respect for TiVo.

What's to stop a channel from saying that TiVo is not permitted to record ANY of their shows? Bah.

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 02:48 PM

and a followup to myself...

Here's an article from wired...

Quote:

WIRED: TiVo has always been about empowering the viewer. Why change now?
ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. If they don't like a narrower window in which to view programming, they won't purchase it. That'll send a message to the content owners.
You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.

What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.

With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.

The "higher-value content" which had restrictions on my TiVo was a 2 year old King of the Hill for Pete's sake! I could maybe in some small way understand it if it were for some PPV boxing fight or something, but for crap like that? Bah! Bah I say!

stevel · 09-10-2005, 04:18 PM

This hasn't actually been implemented yet - what makes you think TiVo forced a deletion of the program? What does your Recording History say?

jmoak · 09-10-2005, 04:20 PM

for those who like to see for themselves, since the op can't post a link yet:

Has TiVo Forsaken Us?

Can you post a screen shot of that crappy notification? It would help a lot in trying to get a response.

"Questions About Macrovision Copy Protection" from Tivo's web site.

I search google for "TiVo Macrovision" and came up with quite a few hits, but most were about trying to dub dvd's to a tivo. There was very little about the "New" macrovision stuff and the ones I found would lead one to believe that this is primarily for ppv's and the like, not regular broadcast shows.

Where'd you go Monkey?? I could really use a screenshot of that notice you got.

Can you come up with one for me to see??

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 05:53 PM

Can't do a screenshot right now, but there are two TiVo suggested items that have been recorded, and instead of having a little round tivo smiling at me like usual, there's a little red flag next to it. When you select the show, there's a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am".

When I go to "Keep Until", there is no "Keep until I delete" option. Instead there is a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am. Due to policy set by the copyright holder, "Keep until I delete" is not permitted."

Bah. Bah I say!

jmoak · 09-10-2005, 05:59 PM

Where are you?
What shows have the little red flags and what channels were they recorded on and when were they recorded?
and to parrot stevel:
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"?

As far as the screenshot, just take a digital picture of the tv screen. It does not have to be great quality, just good enough to read.

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 06:23 PM

Took some screenshots. Need to one more post to be able to post URLs, apparently...

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 06:27 PM

or is it 5 posts and then URLs...

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 06:28 PM

Here's the now playing list. (yes yes, I know, Oprah and Dharma, what can I say, it's a shared TiVo.)

Here's the program info.

Here's the keep until screen.

Here's the show details screen.

Oh yeah, Bah! Bah, I say!

stevel · 09-10-2005, 06:34 PM

My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.

jmoak · 09-10-2005, 06:35 PM

Syndicated Shows?!??!?!?? (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....

Were both of these shows on the same channel?
Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?

btw, Thanks for the quick screenshots so far!!

No worries, we'll get to the bottom of this!
I think stevel is on to something, although I think it might be the local broadcasting tv station.

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 06:39 PM

And the real joke is that I'm using attenna reception, no cable, no satellite. (Yes yes, I know it doesn't make sense. I moved to the woods, and I'm 0.3 of a mile out of Time Warner's service area. Also, trees are too dense for satellite.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevel

My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.

jmoak · 09-10-2005, 06:49 PM

That's It!!!!

All these shows are on the same channel,
Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoak

Syndicated Shows?!??!?!?? (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....

Were both of these shows on the same channel?
Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?

Yes, both shows were on the same channel.

None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag.

Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.

The Recording History doens't say anything, since the show hasn't been deleted yet.

jmoak · 09-10-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PissedMonkey

Yes, both shows were on the same channel.

None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag.

Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PissedMonkey

Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.

I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

If they're setting the flag on every program......ewwww!

If anyone in that area is reading this thread and is on cable, try to record these shows. Let's see if the flag get's stripped when that channel is re-modulated for cable.

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 07:02 PM

I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.

I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight.

My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place? Having a secret workaround (either a device to remove the flag before it hit the tivo, or a remote control sequence) to bypass this annoyance like the 30 second jump just won't cut it. When somebody hears how great TiVo is, and how it's TV Your Way, and they buy one, bring it home, and find out that they're still under the thumb of the broadcasters, TiVo will be lucky if they don't just return the damn thing. Sacrificing something that's crucial to the nature of the device for the sake of toys like TiVo-2-Go (which didn't work in the 10 minutes I spent on it) is ludicrous in my mind.

Bah! Bah, I say!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoak

That's It!!!!

All these shows are on the same channel,
Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmoak

Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.
I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?

Yes, it is indeed 7.2.

jmoak · 09-10-2005, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PissedMonkey

I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.

I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight.

It probably would not be on any local originated shows. It might not show up on the primetime shows either, as they are usually routed straight from the feed to broadcast. This is more likely being mistakenly added via the stations local storage/playout equipment, or via some vid router or conditioner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PissedMonkey

My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place?

I can only point to the story you pointed to in your second post.

If they are doing this on purpose, my question is more to how can a broadcast tv station have the authority to set this flag on content they did not produce?

If this ability is gonna be abused like this then tivo has a pretty damn good argument to remove this.

Now that would be one hell of a marketing opportunity!!

I'd still like to know if anyone in the area has experienced this. It could conceivably be a problem with your tivo.

How old and what model is your tivo?

rog · 09-10-2005, 07:30 PM

PissedMonkey, I understand why you are pissed, but I believe there are a few misperceptions here.

First: content-protection flags did arrive with the 7.2 software. For the justification as to why TiVo added Macrovision-type protection (a.k.a. "the broadcast flag"), read the Zinn interview from Wired Magazine.

TiVo didn't intend for this to be used with syndicated King of The Hill episodes. I seriously doubt Fox or your local station did either.

There are other reported cases of the broadcast flag being accidentally triggered by local TV stations. The other case I specifically remember was determined to be caused (accidentally) by a local cable co.

Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.

I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.

PissedMonkey · 09-10-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

How old and what model is your tivo?

Series 2, probably close to 3 years old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rog

Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.

I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.

I hope you're right. =)

Justin Thyme · 09-10-2005, 10:46 PM

Isn't this much ado about nothing? Macrovision's idiotic schemes have been trivial to defeat in the past. For analog users, why should this one be any different?

Anyone know if this is stored in the VBI? If a VBI stripper won't defeat it, I can't believe you won't see such boxes floating around on Ebay within a few months of any widespread use of this protection scheme. Of course, if the feed were digital, such protections could be very difficult to defeat.

Analog has a lot of advantages. One of them is relative freedom from these stupid schemes.

rainwater · 09-10-2005, 10:47 PM

If its a bug, then there better be a workaround. Doing this by accident and saying it was the broadcaster's fault is not going to sit well with users. If shows I haven't seen yet get deleted because of a misuse or misinterpretation of the flag, then it has to be removed until it works correctly (if that is even possible).

HDTiVo · 09-11-2005, 01:04 AM

There must be a server in China with a TiVo compatible restriction-free MPEG-2 you could download.

parzec · 09-11-2005, 01:37 AM

Would really like to hear a response from someone at Tivo regarding this issue...anyone listening?

Justin Thyme · 09-11-2005, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainwater

If its a bug, then there better be a workaround. Doing this by accident and saying it was the broadcaster's fault is not going to sit well with users. If shows I haven't seen yet get deleted because of a misuse or misinterpretation of the flag, then it has to be removed until it works correctly (if that is even possible).

Huh? Did you read the article? What accident? As Zinn stated in the Wired article, Tivo observes the Macrovision flag. Why should they get involved in it- If broadcasters are idiotic enough to avail themselves of it, it will be easily defeated.

Tivo's position is correct- this is not a battle they should or could or even need to fight for the consumer.

Wired: "We asked TiVo general counsel Matthew Zinn why he thinks Hollywood will settle for an inch when it can take a mile." The answer is, Hollywood can't take a mile. If they try, they will wind up losing a mile.

Here's why.

If the content owners want to push consumers into patterns of buying software and hardware to defeat DRM schemes, that is exactly what consumers will do. And once consumers cross that line, they will feel fewer constraints about trading content with their friends.

Zinn's point to the content owners was that they would be ill advised to pursue that route. It's a game content owners will lose, and it will create some consumer patterns that are not to their advantage.

Sure, I would like all DVD players to be region free and not output macrovision polluted signals. But it is a minor annoyance. Anyone can defeat them with very low cost devices. Why is the situation with Tivo any different? Why should we expect Tivo to take dangerous risks? To save us the possible cost of a $20 box that at this point isn't necessary because no one except this Salem station has accidently or intentionally used this flag?

Seems pretty silly to me.

PissedMonkey · 09-11-2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Thyme

Why should we expect Tivo to take dangerous risks? To save us the possible cost of a $20 box that at this point isn't necessary because no one except this Salem station has accidently or intentionally used this flag?Seems pretty silly to me.

Because the people that read this forum might shell out $20 for a box to remove macrovision tags are only a small portion of TiVo's userbase. By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs. The type of person that frequents a TiVo bulletin board will find solutions to any problem that comes in their way, the other 99% of the people will just find another place to spend their money though, and that's going to kill TiVo's $0.00 per share "earnings".

Or something.

Bah. Bah, I say!

Justin Thyme · 09-11-2005, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PissedMonkey

...By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs. ...

All I am saying is that this is nothing new. Try this- play a dvd into a dvd recorder Tivo. Now try to MRV it to another Tivo. Guess what it says- That's right. It has a red circle slash- copy prohibitted. Same thing.

Now, anyone who is interested in high quality video signals will be familiar with boxes that clean up interference created from various sources. I don't think anyone would be surprized to learn that Tivo has no problem allowing copying of video that doesn't have a lot of extraneous junk in the signal.

If you clean up your video signal, I think you will be interested in the results.

The people that cared about this sort of thing with DVDs did not flock to CE companies that made DVD players without macrovision protection. It did not as you phrase it, "significantly lessen their appeal" over boxes that had been hacked to remove the protection. It is much cheaper to simply buy a $20 add on box if you want to do that sort of thing. Why belly ache about these impotent schemes? Macrovision didn't stop a whole heck of a lot of people who wanted to dub dvds to VHS or to writable DVDs- and it isn't going to have any affect on similar minded people using DVRs- whatever the brand.

I don't see why you expect Tivo to behave differently. They are a CE company, and have to walk a line to get the content guys to loosen up. I think the content guys are going to find that digital distribution is as much a gold mine as VHS distribution was. Naturally, Hollywood is freaked out about scenarios that their property will be made valueless by easy creation of exact copies of their content. They have good reason to procede cautiously. There are billions of dollars of their property value at stake.

I may poke fun at them when I remark that things like CGMS and this Macrovision thing are pacifiers to get them through this high anxiety phase- but it's very serious business to them. Their survival is at stake, and it may take a while for them to stop hyperventilating.

So in the meantime, if you want to have a higher quality signal, you should probably look at ways of enhancing it. Of course, I do not recommend you attempt to defeat copy protections schemes.

There's no reason to get pissed if it's a trivial problem to deal with.

ZeoTiVo · 09-11-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PissedMonkey

By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs.

and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?

TiVo has no choice in the matter that is a good choice. Either have the macovison license and thus honor the macrovision provisions like all the other DVRs do or else decide to not use it and try and explain to customers unaware of such things why channels can not be recorded at all.

As you note, the macrovision is not hard to break, so TiVo will have the license and know that hard core users can have their cake and eat it too. This will be a blip on the radar just like those horrible thumb icons billboard ads that were predicted to fill landfills with TiVo DVRs

interactiveTV · 09-11-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?

I'm not sure how this would be true.

First off, without a Macrovision license, the WORST that can happen is degredation of the video signal. Without adherence to Macrovision ACP in the Tivo, there is nothing in the ANALOG video signal that could possible force refusal to record. Without a Macrovision IC in the Tivo, how the hell could HBO possibly control in any way what the Tivo records? Try recording a DVD to VHS. The VHS doesn't refuse to record, does it? It just degrades the signal.

Macrovision ACP (APCe) is added to the vido signal and that activation bits instructs the integrated circuit within the cable box (or Tivo) to add ACP to the outgoing analog video. If Tivo did not have a Macrovision license, it would still encode the analog video. It's the quality of that video that could be compromised.

The Macrovision ACP is completely voluntary and is more about being a good corporate citizen. Plugging the analog hole is a near-term issue anyway. And Macrovision ACP is targeted at Video on Demand, not pay channels. HBO does have an on-demand product but if Tivo did not include a Macrovision IC in its products, there is no way the Tivo would refuse to record. That just doesn't make any sense.

There is only an oblique consumer benefit to Tivo licensing Macrovision. The analog restrictions ONLY directly benefit the content rights holders and analog recording restrictions are nothing but a hindrance to consumers. However, since VOD is not broadcast in any traditional sense of the word, allows inherently the ability to (in a limited sense) time-shift (but not archive), and (iirc) only includes a SINGLE view license, it wouldn't be that difficult to show economic harm from allowing PVR recording and there would be minimal (really if ANY) protection under Betamax.

Your "fact" above still appears to be less factual based on how Macrovision actually works. Without compliance (the Macrovision IC) to ACP, the worst that can happen is a degraded video signal. I fail to see how any encoding to an analog video signal could possible control the actual recording (yes/no/time limit) of a program in a Tivo without the ACP chip. That type of control must be added to the OS.

_ITV

Justin Thyme · 09-11-2005, 08:06 PM

We don't really know that the OP's phenomenon is due to Macrovision and not CGMS, but in any case, this is not a question that has anything to do with macrovision scrambling.

It also has nothing to do with being a good corporate citizen. DVR producers are being forced to bend over, and they have no choice. The content owners are creating interlocking requirements. Want to produce a Tivo that plays or writes DVDs? You need a CSS license. You want a CSS license? CSS requires a Macrovision license. You want a Macrovision license- you have to obey content flags. Macrovision license requires you to obey the copy never flag, to obey the flag that says delete the content within 24 hours of being viewed, and the flag that says you can watch as many times as you like, but the content must be deleted after 7 days. I wouldn't at all be surprized if DTCP and CGMS is all interlocked together too.

The macrovision flags are no big mystery- it's documented on the Tivo site:

The content industry is attempting to paint CE vendors into a corner with these interlocking licenses.

Hollywood's problem is that those flags and protections can very simply be removed from analog input signals. If something happens to the signal and Tivo doesn't see the flag, then your Tivo will very happily not exhibit any of these automatic deletion features- further- they are fully compliant with their licenses so they can't be sued into oblivion over something they have no knowlege of, or participation with. Analog is not going away anytime soon, so as I said... Much ado about nothing.

"Plugging the analog hole" is a pathetic fantasy. As long as we still have devices capable of recording analog signals, the content industry will be unable to fulfill a strategy of coercing both consumers and the CE industry. Technically, it is a ludicrous task. Macrovision is running around getting Roxio, Nvidia, etc etc to obey their rules but it is hopeless. Only one unplugged leak and the ship is sunk. Even if they somehow could, what are they thinking? That HD camcorders are not going to soon enough cost $300, and that someone won't get the highly sophisticated idea of pointing their camcorder at their 50 inch electronic display? How will they ever prevent widespread sharing of such HD copies on the net in an anonymous fashion? No- ultimately they have no technical leverage for a coercive strategy.

They will instead have to rely on good will.

Right now, they are doing a very poor job of it.