Will the HR10-250 EVER get the 6.2 Update ?? - Page 11

richierich · 01-10-2006, 12:21 PM

I have worked for over 25 Fortune 500 companies as a computer consultant and I have seen them waste money getting rid of good systems that didn't make sense. Someone up top said our direction is to distance ourselves from Tivo and let's move on with out own product/platform/spec/software etc. that we can totally control and quit spending money on a product that is slated to be legacy product. Let's put all of our resources to making OUR PRODUCT the best that is out there so we can better compete with Comcast and others out there in the market place. It always boils down to money.

Are you going to bail because they don't go to 6.2, I doubt it. So they lose nothing and gain those resources that they would spend on Tivo upgrading their software which they can now use on developing their own product. That is how departmental budgets are developed and managed.

Mark Lopez · 01-10-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richierich

Someone up top said our direction is to distance ourselves from Tivo and let's move on with out own product/platform/spec/software etc. that we can totally control and quit spending money on a product that is slated to be legacy product.

Is that a fact or just speculation on your part? I remember not too long ago when the HD major networks were coming to DirecTV (national feeds) and everyone swore there was no way ABC (or one of networks, I don't recall for sure) was going to happen. And poof, there it was a few weeks later. My point is that you may be right and we will never see any more updates, but given DirecTV's history on doing the unexpected, I would not totally rule it out. And I'm still not convinced that it's not in their best interest $$ wise to do it.

AbMagFab · 01-10-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richierich

Are you going to bail because they don't go to 6.2, I doubt it. So they lose nothing and gain those resources that they would spend on Tivo upgrading their software which they can now use on developing their own product. That is how departmental budgets are developed and managed.

See, that's where they are guessing wrong. With FIOS/Fiber TV (which is CableCard compatible), and the Series 3 SA HD Tivo, (and the possible 6412 port of Tivo), most of us early adopters will jump ship. Heck, I'll probably jump ship when the Series 3 is available (or 6412 Tivo), even if that means my local Comcast. Then I'll jump from Comcast when FIOS TV is available if Comcast continues to lag (right now they beat out DirecTV on HD).

DirecTV has nothing to retain us anymore. They crippled then dumped Tivo, which had both loyalty and solid functionality. They've compressed and downrezzed HD to the point that it's near DVD-quality, resulting in no-faith responses to the MPEG-4 rollout from most of their high-end customers. They've failed to deliver on new national HD channels year after year (we're now 2+ years after they said they'd double their HD programming, with nothing but UHD and ESPN2 to show for it).

DirecTV is finished with the high-end crowd. And the high-end crowd are the leaders and influencers for the medium- and low-end crowd. It won't be immediate, but DirecTV will be a may-pop provider in the not-too-distant future.

richierich · 01-10-2006, 02:11 PM

They have lost a lot of credibility because they never share any info with us. They never let us know that they acknowledge a problem and that they are working on it and what the tentative roll-out date will be. How difficult would that be? Keep your best customers happy and informed. You are right about doubling HD and what did we get ESPN-2 HD and UHD, big deal. I hardly ever watch either one because I am not into basketball or whatever they show on ESPN-2 HD. I hardly ever watch UHD. Thank GOD I have OTA HD locals because I don't even care if they come out with their MPEG-4 HD DVR, it will probably have so many bugs that it will take them a couple of years to fix them and guess what. They will not even admit there is a problem, much less let us know when they plan on fixing them.

I can't wait until it comes out so I can watch all of you guys that get it start complaining about it quality and bugs, etc. Maybe I will get one after it has been out a couple of years and they have all the bugs fixed, by then it will be cheap. All you will get with it is HD locals and I get that now for FREE!!!! YAWN!!!!! Do I CARE!!!! NAHHHH!!!!

SpankyInChicago · 01-10-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Lopez

Because it's cheaper to dole out an update and reap pure profit from the subs than give away DVRs at a loss? I don't know, maybe it is cheaper to do a swap. I just don't see how, especially if the 'fix' is already done.

The bottom line is that it all does come down to dollars. I can see it going either way.

There is a lot of incentive for a large company to support the smallest set of products possible, just like most large companies have a small number of standard desktop configurations to make IT support easier. And you raise a good point that a swap out from an HR10-250 to an HR20-250 to fix bugs that could be fixed with a software update to the HR10-250 does seem expensive.

So, what is cheaper? Switchout of X number of HR10-250 to HR20-250 over some period of time where some percentage of those swapouts are partially paid for by the customer (2 year commitments, shipping charges, $99 upgrade fee, etc.) combined with the reduced support expenses for two models? Or is it cheaper to support two models?

If the promises of a free "upgrade" to the HR20-250 are legitimate than they have already made the decision (on the books at least) to eat the upgrade costs. If that is the case, then their would be no reason to support the HR10-250 with software upgrades. Customer calls in with a problem with his HR10-250? Switch him out to the HR20-250.

In the end, whatever is cheaper for DirecTV will win out. I would imagine they have an analyst or two that has looked at this problem from many, many angles, built in risk factors, unknowns, applied weighting to different factors, etc., and came up with an answer. One day we will learn what that answer is.

SpankyInChicago · 01-10-2006, 03:34 PM

I've had some in-depth conversations about these topics with a couple guys from Abt Electronics' custom install department. These are guys out doing and selling multi-ten and multi-hundred thousand dollar installs and they all talk really poorly about DirecTV now. DirecTV was once a favored product of high end installs, now (in the Chicago market) it is looked down upon as an inferior product. I had a guy out at my house last Friday to ISF calibrate my TV and he said he can't recall the last time DirecTV was part of one of his jobs.

I have to believe that as this word of mouth filters out from Abt's custom install sales and service people to the 300+ sales people on their main floor that these people will start pushing middle and lower end consumers away from DirecTV.

Here in the Chicago market, Comcast sells "cable packages" inside or Best Buy and Circuit City just the same way that DirecTV does. You can sign up for Comcast at Best Buy just like you can sign up for DirecTV. If / when these guys start to get a bad taste in their mouth about DirecTV they are going to push people away.

Pissing off high end customers can backfire. I believe DirecTV is doing that in hopes that they can make it up in volume. I just can't see why Joe Blow in a major market like Chicago would opt for DirecTV on a new install or even on a switch from cable.

I am trying to think why my mom would switch to DirecTV from Comcast. I can think of none.

Mark Lopez · 01-10-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpankyInChicago

DirecTV was once a favored product of high end installs, now (in the Chicago market) it is looked down upon as an inferior product.

I just can't see why Joe Blow in a major market like Chicago would opt for DirecTV on a new install or even on a switch from cable.

The reason may have nothing to do with DirecTV's business practices as much as 'technology'. Before digital cable, nearly all cable sucked. I had never had cable service that didn't have a crappy picture on at least half of the channels. DirecTV however (at the time) could provide a much better picture. But as cable technology advances and deployment costs remain much lower than launching a new satellite, cable was going to become more 'high end' just by it's nature. However, until digital cable makes it's way out to the rural areas (which may be many years away), DirecTV will still be 'high end' in many parts of the country (like here). But I agree, that in a decent cable area, it seems like a no brainer to go that route.

cheer · 01-10-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpankyInChicago

Pissing off high end customers can backfire. I believe DirecTV is doing that in hopes that they can make it up in volume. I just can't see why Joe Blow in a major market like Chicago would opt for DirecTV on a new install or even on a switch from cable.

I am trying to think why my mom would switch to DirecTV from Comcast. I can think of none.

Cost? At least where I am at, for a multiroom system there's no way Comcast comes close in terms of $$$.

Also, as much as we complain here, I can tell you that D*'s customer service is a significant upgrade over the service I got from Comcast, which basically treated me like crap.

The deployment of fiberTV and IPTV will shake things up, I am sure.

joetoronto · 01-11-2006, 04:58 AM

first of all, directv stopped announcing future plans 2-3 years ago when the launch of a new bird went bad and they ended up holding the bag while they got reamed by everybody in the media and their customers.

since then, they've taken the policy to never announce any major plans.

as far as "hd lite" goes, it wouldn't shock me at all to see them come out with "classic hd" in the near future after everybody else has followed their lead to more hd channels that are compressed.

not only do they have the ability to make the competition follow them but they also have the ability to leave the competition behind when they so desire.

i'm not saying this is what they're going to do, only god knows that but it IS their style.

regarding the 6.2 update, i have a feeling they have had the update ready for months now and that it was going to be used for both the HR10 and the HR20 but they've delayed it because the development of the HR20 hit a few snags.

remember, the HR20 should have been out some time ago now.

as bad as directv is when it comes to customer service, no way, no how they leave existing customers with an HR10 out in the cold, it's just not going to happen.

yes, the directv guide is slow, no doubt about it, it DOES work though.

whenever i hear someone comparing cable to satellite, i stop listening simply because cable is vastly different from provider to provider AND area to area where as satellite is uniform in it's quality no matter where you are.

me, i'd rather stare at a blank wall than watch cable.

richierich · 01-11-2006, 08:52 AM

I'd rather stare at a blank wall than watch cable. That is so funny!!! I agree that cable sucks in my area. I use the Tivo Guide so the slowness does not affect me that much. I would have liked folders and the restructure of the database to speed up processing. Then they could add the other stuff in a followup release. Why wait until you have everything just right. Give us something for now and we'll be happy while we wait for the next release. Folders would be very nice.

bigrig · 01-11-2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:

regarding the 6.2 update, i have a feeling they have had the update ready for months now and that it was going to be used for both the HR10 and the HR20 but they've delayed it because the development of the HR20 hit a few snags.

The NDS DVRs won't use Tivo software.

joetoronto · 01-11-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigrig

The NDS DVRs won't use Tivo software.

are you saying the update couldn't have software for both, bigrig?

bigrig · 01-11-2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joetoronto

are you saying the update couldn't have software for both, bigrig?

Mmmm, no... Just that they will have to use different software. I'm not sure on the specifics on how the updates are deployed.

cheer · 01-11-2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joetoronto

are you saying the update couldn't have software for both, bigrig?

The "6.2 update" for the HR10-250 (if it exists) would not be used at all for the HR20, period, end of story.

Woodinville · 01-15-2006, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheer

The "6.2 update" for the HR10-250 (if it exists) would not be used at all for the HR20, period, end of story.

Maybe the update is coming after all, and Weaknees is right. I have copied an email I received from a DTV CSR, in response to my complaints (3 calls, 3 emails) regarding lack of rebate for my HD-10-250, installed on 9/16 and originally submitted on 10/15. As an aside, and hoping for a credit, I couldn't resist complaining of the lack of 6.2 on my HD, while my SD Hughes has it with folders! I don't think I have ever seen info posted on scheduled upgrades. Hope the CSR is correct.

Dear Mr. ******,

Thanks for writing back. I'm so sorry that you have been having these issues with your DVR. I can understand how frustrated you must feel. Thank you for sending your rebate form and paper work back into DIRECTV. Due to the sheer volume of mail we receive each day, some rebate forms are never processed, either we never receive them, or unfortunately, they become lost in the process. I apologize for your inconvenience in having to resend these forms. As soon as we receive these forms, we will process them and issue you your rebate check.

As for your issues with the DVR 6.2 upgrade. Our records show that your receiver is communicating with us. The last callback being on 01/09/2006. I have checked further into this process and how it works. I found that this upgrade will occur on either 03/07/06, or on 03/18/2006 for your receiver. If your receiver does not have complete upgrade by 03/19/06, please contact our advanced technical team, to do this please call 1-800-531-5000 and select the option for technical support. When a customer service representative answers, tell them you want to speak with an advanced technician that deals with DVR/HD issues and you will be transferred to the proper department.

Thanks again for writing; I apologize for the inconvenience and frustration you have experienced in regards to these matters. We appreciate your continued patience and support while we work to correct these issues as quickly as possible.

Sincerely,

*******
DIRECTV Customer Service

>>>>

I have deleted my name and the CSR's name. Interesting that each email was from a different CSR. Of course what do DTV csr names mean? I mailed my rebate forms to Mr. D.V. Richards and Mr. H.D.V. Roberts.

Oh, and if the update does come thru, I think some credit has to go to the FTC, as I mentioned in my previous email that I had filed a complaint with them.

bjbyers · 01-15-2006, 01:11 AM

IF my DirecTv HR10-250 does receive the upgrade, does that mean the media options (including Tivotogo) will be abailable to me?? Wasnt sure if Tivo said it would not work with DTV because they were not caught up on releases, or for some political/business challenge which had to be sorted out.
Thanks

AbMagFab · 01-15-2006, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodinville

Maybe the update is coming after all, and Weaknees is right. I have copied an email I received from a DTV CSR, in response to my complaints (3 calls, 3 emails) regarding lack of rebate for my HD-10-250, installed on 9/16 and originally submitted on 10/15. As an aside, and hoping for a credit, I couldn't resist complaining of the lack of 6.2 on my HD, while my SD Hughes has it with folders! I don't think I have ever seen info posted on scheduled upgrades. Hope the CSR is correct.

Dear Mr. ******,

Thanks for writing back. I'm so sorry that you have been having these issues with your DVR. I can understand how frustrated you must feel. Thank you for sending your rebate form and paper work back into DIRECTV. Due to the sheer volume of mail we receive each day, some rebate forms are never processed, either we never receive them, or unfortunately, they become lost in the process. I apologize for your inconvenience in having to resend these forms. As soon as we receive these forms, we will process them and issue you your rebate check.

As for your issues with the DVR 6.2 upgrade. Our records show that your receiver is communicating with us. The last callback being on 01/09/2006. I have checked further into this process and how it works. I found that this upgrade will occur on either 03/07/06, or on 03/18/2006 for your receiver. If your receiver does not have complete upgrade by 03/19/06, please contact our advanced technical team, to do this please call 1-800-531-5000 and select the option for technical support. When a customer service representative answers, tell them you want to speak with an advanced technician that deals with DVR/HD issues and you will be transferred to the proper department.

Thanks again for writing; I apologize for the inconvenience and frustration you have experienced in regards to these matters. We appreciate your continued patience and support while we work to correct these issues as quickly as possible.

Sincerely,

*******
DIRECTV Customer Service

>>>>

I have deleted my name and the CSR's name. Interesting that each email was from a different CSR. Of course what do DTV csr names mean? I mailed my rebate forms to Mr. D.V. Richards and Mr. H.D.V. Roberts.

Oh, and if the update does come thru, I think some credit has to go to the FTC, as I mentioned in my previous email that I had filed a complaint with them.

OMG, how many times do CSR's have to be proven completely wrong before people stop posting CSR responses?

Trust me, there isn't an ounce of truth in the above.

jcricket · 01-15-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjbyers

IF my DirecTv HR10-250 does receive the upgrade, does that mean the media options (including Tivotogo) will be abailable to me?? Wasnt sure if Tivo said it would not work with DTV because they were not caught up on releases, or for some political/business challenge which had to be sorted out.
Thanks

Unfortunately, no. You will not get MRV, HMO or TTG with the 6.2 update for your HR10-250. You will get folders in the now-playing screen (as an option) and much improved speed in many operations. Probably some assorted bug fixes. I think that's about it.

From what I've seen of 6.1 on the R10s, the improved speed is worth it by itself. You forget what it's like to not have to wait for everything when all you have is the HR10.

jasch · 01-15-2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

DirecTV wants to delay/prevent any HD Tivo update until their own HD DVR is out. The worse the HD Tivo looks, the better theirs will look. Plain and simple. They have zero motivation to get this update out. And they won't.

If people can sue Apple because of scratches on their iPod Nanos, why can't we sue DirecTV for not keeping the HDTivo DVR up to date with software versions, while all other DTivos were updated 12+ months ago? Specially, with knowledge that the update is being held back.

There must be some kind of protection for the consumer to avoid the comment on the quote above...

richierich · 01-15-2006, 10:24 AM

I think this is just a nice customer service function that is free for us and not a contractual obligation.

pkscout · 01-15-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasch

If people can sue Apple because of scratches on their iPod Nanos, why can't we sue DirecTV for not keeping the HDTivo DVR up to date with software versions, while all other DTivos were updated 12+ months ago? Specially, with knowledge that the update is being held back.

You are free to sue whomever you like in the US. I'm sure there are some attorneys who would love to make money on a class action suit. Of course the lawyers are the only ones who would win. DirecTV would give up a little something and consumers would get even less (probably on the par of one month free of TiVo service from DirecTV).

This argument comes up from time to time. To save time let me summarize both sides.

Side 1: I have a right to all new TiVo features on my DirecTV unit

Side 2: DirecTV never promised any feature upgrades to any of the TiVo units.

I'm sure we will now embark on a 72 page debate of these two sides with absolutely nobody convincing anyone on the other side.

P.S. I think the Nano scratch suit is a piece of garbage, if that gives you any hint which side I tend to fall on with regards to TiVo updates from DirecTV.

jasch · 01-15-2006, 10:28 AM

What about the speed problems? Doesn't DirecTV has a duty to fix the problems with the current versions? They cannot hide the fact that the problem exists and that it is indeed fixable, as it was demostrated with 6.2 on the other DTivo units.

jasch · 01-15-2006, 10:29 AM

BTW, I believe the iPod class action suit is stupid, as I believe most of them are. I was just asking if there was any king of legal leverage that could be used besides suing DTV.

cheer · 01-15-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasch

What about the speed problems? Doesn't DirecTV has a duty to fix the problems with the current versions? They cannot hide the fact that the problem exists and that it is indeed fixable, as it was demostrated with 6.2 on the other DTivo units.

So long as the current software is functional (which it is -- and spare me the arguments about how it isn't because it's so slow) and so long as DirecTV never promised an update, then I can't imagine what legal argument would apply. (I'm not a lawyer, however, and if some lawyer would like to correct me, by all means do so.)

LlamaLarry · 01-15-2006, 04:01 PM

The speed issues aren't problems, they are the way the system works and worked when you bought it. That a new feature was added to the 6.x release that improved performance does not make the designed and expected performance of 3.x a bug.

They didn't fix a bug, they added a feature. They get to decide if it is worth the effort to deploy a new software release/feature to any platform. If you think rolling 6.2 "free" for them then you missed all of the threads when it was sent out to the standard def boxes.

Mark Lopez · 01-15-2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LlamaLarry

.... issues aren't problems, they are the way the system works and worked when you bought it.

They didn't fix a bug, they added a feature.

Imagine the reaction if those statements were made by or in defense of Microsoft.

LlamaLarry · 01-15-2006, 05:07 PM

Would work the same if someone bought Windows ME and bitched that XP came out and they wanted that for free. Wait, people *do* do that.

AbMagFab · 01-15-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LlamaLarry

The speed issues aren't problems, they are the way the system works and worked when you bought it. That a new feature was added to the 6.x release that improved performance does not make the designed and expected performance of 3.x a bug.

They didn't fix a bug, they added a feature. They get to decide if it is worth the effort to deploy a new software release/feature to any platform. If you think rolling 6.2 "free" for them then you missed all of the threads when it was sent out to the standard def boxes.

Wow. Nice revisionist history.

Problem is, DirecTV isn't holding these back due to costs of release, they are holding them back in order to make their own DVR's look better.

Same with the lack of features in the released 6.1/6.2 for the SD DVR's, including HMO and MRV, and now TivoToGo (since the copyright issues clearly weren't the issue, and DirecTV has their own DirecTV2Go).

DirecTV is the bigger fish, and they are stifling innovation to make themselves look better. It's pathetic, but it's one way to make money, and the bulk of their customers won't know the difference.

Fortunately, the Tivo Series 3 will be out soon (likely before the DirecTV MP4 DVR), and FIOS TV is taking over county by county. Heck, at this point, I'd pay Comcast if I could get a Tivo. Whatever is available when the Series 3 is release is where I'm going.

Juppers · 01-15-2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

Wow. Nice revisionist history.

Problem is, DirecTV isn't holding these back due to costs of release, they are holding them back in order to make their own DVR's look better.

Same with the lack of features in the released 6.1/6.2 for the SD DVR's, including HMO and MRV, and now TivoToGo (since the copyright issues clearly weren't the issue, and DirecTV has their own DirecTV2Go).

I don't buy it. These ARE DirecTV's own DVRs. I don't see any other HD DVR available from DTV. I don't see these working with any other provider. They only hurt their new DVRs by poor word of mouth about their current DVRs.

The lack of features with no HMO/MRV in 6.1/6.2 really sounds more like a licensing issue. They didn't want the added cost per unit. They realized they could develop in house the same features and save a bunch of money on licensing since DVRs are becoming mainstream now and no longer a niche product.

lord-dogbert · 01-15-2006, 08:50 PM

Just talked to advanced support, they advise that the original release for 6.2 for the hr10-250 was 3-9-05 and 3-18-05. Looks like the CSR that wrote that email just changed the date to 06.

I am still being blown off on the petition delivery. Showed up and asked for Public Relations, was told that no one is available to come to the lobby. I guess that i'll just have to mail it to the president's office :-(