4 Digit Sky radio channels - Hacking a fix

[Automan]

Will these and the big channel reshuffle upset Tivo?
http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?...ass=193&id=769

Automan.

[sanderton]

What 4 digit channels? No mention of 4 digit channels in that link?

[Automan]

Whoops,
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205802 claims radio channels will have a leading zero making just them four digits.

Automan.

[GarySargent]

TiVo were made aware of this the other day and it is being investigated whether four digit channels can be supported. They can in the current USA software, but possibly not in the UK software.

[sanderton]

As part of one of my TiVo-to_Tivo show transfer hacks, I create a dummy recording with a dummy channel. To be sure that it didn't interfere with any real channels, I assigned it a channel number of 1000. If I select it from Live TV, TiVo sends 1-0-0-0 with no problems, so 4 digit numbers are no problem per se

I guess the only issue might be leading zeros?

[the_hut]

Originally Posted by sanderton

I guess the only issue might be leading zeros?

Sorry to be dense, but could you elaborate on this?

[sanderton]

I don't know if TiVo treats the channel number as an integer or a string. If the latter "0123" won't be a problem, if the former it will be as the database will store 123. There's a TiVo menu option to pad with leading zeros, but I presume it just pads to three didgits.

I can see how to do a Q&D hack if it is a problem.

[Automan]

I can't imagine Tivo USA wanting to try and update old / obsolete code.

Also an automatic software upgrade would cause quite a few Tivo owners with modified hardware quite a few problems.

I would suspect
Tivo's with > 160Gb drives would fail to boot after the upgrade.
Loaded extras for web access / auto padding / red dot removal would need fixing.

Two version of the software would also be needed. One with teletext subtitle support and the other without (or a menu option to turn it on).

Automan.

Originally Posted by scoopuk

Well it needs to be.

The TiVo service is great at supporting recording of radio programmes, almost as important for me as the TV channels.

If the UK software needs a tweak and a minor upgrade so be it. It needs to be done by Tivo and downloaded to our boxes, not everyone is a computer hacker or IT expert, some of us mortals on here are just Tivo customers.

Remember it's TIVO boxes which are supposed to be unavailable here, not our Tivo service which we're still paying monthly for.

[iankb]

Originally Posted by Automan

... an automatic software upgrade would cause quite a few Tivo owners with modified hardware quite a few problems ...

... Tivo's with > 160Gb drives would fail to boot after the upgrade.

If they had any sense, they would include a large-drive kernel within the update.

[ozsat]

It is (99%) confirmed the radio channels will be four-digit - it is not yet confirmed that all tv channels will stay as three digit. Some of the minority channels may also be 4-digit.

Also, Sky currently requires all digits to be sent (including leading zeroes). This may mean that if BBC1 is still on 101 - then 0101 may have to be sent.

Currently, if you want a tv channel on sky that is less than 100 in the EPG - you have to send all the digits. so for channel 051 - if TiVo only sends 51 - then the Sky box times out waiting for the third digit.

[sanderton]

Hmm. Every time I try to set up a channel with a leading zero, tivosh interprets the 0 as meaning the number is in hex, so 0200 is stored as 128...

[the_hut]

This does not look good. Sanderton's software development has been superior to Tivo Inc's for years (look at endpad!) so if he can't see it working then.......

[sanderton]

Double hmm. It seems to store the channel number as an integer, ie 1-32000-ish. So while 4 figure channels are no problem, 4 figure channels beginning with a 0 are. And because the maximum is 32k, my instant though of a workaround sending an eight digit number won't work.

[ozsat]

I have been told by Sky on several occasions that boxes can stop receiving software updates as they get older - volitile memory becomes useless.

I guess such boxes will also be unable to use these numbers.

[ozsat]

Techically, TiVo should be able to cope even if it means a software download - as they have four-digit numbers in the US.

[kitschcamp]

Originally Posted by sanderton

Double hmm. It seems to store the channel number as an integer, ie 1-32000-ish. So while 4 figure channels are no problem, 4 figure channels beginning with a 0 are. And because the maximum is 32k, my instant though of a workaround sending an eight digit number won't work.

Ok, not an elegant workaround, but it could work... Could the IR codes for, for example, 0 and 1 be swapped around, and change all the channel numbers accordingly?

So. for example, channel 0103 would appear to be channel 1013 on the Tivo, and channel 0074 would appear as channel 1174 on the Tivo?

[ericd121]

It would be nice if they could only send any software change ('upgrade' ) to TiVos that download Sky listings;
however, I have backed up my /var/hack dirs just in case.

[GarySargent]

The workaround would be to change the "Sky" command that is sent before each channel change to send "Sky, Zero" which would allow all four digit channels starting with zero to be accessed. This can be easily done.

[sanderton]

Kitchcamp's idea could work, I think. Your won't Gary, as if you tiired to select TV channel 123 or 1234 you'd get radio channel 0123

[GarySargent]

Sanderton not sure if you were replying to me, but scenarios are:

1) Normal TV channels still use 3 digits

Solution: TiVo does not change anything

2) Normal TV channels now use four digits, so BBC1 is 0101

Solution: TiVo sends zero before each channel change like it does the Sky command.
Issues: For channel 1001 TiVo would send 01001 which might not work.

As is now, does 0101 change to BBC1 on a Sky box?

[sanderton]

The RADIO channels will start with a 0; the TV channels will not, so that idea won't work I'm afraid.

1) is no solution as we won't be able to record radio.

[GarySargent]

If you mean the scenario would be channels as follows:

101 = BBC1 TV
0101 = Radio 1

Then yes the TiVo software as is could not handle this.

The only possible way around (and it would be very hard if at all possible) would be to setup a dual tuner configuration where both tuners use the SCART. This would allow the radio channels on one tuner (sending a zero prepend), and the TV channels on the other (no prepend). This is too complex for the average user though.

[sanderton]

That's how I read teh satements to date, yes.

That's an interesting approach.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, and then get hacking if TiVo don't fix it for us.

Certainly a good time to back up your hacks!

[ALanJay]

As I understand it - and as now the new software (if not the channel numbers) have been downloaded to some boxes - TV channels will remain 3 digit so TiVo should countinue to work.

Radio channels will switch to 4 digits the first one being "0" - if you have the new software on your digibox then pushing "0" brings up the "Speaker Icon" then you can add 3 additional digits - of course this doesn't actually do anything useful at the moment.

Originally Posted by sanderton

You won't be able to attach a Sky HD box to a TiVo. It's only analogue out will be component, and it will not downscale HD to SD resolutions.

Not sure that is true - I think that it has been mentioned that there will be a SCART connection for not High Definition devices but intil they release more detail we won't know for certain.

Originally Posted by sanderton

All HD boxes will be PVRs anyway.

This is true so unlikely to be an issue for most

Originally Posted by sanderton

Four digit channels don't need an update per se; the problem is the leading zero.

Indeed from what has been said if they switched to 4 digits for everything it would be less of a problem than the leading 0.

Anyway good to see that people are thinking about this and hopefully there will be a work around possible if not no more recording of radion channels

[aerialplug]

A workaround for us who are able to hack our TiVos may well be possible, however what worries me is that the majority of TiVo users out there will no longer be able to record from radio channels. Will Tribune continue to support the data for a tiny minority of people who've worked out how to get their boxes to record "impossible" channel numbers?

Obviously, there are more than one platforms and radio recording won't be affected on Freeview, but I can definately see the scenario of TiVo asking for the 0xxx channels not to appear on Sky setups since they'll get many people calling customer services asking why the TiVo isn't changing to these channels.

Hmmm - I see another use for the Freeview box that's currently proping open the kitchen door...

[ozsat]

I can't see TiVo carrying the listings for radio channels which it can not access using its own software.

If Radio 1 moves from 851 to 0101 - and TiVo can not access 0101 using its own software - then I would expect Radio 1 listings to be removed.

So a hack would not be much use.

[aerialplug]

Originally Posted by pahunt

Is there any time scale on when Sky will start rolling out the update, or has it already started?

I got the software update on Friday. I spotted it when a channel change failed to work with the first digit being lost when trying to change to 105. I was curious about the "speaker"5 channel I saw it try to change to.

I tried forcing an update on a Sky box here at work - that still hasn't updated to the new software so I guess they're still gradually rolling out the updates for various set top box models (both my home and work boxes are Pace, but different generations).

[sanderton]

Originally Posted by ALanJay

Not sure that is true - I think that it has been mentioned that there will be a SCART connection for not High Definition devices but intil they release more detail we won't know for certain.

That's from the horse's mouth at Sky. Only analogue out is component, and it will not scale the output so SD signal will come out SD and an HD one HD.

[sanderton]

Originally Posted by ozsat

I can't see TiVo carrying the listings for radio channels which it can not access using its own software.

If Radio 1 moves from 851 to 0101 - and TiVo can not access 0101 using its own software - then I would expect Radio 1 listings to be removed.

So a hack would not be much use.

Most of the radio stations are on FreeView, so will still be relevant to TiVo. We might have to change Guided Setup to Sky+ FreeView to make sure the listings are there.

[sanderton]

Originally Posted by ALanJay

Indeed from what has been said if they switched to 4 digits for everything it would be less of a problem than the leading 0.

Yes, you can hack the TiVo to pad to four digits with zeros simply enough. But then you lose the difference between 0101 being Radio 1 and 101 being BBC 1.

Basically, Sky have apparrently chosen the method which will cause the most problems to 3rd part devices. Deliberately? Maybe.

I have to say, it's not an easy one for TiVo to fix. The software will have to know that BBCR1 is radio and therefore it should send 0101 and BBC1 is Tv and it should send 101. AFAIK, there is no flag or other indicator in the TiVo software that agiven channel is radio or TV.

So either they have to add one (quite a big job, and with 20,000 odd paid for downloads an expensive one) or they drop radio.

This one could be tricky. I have some ideas though.