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Old 04-17-2015, 12:15 AM   #1
tgmct
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Adjusting the Tivo clock manually

Back in 2013 there was a thread with the same title. Unfortunately the thread went terribly off topic and it really got confusing trying to identify the possible fixes.

First, let's review the problem... Everybody involved with delivering TV content uses the same time standards using NTP that is traceable all the way back to the atomic clocks at the Naval Observatory. Everybody's equipment is within a couple of milliseconds of the standard. This includes the TiVo time adjustment pushed out to your DVR, the television networks, and the cable companies. BUT there is a delay in the time that actual programming gets from the TV network, through the cable company, all the way out to you. There are a number of valid technical reasons why this takes place but this is really out of scope for this discussion. The fact is that it happens with virtually all cable carriers and typically causes the TiVo DVR's to startup some number of SECONDS BEFORE the TV signal is available for the programming desired.

OK, you may say that skipping through a few seconds of content from the previous show may be a nuisance, but it's something that most of us can deal with. The real problem is at the other end of the recording. The TiVo not only starts up early but it also stops early. So you certainly can't view content that isn't recorded. In the old days this wasn't much of a problem where most of the content at the end of a show was advertising. But the networks have gotten smart and are now avoiding ads at the end of their programs with the hope that you will not switch when you get a taste of the next program that is starting.

Now this delay is pretty much repeatable on all channels and I have yet to experience any drift over many years on a few different TiVos. But not every cable system has the same delay, so it really needs to be adjustable at the end user location. As of today, there is still no configurable way of compensating for this delay in the TiVo settings that I'm aware of. So what are the alternatives?...

1. Add and extra minute or so to the stop time of all your recordings and OnePasses. This sort of works OK for a while until you run out of tuners on your TiVo. I have an Elite with four (4) tuners and I must say that I end up with a fair amount of recordings that end up being clipped due to not enough tuners being available. The bottom line is that this would almost never happen if the need to add extra time to every recording was not necessary. The bottom line is that this is a poor solution that fails often and one we shouldn't really be required to deal with.

2. Get our good friends at TiVo to add a new configuration setting to allow adjustment of the local TiVo time. Well, I've certainly suggested this to TiVo support but so far they are reluctant to even admit there is an issue. When you are lucky enough to get somebody that understands the issue (and is probably familiar with it anyway); they point you to item #1 to 'solve' your problem. It seems to me that the good folks at TiVo are probably well aware with this issue and have been reluctant to provide any 'fix' for this other than what we have already because of the support issues it could potentially generate. Some users would not necessarily understand the configurable and would call support to ask questions regarding what it for. BUT... I suspect TiVo management would be much more inclined to do something about it if enough people contacted them and complained. So what is the threshold of 'enough'?... Good question. I suspect that this could be bandied about pretty good in this thread.

3. Come up with a reliable hack to fix it for ourselves. This obviously requires varying levels of expertise but it seems doable. But there are a variety of issues that come up surrounding this. Any hardware modifications should be avoided so that warranties don't get impacted and to generally reduce the need of acquiring parts and/or costly hardware modification equipment. But if a software fix is in order, then it needs to be as easy and semi-permanent as possible. What I mean by this is that it would be best if we we could get by with some sort of key combination on the remote, but I suspect that this is unavailable currently. I've read about old hacks involving removing the drive and booting it up on a linux based pc. Not necessarily a bad way to go, but difficult for most users who don't know what linux is let alone any knowledge of it, and most don't have a clue how to remove a hard drive and connect it let alone configure it to be accessed on another machine. Not an out of the question modification for some of us though BUT, BUT, BUT... we certainly don't want to do this every time that TiVo sends out a service update!

I can't think of any other potential fixes but I certainly don't know everything. Lets see what the masses here think...


Last edited by tgmct; 04-17-2015 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 04-17-2015, 09:57 AM   #2
lew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgmct View Post
Back in 2013 there was a thread with the same title. Unfortunately the thread went terribly off topic and it really got confusing trying to identify the possible fixes.

First, let's review the problem... Everybody involved with delivering TV content uses the same time standards using NTP that is traceable all the way back to the atomic clocks at the Naval Observatory. Everybody's equipment is within a couple of milliseconds of the standard. This includes the TiVo time adjustment pushed out to your DVR, the television networks, and the cable companies. BUT there is a delay in the time that actual programming gets from the TV network, through the cable company, all the way out to you. There are a number of valid technical reasons why this takes place but this is really out of scope for this discussion. The fact is that it happens with virtually all cable carriers and typically causes the TiVo DVR's to startup some number of SECONDS BEFORE the TV signal is available for the programming desired.

OK, you may say that skipping through a few seconds of content from the previous show may be a nuisance, but it's something that most of us can deal with. The real problem is at the other end of the recording. The TiVo not only starts up early but it also stops early. So you certainly can't view content that isn't recorded. In the old days this wasn't much of a problem where most of the content at the end of a show was advertising. But the networks have gotten smart and are now avoiding ads at the end of their programs with the hope that you will not switch when you get a taste of the next program that is starting.

Now this delay is pretty much repeatable on all channels and I have yet to experience any drift over many years on a few different TiVos. But not every cable system has the same delay, so it really needs to be adjustable at the end user location. As of today, there is still no configurable way of compensating for this delay in the TiVo settings that I'm aware of. So what are the alternatives?...

1. Add and extra minute or so to the stop time of all your recordings and OnePasses. This sort of works OK for a while until you run out of tuners on your TiVo. I have an Elite with four (4) tuners and I must say that I end up with a fair amount of recordings that end up being clipped due to not enough tuners being available. The bottom line is that this would almost never happen if the need to add extra time to every recording was not necessary. The bottom line is that this is a poor solution that fails often and one we shouldn't really be required to deal with.

2. Get our good friends at TiVo to add a new configuration setting to allow adjustment of the local TiVo time. Well, I've certainly suggested this to TiVo support but so far they are reluctant to even admit there is an issue. When you are lucky enough to get somebody that understands the issue (and is probably familiar with it anyway); they point you to item #1 to 'solve' your problem. It seems to me that the good folks at TiVo are probably well aware with this issue and have been reluctant to provide any 'fix' for this other than what we have already because of the support issues it could potentially generate. Some users would not necessarily understand the configurable and would call support to ask questions regarding what it for. BUT... I suspect TiVo management would be much more inclined to do something about it if enough people contacted them and complained. So what is the threshold of 'enough'?... Good question. I suspect that this could be bandied about pretty good in this thread.

3. Come up with a reliable hack to fix it for ourselves. This obviously requires varying levels of expertise but it seems doable. But there are a variety of issues that come up surrounding this. Any hardware modifications should be avoided so that warranties don't get impacted and to generally reduce the need of acquiring parts and/or costly hardware modification equipment. But if a software fix is in order, then it needs to be as easy and semi-permanent as possible. What I mean by this is that it would be best if we we could get by with some sort of key combination on the remote, but I suspect that this is unavailable currently. I've read about old hacks involving removing the drive and booting it up on a linux based pc. Not necessarily a bad way to go, but difficult for most users who don't know what linux is let alone any knowledge of it, and most don't have a clue how to remove a hard drive and connect it let alone configure it to be accessed on another machine. Not an out of the question modification for some of us though BUT, BUT, BUT... we certainly don't want to do this every time that TiVo sends out a service update!

I can't think of any other potential fixes but I certainly don't know everything. Lets see what the masses here think...
I don't agree with your premise. I have Fios. Network shows start and stop recording correctly. I understand our cable company gets the signal via fiber optic cable directly from the station and not via satellite. I do experience the delay you mention on some cable channels. I don't know, nor care, if the difference is due to satellite delay or if is an intentional run on between shows aired in a block.

Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.

In my case the only shows that have the issue are with cable shows,which air multiple times. If necessary I'll record a later showing so as to avoid conflicts.

I understand you'd prefer a different solution but I doubt you'll be seeing one.

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Old 04-17-2015, 10:36 AM   #3
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An adjustment factor from Tivo would be great. That way I don't have to see the last 30 seconds of the previous show every time I watch a recorded show.

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Old 04-17-2015, 12:01 PM   #4
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i very rarely see any issues, and when they happen they can generally be traced back to a specific channel/program (using comcast).

is this happening daily to your recordings, across all channels?

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Old 04-17-2015, 02:19 PM   #5
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Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.
Are you sure about this? If they added soft padding I've yet to see any effect. I've had TiVos since early S2 and no changes with the recording timing issues I mentioned in the first post. Now, I've only had Comcast as a provider although in several locations with different head ends.

Quote:
In my case the only shows that have the issue are with cable shows, which air multiple times. If necessary I'll record a later showing so as to avoid conflicts.
In some cases this will work but it requires manual intervention. TiVo will automatically record a later showing of the same episode but only if the entire broadcast is impacted by OnePass priorities. If only clipping is involved, it will just clip it and NOT select a later time.

This is also true if you have multiple shows record from the same channel but run out of tuners for some reason. For example, I add an hour of padding to the CBS's Sunday night lineup shows where there is a pretty good chance that sports programming will run overtime. If you have enough tuners you will duplicate, which is OK; but if not, TiVo will simply clip the hour off, so you have to be very careful to watch things in order and keep the previous program until you watch the combination recorded. As it is, I already have these shows at the top of the OnePass priority list where they won't be repeated for months. But clipping functionality is not always a priority. BTW... this rationale does not work if one of the episodes gets clipped and one of them is a repeat and will not record because you've already seen it. A new show episode is useless with the first half missing. Not an everyday issue, but usually occurs once or twice a year.

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Old 04-17-2015, 03:09 PM   #6
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I don't agree with your premise. I have Fios. Network shows start and stop recording correctly. I understand our cable company gets the signal via fiber optic cable directly from the station and not via satellite. I do experience the delay you mention on some cable channels. I don't know, nor care, if the difference is due to satellite delay or if is an intentional run on between shows aired in a block.

Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.

In my case the only shows that have the issue are with cable shows,which air multiple times. If necessary I'll record a later showing so as to avoid conflicts.

I understand you'd prefer a different solution but I doubt you'll be seeing one.
We too have Verizon FiOS and see this issue quite regularly. I don't believe that programs scheduled for a certain time, say 9PM, actually start at 9:00:00 PM. Comedy Central, in particular, ALWAYS seems to both start and end late. We have resorted to the "fix" of making "Stop 1 minute later" the default setting on our TiVos. Since we have 2 Roamio Pros we don't often have a tuner shortage problem (except on Sunday nights during certain times of the year), but it does make trying to calculate tuner availability a bit more complicated.

TiVo does NOT do any sort of "soft" (i.e. automatically managed) padding. DirecTV DVRs do and it was the biggest difference we had to adjust to when we switched to FiOS and TiVos. For the first few weeks we missed the last 30 seconds or so of nearly EVERY recording.

Personally, I don't think we need to change the clock - just add a "Start 1 minute late" option to the 'start early' options.

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Old 04-17-2015, 05:10 PM   #7
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15-second padding

One simple fix TiVo could implement is adding options to pad recordings with 15 or 30 seconds instead of one minute. I donít want a systemwide clock adjustment because the problem is only severe enough to notice on certain channels. I'd rather miss a few seconds of a lower priority conflicting show than a full minute.

I've submitted this idea as a feature request numerous times and I'm confused why TiVo can't simply add a couple more entries to the existing padding options.

--------------------------------------------------

Feature request form:
http://advisors.tivo.com/wix5/p2272893819.aspx

I wish my TiVo could do this:
Add 15 or 30 seconds of padding to scheduled recordings.

Here is the reason why:
Programs on certain channels, such as Discovery and History, are consistently cut off at the last 10 seconds as final narration is still in progress. I want to pad programs on these problematic channels with just a few extra seconds rather than a full minute.

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Old 04-17-2015, 07:10 PM   #8
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One simple fix TiVo could implement is adding options to pad recordings with 15 or 30 seconds instead of one minute. I donít want a systemwide clock adjustment because the problem is only severe enough to notice on certain channels. I'd rather miss a few seconds of a lower priority conflicting show than a full minute.
This is actually a good solution but lets take it a step further... How about a pad setting of "Custom" and then allow the user to set it to anything in say the range of 0 seconds all the way up to 999 minutes - 59 seconds. There are some standard programming libraries out there that have this functionality and the screen graphics too.

Quote:
I've submitted this idea as a feature request numerous times and I'm confused why TiVo can't simply add a couple more entries to the existing padding options.
I really don't understand why TiVo doesn't act on a lot more feature requests. There are a lot of DVRs available out there for less money. So it makes sense for TiVo to do it better instead of playing catch up. As a minimum they need to market a DVR that has all of the features of DVR's available from TV providers plus some. It's not just the amount of tuners and storage space.


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Old 04-17-2015, 11:12 PM   #9
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Tivo listened to customers. Tivo implemented a solution. They added "soft padding". Fudging the clock is going to cause as many problems as it solves.
No, what TiVo has is hard padding. The ability to manually add minutes before or after a recording. That's hard padding.

Soft padding is where the DVR attempts to automatically add a minute before & after a recording if there is no tuner conflict. DirecTV does this. (And I love it! Wish my TiVos had it)

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Old 04-18-2015, 02:10 AM   #10
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It's possible to modify the Tivo system clock by rewriting the network / NTP traffic.

(this requires a router that can do redirects)


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Old 04-18-2015, 04:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by MHunter1 View Post
One simple fix TiVo could implement is adding options to pad recordings with 15 or 30 seconds instead of one minute. I don’t want a systemwide clock adjustment because the problem is only severe enough to notice on certain channels. I'd rather miss a few seconds of a lower priority conflicting show than a full minute.

I've submitted this idea as a feature request numerous times and I'm confused why TiVo can't simply add a couple more entries to the existing padding options.
What would be the benefit of padding only 15 or 30 seconds instead of a full minute? Padding of any amount will cause a tuner conflict, so it wouldn't help you make any more recording; the only benefit would be to 45 seconds less recording space per recording at the cost of a more complicated user interface. I don't see that you've made a business case for such an enhancement.

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Old 04-18-2015, 06:52 AM   #12
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Actually, stations generally do start on time. However, cable stations when they do their digital channel encoding, the encoder adds 5-10 seconds lag to the feed. If it comes from a satellite rather than fiber optic, it could add another 5 seconds to the delay. If it travels over the public IP network like the Internet, that could be another 2-3 seconds of buffering.

Or if you use satellite, another 5 seconds delay.

You can easily tell this during a major sporting event - Olympics, Super Bowl, etc. Go out on the street, and listen to the cheers. You'll usually catch at least two distinct waves of cheering depending on how they get their TV - first the OTA crowd cheers, then the cable, then the phone companies and satellite folks.

The real problem is that stations are doing anti-DVR things - like eliminating the block of ads between the end of the program and the start of the next program, instead butting them up. Some even intentionally delay the start and end of a show by a minute or lie about their starting and ending times. E.g., if it says it runs 9:00-10:00, they'll actually start at 8:59 and end at 10:01 and not actually announce it.

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Old 04-19-2015, 10:13 AM   #13
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No, what TiVo has is hard padding. The ability to manually add minutes before or after a recording. That's hard padding.

Soft padding is where the DVR attempts to automatically add a minute before & after a recording if there is no tuner conflict. DirecTV does this. (And I love it! Wish my TiVos had it)
Tivo implemented soft padding differently then DirecTV. Tivo will let you clip the lower priority show if there is a conflict.

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Old 04-19-2015, 06:14 PM   #14
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Tivo implemented soft padding differently then DirecTV. Tivo will let you clip the lower priority show if there is a conflict.
Ok semantics. I don't think anyone here would call that soft padding.

But you are correct, TiVo does have clipping available, and the option to turn it on or off.

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Old 04-20-2015, 12:50 PM   #15
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Tivo implemented soft padding differently then DirecTV. Tivo will let you clip the lower priority show if there is a conflict.
"Clipping" is the opposite of "padding." In padding you ADD time, in clipping you CUT it off.

TiVos do NOT do soft padding.

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Old 04-22-2015, 01:36 PM   #16
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"Clipping" is the opposite of "padding." In padding you ADD time, in clipping you CUT it off.

TiVos do NOT do soft padding.
astrohip understands my point. Astohip doesn't think tivo's implementation of padding and clipping is a form of soft padding. There isn't a definitive definition of soft padding. We can disagree.

Your statement is wrong.

Assume I have 2 tuners. I'm recording 2 shows at 9p. I'm recording a lower priority show at 8p. I've added 2 minutes to the 8p show.

Old system. Hard padding. There are 3 shows scheduled to record between 9 and 9:02. Tivo won't record the lowest priority show.

Astrohip's definition of soft padding. My 8p show consists of 60 minutes of show and 2 minutes soft padding. The 2 minute padding will be skipped. My recording will be 60 minutes.

Tivo's current system. My recording is scheduled to be 62 minutes. 60 minutes via the program data plus 2 minutes padding. Clipping means the last 2 minutes won't be recorded. My recording will be the same 60 minutes.

The result is the same, not opposite.

Worf identified the real issue. The delay varies depending on program source. Some stations have satellite delay. Some programs intentionally go over. The only reliable solution is to purchase more tuners. There isn't an automatic solution which works. Some shows blend into the next time slot. Many don't. Some shows begin with "previously....". Some shows end with coming attraction and even commercials.

My point is tivo offered a solution which has valid reasons.

I wish tivo offered an "advanced settings" menu. Let people customize padding options. Give us the option to have negative padding. Start a show late or end early. No doubt we could come up with a dozen features which make sense to some users.

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Old 04-22-2015, 03:56 PM   #17
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The main broadcast - let me call them first tier channels rarely offset programming. The lower tier channels like Comedy Central do it on purpose. Spoofing the clock might work on one channel, but not others.

You would need the ability to create a default offset by channel...

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Old 04-22-2015, 11:36 PM   #18
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astrohip understands my point. Astohip doesn't think tivo's implementation of padding and clipping is a form of soft padding. There isn't a definitive definition of soft padding. We can disagree.
<snip>
Astrohip's definition of soft padding. My 8p show consists of 60 minutes of show and 2 minutes soft padding. The 2 minute padding will be skipped. My recording will be 60 minutes.
No, that's not at all what I said. I said "semantics", because you're using the phrase differently than how all the rest of us use it (and I do mean ALL the rest of us). It was a polite way of saying it ain't soft padding, but if you want to think it is, ok.

But it's clipping, not padding.

TiVos don't do soft padding. If you hard pad a show, and clipping cuts it, then clipping cut it. It's not a backdoor soft padding. And that's not semantics.

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Old 04-24-2015, 05:35 PM   #19
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astrohip understands my point. Astohip doesn't think tivo's implementation of padding and clipping is a form of soft padding. There isn't a definitive definition of soft padding. We can disagree.

Your statement is wrong.
As used by Myth, DirecTV, Dish Network and Arris, "soft padding" is a feature that adds time to the start and/or end of a recording automatically, if possible (i.e. there are no other demands for the tuner in use).

TiVo does not do soft padding, they do hard padding (you, the user decides how much time to add) and hard clipping (the TiVo ignores your time extension) if there is another request for that tuner, and assuming you don't select "No, cancel the lower priority program" under Overlap Protection.

The result is not the same...with soft padding I don't have to do anything to get my recordings padded. The DVR manages it intelligently.

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Old 04-25-2015, 08:30 AM   #20
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As used by Myth, DirecTV, Dish Network and Arris, "soft padding" is a feature that adds time to the start and/or end of a recording automatically, if possible (i.e. there are no other demands for the tuner in use).

TiVo does not do soft padding, they do hard padding (you, the user decides how much time to add) and hard clipping (the TiVo ignores your time extension) if there is another request for that tuner, and assuming you don't select "No, cancel the lower priority program" under Overlap Protection.

The result is not the same...with soft padding I don't have to do anything to get my recordings padded. The DVR manages it intelligently.

Thank you for that clear and straightforward explanation.

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Old 07-07-2015, 11:35 PM   #21
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I am on Optimum.
EVERY digital non Basic program ( that should start at hour/half) starts 12 seconds late. EVERY!
I can be on Basic watch program start and go to digital and wait seconds for start.
This is simply an electronics factor of time required to recode channel into multi channel digital stream, distribute and then time to decode back to single channel. It, at this time, seems pretty constant at 12 sec on OOL. Go check. Even longer delta from OTA.
To offer a delay pad that would affect all programs in seconds up to X should not be a significant task. ( Time + X from clock (that is not visible....LOL)
EVERY show I watch starts late 12 secs. and to pad I have to add 1 minute because Tivo has never listened to this constant complaint.
Yes i know with six tuners it should not be a problem with all that storage but it is a significant annoyance that is long overdue to be fixed.
As a reality example... I do NOT want to see Sharpton at beginning of Matthews, and i don't want to go to Hayes to see end of Matthews editorial. (Note not prejudice, just abhor Sharpton) (also note I record Hayes also and Maddow) BUT it is an aggrevation and inconvenience to have to pieces program back together on what should be a state of art product trying to gain larger foothold in market.
Tho I am new to Tivo I used Replay for years and remember some featzures still not available on Tivo like auto delay start of registered program, and of course commercial skip without many many button presses.
I also compare to many years of SA DVR. I also have experience with analog and digital HDHOMRUN with CableCards. Of course Tivo has many contemporary and great features but does not seem forward thinking enough to warrant their pricing for the masses without listening and developing quicker.


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Old 07-07-2015, 11:45 PM   #22
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Sorry, I went back and reread the thread and found that what Diana says about soft and hard padding is what I am talking about to some degree.
Soft padding will start and stop from cues provided by broadcast. Like my TVReplay would do on Sunday nights on CBS.
Hard padding is strictly time based and starts/ends programs strictly (and outside reality).
If Tivo cannot program soft padding, they need to provide an Advanced user a way to start modifying hard padding to meet the realities of technologies.

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Old 07-15-2015, 01:07 PM   #23
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On my old Series1, I used the "endpad" app with a "negative 10 second" begin- and end-adjustment to handle this very thing - was tired of the last 5-8 seconds of every other show being cut off. Both the start and stop of the recording was set back by 10 seconds, no recordings were clipped, everything "just worked", and most importantly -- The Wife was happy.

That is on Cable, however, where multiple re-encoding of video streams during transmission can legitimately introduce several seconds of delay. Haven't needed to do it when recording Over The Air with my new Roamio -- and it's a good thing, since tweaking the Roamio isn't easy (to put things mildly).

So I can add my voice to this as well - I would *love* to see a setting that was a simple time offset for the recording clock. Not soft-padding, hard-padding, or any such thing - just a setting that says e.g. "clock may be locked to x, but start/stop the recordings based on the offset of x+y". That way, you could tweak the system to delay start by 5-10 seconds, and always catch the final punchline...all without breaking anything else that the box does.

By my way of thinking - I'd much rather lose the first 3 seconds of a show as opposed to the last 10. And I'd much rather just "slide" the show instead of padding in order to avoid tuner conflicts and loss of ability to record the following programs.

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Old 07-19-2015, 04:54 PM   #24
myklbear
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Is this not something that interests more people?

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Old 07-23-2015, 03:39 PM   #25
philhu
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Yes it does, I started the original thread years ago. I gave up on this getting implemented.

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Old 07-30-2015, 07:47 PM   #26
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I really don't understand why TiVo doesn't act on a lot more feature requests. There are a lot of DVRs available out there for less money. So it makes sense for TiVo to do it better instead of playing catch up. As a minimum they need to market a DVR that has all of the features of DVR's available from TV providers plus some. It's not just the amount of tuners and storage space.
Simple; because they don't have to since 'by hook or by crook' they acquired most all the patents related to DVR's and have stifled the competition. What little there is, is hand tied.

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Old 08-01-2015, 01:04 PM   #27
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Simple; because they don't have to since 'by hook or by crook' they acquired most all the patents related to DVR's and have stifled the competition. What little there is, is hand tied.
By "hook or crook"? How did TiVo manage to do that illegally as you are implying and how are they stifling competition? They did have court cases for compensation for their patents where competitors were infringing but that does not stifle competition.

And they certainly don't have all the patents related to DVR's as you are stating.

Scott

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Old 08-01-2015, 05:58 PM   #28
videobruce
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The term was "most", not "all".
It stifles competitors causing them to be afraid to bring products out or to try to enhance what they already, fearing lawsuits for some 'twist' in some fine print somewhere from one of the patents TiVo 'acquired' one way or the other.

The dismal selection of DVR's available, or should I say not available is graphic proof this market is at a standstill and has been.

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Old 08-01-2015, 06:15 PM   #29
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Acquired is different than initiated or created. Also, do you have evidence that Tivo refused to license their patents at a reasonable fee? Its not like AT&T with their transistor patent, they were never in that kind of profitable, market dominant position.

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Old 08-02-2015, 12:04 AM   #30
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The term was "most", not "all".
It stifles competitors causing them to be afraid to bring products out or to try to enhance what they already, fearing lawsuits for some 'twist' in some fine print somewhere from one of the patents TiVo 'acquired' one way or the other.

The dismal selection of DVR's available, or should I say not available is graphic proof this market is at a standstill and has been.
The phrase you used was "most all" which would point to almost all of them which isn't even close to being valid. Also TiVo didn't "acquire" the patents by buying other companies. Their patents are from their own inventions just as other companies have patents on new ideas and products that they create.

The current state of the retail DVR market has nothing to do with TiVo's DVR patents. Several companies including Replay, Microsoft and Moxi have had retail DVR's and eventually decided the market was not big or profitable enough to keep producing products. Their decisions to exit the market had anything to do with TiVo's patents.

Scott

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