Tivo and Direcway DW6000 problem

jahern · 07-02-2004, 11:01 PM

I had Tivo SEries 2 working perfectly with Direcway internet using their old 4000-series USB modems and ICS (Internet Connection Sharing)on a Windwos XP PC. I upgraded (hah!) to a DW6000 modem which is also a router and just has a LAN (ethernet port), which I run into a switch. Tivo talks to my LAN fine - I can publish pictures and music, it show a MAC address on setup, etc. But when I test the connection, it says "Negotiation Failed" It must be in the router, because I'm going through the same Direcway satellite, NOC (Network Operation Center) etc. Direcway is no help. Anyone have a cure? Please? :-)
Jud

gfkjr · 07-09-2004, 10:03 PM

I have the same problem, as do all people with DW6000. Do a search for Direcway to see everyone else. As for as I know this problem has no solution and doesn't look like anyone cares about fixing it. Since I have no other internet options I have to use Dway for broadband. I have to keep a home phone just so Tivo can make 1 call a day. Now that's stupid to pay $40 a month for a phone for Tivo to get guide data when I could get it for free with DSL/Cable.

jahern · 07-10-2004, 07:48 AM

To save space, a single thanks to ALL those who have replied and may yet reply to my post about the DW6000 and Tivo. The consensus seems to be: No Go. Unfortunately, most people with DW are a "captive audience;" it's our only semi-high-speed option, so DW doesn't give a #$%&. "We're the phone company - we don't care - we don't have too!"

As I recall, I was billed a one-time $100 for Home Media Option, so I got screwed there, too, since there is nothing to cancel now that it has been made worthless, unless it works with dial-up, and I recall it doesn't.

Again, thanks; misery loves company. ;-)

Jud

csyria · 07-12-2004, 05:30 AM

Why don't you go back through the computer and leave it all connected like before?

FatherTed · 07-12-2004, 07:13 AM

Have you tried www.copperhead.cc ? It's a site specifically dedicated to overcoming problems with DirecWay. Back when I had it I found the site to be very useful.

jahern · 07-12-2004, 12:02 PM

As to why I don't go to the old setup: you send in your old modem pair for $100 credit on the DW6000. And although I suppose it's possible to use ICS with the DW6000, it defeats the main purpose for getting the DW6000 (it's the router, not my PC, which always had to be on for anyone to use the network), and, in any event, I think the "trap" is in the DW6000 itself, so adding ICS to the mix wouldn't help (I don't think).

To the other reply - thanks for the copperhead tip. I went ahead and "donated" $25 just to get satspeed. I had about $60 in Paypal I was trying to zero out, so if it doesn't do much, I'm not too worried. But I'll report back here as to my success with it...

lynnguist · 12-07-2004, 06:01 PM

Hi all,

Thanks for the good information here, I wish I had seen it before. I spent several hours on the phone today with TIVO then with Direcway. Direcway was no help at all, insisting that is a TIVO or DirecTV problem. They had no one that I could talk to that even understood networking (I was guessing that the problem was with the modem itself) so they could not help. Then I found this thread.

So, as of today Dec. 7th, we still cannot download our TIVO info thru the Internet with the DW6000 modem. A costly problem for us because we have three Series 2's and the long distance calls we have to make to keep them updated will run about $40-$45 per month.

eibgrad · 12-14-2004, 06:17 PM

Hmm..., to be honest, I know NOTHING about this modem/router, BUT, I'm very familiar w/ networking. If I understand the problem correctly, the Tivo is able to establish itself on the network w/ IP, DNS, etc. (btw, gets config info from where, the router?), can process music and photos, only problem occurs when there's any attempt to access internet.

Just looking at this broadly, that would make me think that there is some basic incompatibility (bug) between Tivo and this specific device. It would also make think that the way around it would be to make sure these two devices NEVER talk directly to one another. IOW, if your current config is (assuming "A" is your Tivo, "B" is your modem/router):

"A" <--> "B"

then why not introduce a middleman, logically:

"A" <--> "C" <--> "B"

IOW, assuming some device "C" can communicate w/ "A" and "B", then presumably you could circumvent the problem, correct?

For example, what would happen if you simply introduced a second router for the Tivo, so that it was the second *router* that had to interface directly w/ the Direcway modem/router, and not the Tivo itself?! Your Tivo would essentially be running on a different subnet, with its own DHCP server, NAT, firewall, etc. Then that router would pump traffic down to the Direcway modem/router. What I'm getting at here is, the second upstream router uses NAT, which *changes* the IP stream to some extent, perhaps enough to prevent whatever is causing the *incompatibility* to never reach the Direcway modem/router.

I'm being very general here, because I'm really not familiar w/ the Direcway setup. But that's the kind of solution I would be attempting. I'd be trying to find a way to make sure the Tivo never talks directly w/ the Direcway modem/router. Unless there's just something in the Tivo network stream that always gets passed down and leads to this problem, you would think an upstream router would mask the presence of the Tivo and circumvent the problem.

Not sure that's much help, but all I can provide given what little I know or understand of the problem.

Good luck...

eibgrad

Bigg · 12-14-2004, 07:47 PM

Starband has no DL caps (DWay stilll does right?) and has different mdoems and such....
Try using a cheap dial-in isp with a local # and the BB DL through ICS. Then you also have a back-up connection.

cowgirl · 12-26-2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eibgrad
Hmm..., to be honest, I know NOTHING about this modem/router, BUT, I'm very familiar w/ networking. If I understand the problem correctly, the Tivo is able to establish itself on the network w/ IP, DNS, etc. (btw, gets config info from where, the router?), can process music and photos, only problem occurs when there's any attempt to access internet.

Just looking at this broadly, that would make me think that there is some basic incompatibility (bug) between Tivo and this specific device. It would also make think that the way around it would be to make sure these two devices NEVER talk directly to one another. IOW, if your current config is (assuming "A" is your Tivo, "B" is your modem/router):

"A" <--> "B"

then why not introduce a middleman, logically:

"A" <--> "C" <--> "B"

IOW, assuming some device "C" can communicate w/ "A" and "B", then presumably you could circumvent the problem, correct?

For example, what would happen if you simply introduced a second router for the Tivo, so that it was the second *router* that had to interface directly w/ the Direcway modem/router, and not the Tivo itself?! Your Tivo would essentially be running on a different subnet, with its own DHCP server, NAT, firewall, etc. Then that router would pump traffic down to the Direcway modem/router. What I'm getting at here is, the second upstream router uses NAT, which *changes* the IP stream to some extent, perhaps enough to prevent whatever is causing the *incompatibility* to never reach the Direcway modem/router.

I'm being very general here, because I'm really not familiar w/ the Direcway setup. But that's the kind of solution I would be attempting. I'd be trying to find a way to make sure the Tivo never talks directly w/ the Direcway modem/router. Unless there's just something in the Tivo network stream that always gets passed down and leads to this problem, you would think an upstream router would mask the presence of the Tivo and circumvent the problem.

Not sure that's much help, but all I can provide given what little I know or understand of the problem.

Good luck...

eibgrad

I'm having the same DirecWay 6000 / Tivo issue. I am currently using a netgear wireless router (set for b & g access). Along with a D-Link USB wireless adapter (from the approved Tivo adapter list). I have set the router with a different subnet than the DirecWay 6000. And have configured my wireless laptop and the wireless USB adapters with static IP addresses within the new subnet. The wireless laptop connects to the internet fine as well as my wired desktop. However the wireless USB adapter connected to the Tivo will not work. It's connected to and can be seen be the LAN. I can see it in the router config, and can ping it from the laptop or desktop, it just will not make a connection to the internet. "Negotiation Fails" every time.

I would think my setup: (DirecWay 6000 -> Netgear Router -> Tivo w/ USB Adapter, would be equivalent to what you are describing above, but it still doesn't work.

Has anyone found or heard of a solution for this yet??????

msulewski · 01-06-2005, 05:08 PM

I talked to the Tech Support team from Skycasters, and they said that there is no port blocking in the DW6000. The ports that Tivo say they use are TCP 2190, UDP 2190, and TCP 8080-8089. When I told Skycasters senior support personnel about the fact that the TIVO has no problem on the DW4000 or DW4020, the only thing they said is different between the 4020 and 6000, is that the DW6000 forces an MTU of 1460. They said that Direcway has decided that 1460 is optimum for Sat internet, and so their proxy will expand MTU packets less than 1460 to that size, and compress larger ones. That is why they suggest that any device that works through the internet have it's MTU setting at 1460. Perhaps if there is a way to force the TIVO to use an MTU of 1460, it might just work.

glenc2004 · 01-06-2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by msulewski
I talked to the Tech Support team from Skycasters, and they said that there is no port blocking in the DW6000. The ports that Tivo say they use are TCP 2190, UDP 2190, and TCP 8080-8089. When I told Skycasters senior support personnel about the fact that the TIVO has no problem on the DW4000 or DW4020, the only thing they said is different between the 4020 and 6000, is that the DW6000 forces an MTU of 1460. They said that Direcway has decided that 1460 is optimum for Sat internet, and so their proxy will expand MTU packets less than 1460 to that size, and compress larger ones. That is why they suggest that any device that works through the internet have it's MTU setting at 1460. Perhaps if there is a way to force the TIVO to use an MTU of 1460, it might just work.

I know nothing about DW but I ran into this problem using a PC based
firewall. It would not negotiate with the servers. I found out the firewall by default filters packets and since TiVo seems to use a non-standard HTTP packet size, the firewall was dropping the packet. Hence it would not communicate. If you upgraded or switched modems you may want to look into this. Sorry I can't be much help. I just know I spent months trying to figure this out and I found the solution here. Don't remember the message though.

Glen

glenc2004 · 01-06-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by glenc2004
I know nothing about DW but I ran into this problem using a PC based
firewall. It would not negotiate with the servers. I found out the firewall by default filters packets and since TiVo seems to use a non-standard HTTP packet size, the firewall was dropping the packet. Hence it would not communicate. If you upgraded or switched modems you may want to look into this. Sorry I can't be much help. I just know I spent months trying to figure this out and I found the solution here. Don't remember the message though.

Glen

Since at this point and time I am unable to post the URL to the message.

The message I was talking about is located in "TiVo Help Center" and the title of the thread is "Networking via Winroute FW 5".

There Steve Heflin discusses what he found out about the http packets and the protocol inspector. I don't know if DW has any type of FW built-in. But it gives you a starting point.

Glen

msulewski · 01-06-2005, 08:34 PM

Glen

The product you talk about is for use with the DW 4000 modem, which uses the local PC to route packet traffic. The DW 4020's, and the DW 6000's have built in routing ability, which on the DW6000, is the problem.

glenc2004 · 01-06-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by msulewski
Glen

The product you talk about is for use with the DW 4000 modem, which uses the local PC to route packet traffic. The DW 4020's, and the DW 6000's have built in routing ability, which on the DW6000, is the problem.

Do you use any sort of Firewall in your network? Or does the DW6000 have a firewall built-in? That's what I was referring to. Many firewalls, pc based or hardware will do some sort of packet inspection. Just something I thought you guys should check into. Good luck!

Glen

ccwf · 01-07-2005, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by msulewski
I talked to the Tech Support team from Skycasters, and they said that there is no port blocking in the DW6000. The ports that Tivo say they use are TCP 2190, UDP 2190, and TCP 8080-8089. When I told Skycasters senior support personnel about the fact that the TIVO has no problem on the DW4000 or DW4020, the only thing they said is different between the 4020 and 6000, is that the DW6000 forces an MTU of 1460. They said that Direcway has decided that 1460 is optimum for Sat internet, and so their proxy will expand MTU packets less than 1460 to that size, and compress larger ones. That is why they suggest that any device that works through the internet have it's MTU setting at 1460. Perhaps if there is a way to force the TIVO to use an MTU of 1460, it might just work.

Could one of the DirecWay 6000 owners please try this out? A smaller MTU can be forced by sticking a router between the TiVo DVR and the DirecWay 6000 with the router configured with an MTU of 1460. If someone with a TiVo DVR, router, and DirecWay 6000 can test and confirm that that works, I'm sure there'll be a lot of happy DW6000 owners.

jahern · 01-07-2005, 03:09 PM

I'm the SOB who started this thread. :-) Thanks for all the noggins working on it. I would try changing the MTU, if I knew how.

My Direcway connects to a Linksys wired switch (EZXS88W), with one line going to the Tivo (and I'm zipping photos and music across to it fine with Tivo Server). Another line goes to a wireless access point (Linksys) WAP54G. I can't seem to get to any configuration screens for either of these to set the MTU, although I'm supposed to be able to browse to it at 192.168.1.1, or 192.168.1..245, depending on what I look at.

If anyone knows how I can set the MTU (presumable on the wired switch?), let me know and I'll try it. The default is 1492, in honor of Chris Columbus, I guess. :-)

Jud

Bigg · 01-07-2005, 04:34 PM

In my BEFSX41, I click on advanced, and then filters is selected. There, the MTU can be set manually. Mine is auto, eveything work CC cable.

Laserfan · 01-07-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ccwf
Could one of the DirecWay 6000 owners please try this out? A smaller MTU can be forced by sticking a router between the TiVo DVR and the DirecWay 6000 with the router configured with an MTU of 1460. If someone with a TiVo DVR, router, and DirecWay 6000 can test and confirm that that works, I'm sure there'll be a lot of happy DW6000 owners.

I have this exact setup, with a Linksys BEFW11S4, and see the MTU is settable under 'Filters'. Will give it a try and report back.

See also my post, before I found this thread, here

The DW6000 uses something called a "Turbo Cache" which requires at least IE to use a "proxy". Could someone look at my post and educate me/us?

ccwf · 01-07-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laserfan
See also my post, before I found this thread, here

The DW6000 uses something called a "Turbo Cache" which requires at least IE to use a "proxy". Could someone look at my post and educate me/us?

Can you telnet to port 80 at, say, www.tivo.com?

Bigg · 01-07-2005, 07:31 PM

Does it work with other browsers and applications? how limiting is the DWAY system? Is ti only TiVo that doesn't work?

jahern · 01-07-2005, 09:05 PM

Tivo's the only problem I've run into... Jud

Laserfan · 01-07-2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ccwf
Can you telnet to port 80 at, say, www.tivo.com?

Well, I tried telnet in WinXP and also TeraTermPro and they just "sit there" as if they're trying to connect. What's this supposed to indicate?

Bigg asked what else it works with. I have thus far tried two PCs running WinXP, two with Win98SE, a combo of FireFox and IE (all set-up w/proxy settings), and these do work. Haven't FTP'ed anything yet. Also I have a Pinnacle ShowCenter (a media player) which can access Web pages and internet radio, and it works without any Proxy settings at all. I just gave it the Gateway ip (in my case the Linky 192.168.1.99) and was Url'ing and radioing w/no problem.

Tried the MTU change on the Linky and still can't get the Tivo to talk.

Uh-oh, just tried to log-on to the Linky and it ain't responding. How can I not access the router and still talk to the 'net.

But I think a clue is that the Linky's outgoing log shows the Tivo trying to get out, but the "port" field is blank. This doesn't seem right.

Laserfan · 01-07-2005, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laserfan
Uh-oh, just tried to log-on to the Linky and it ain't responding. How can I not access the router and still talk to the 'net...

I had fiddled with the proxy setting and had to change it back to "do not use proxy server for addresses beginning with..." 192.168.*.*

I dunno what this proxy stuff is about. I'm gonna find my TCP/IP for Dummies and retire to a nice easy chair...

ccwf · 01-07-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laserfan
I dunno what this proxy stuff is about.

It means that, despite what the techs above posted, they are blocking port 80 and forcing you to send all traffic for that port (normal WWW traffic) via a proxy instead. This is what I figured. (In other words, I figured the techs didn't know what they were talking about.)

So, to get around this problem, you'll need a much more complicated solution. You would need to setup a transparent HTTP/1.1 proxy (not HTTP/1.0) and force all the TiVo traffic through it, then to the DirecWay 6000's proxy.

Or, if folks can get ahold of a tech at DirecWay who really knows what's going on, DirecWay's proxy should be able to be patched to handle TiVo's HTTP/1.1 web requests (specifically, must be able to handle POST requests without a Content-Length header).

msulewski · 01-08-2005, 08:32 AM

I have a Linksys BEFSR11 gateway. I changed the MTU to 1460, but no change, so I guess we are back to square 1. What would be a novel idea, is if Tivo and Direcway would stop pointing fingers at each other and get together to find a solution to the problem, After all, THEY are the only ones with the inside knowlege to fix this problem!

msulewski · 01-08-2005, 08:52 AM

The proxy setting used in Explorer is to route the HTTP protocol through an accelerator (on the DW4020 and DW4000, it uses port 83, on the DW6000 it uses port 87). Since the Tivo does use ports 8080 -8089, you would have to assume it uses an HTTP or HTTPS protocol to communicate. (HTTPS does not route through the acceleratpr port) This is one other area I find the Tivo setup lacking... It does not have the ability to set Proxy ports (What if your network was using a proxy server?)

Laserfan · 01-08-2005, 09:45 AM

With these replies I at least feel we are getting closer to clarifying the problem (might be important to finding a solution!

). Anyway, still looking for my "TCP/IP for Dummies" book here so I'm not being much help.

This morning my AOL app (don't hit me) indicated "Port Magic" wanted to manage my router--maybe this app will at least tell me more about Tivo's requests to get out of my system.

Many thanks for all/any interest shown in this problem--I did, BTW, find a thread over in a Broadband/Direcway forum on this subject. Will post the URL when I get a chance (i.e. I hafta find it again)...

Laserfan · 01-08-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by msulewski
The proxy setting used in Explorer is to route the HTTP protocol through an accelerator (on the DW4020 and DW4000, it uses port 83, on the DW6000 it uses port 87). Since the Tivo does use ports 8080 -8089, you would have to assume it uses an HTTP or HTTPS protocol to communicate. (HTTPS does not route through the acceleratpr port) This is one other area I find the Tivo setup lacking... It does not have the ability to set Proxy ports (What if your network was using a proxy server?)

Two quick thoughts:

- I did actually sense that the https sites I've tried were not as responsive, figured it had something to do with "more communications to assure security" but I do believe you msulewski

- Tivo's "just a linux box"

so we oughta be able to make it do anything we want, huh???

maniclemur · 01-12-2005, 11:00 AM

forgive me if the following sounds really stupid, i know very little about proxies and networking - but i don't have the proxy settings entered in Firefox or IE and can still access external websites. Does this mean all HTTP requests are being forced through the proxy server regardless? Or is it just that the router is handling that end of things?

and would the proxy server issue explain the following error in a tclient.log:

Jan 10 21:04:56 (none) comm[142]: CommUtil: connection to host 204.176.49.2, port 80, err 0x0
Jan 10 21:04:56 (none) comm[142]: Uploading HTTP Header for modLog of /var/log/svclog: POST /tivo-service/mlog.cgi HTTP/1.0^M Content-Length: 379752^M ^M
Jan 10 21:04:56 (none) comm[142]: error writing to socket, reason = Broken pipe

I can see that if we could set up a second proxy between the TiVo and Direcway's proxy, we could route the TiVo requests through the right port. Would it be possible to use one of the computers on the network as a gateway? (and if so, would it need to be taken off the LAN and put between the DW6000 and the router or not?)