Ultimate Wireless Network

[vlxjim]

Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter (works just like the WET54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridge but cost less and in a different case for the gaming market). Routed by a Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router. The high gain antenna on the WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal than the WUSB11. I get 100% on singal and link with this setup with both TiVo's 75+ feet from the router (one up stairs one down stairs). I now have a 54G network the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck. I can now watch in real time the transfer of best quality video. Watching a two hour movie in best quality is no problem. And the Med. quality transfers are three to four time as fast.

I hope this helps some of you out.

Jim

[Kindred]

Curious about the antenna, can you describe it? Is it optional or directly connected to the 'box'? Don't both ends need the signal boost? Are they directional? If so, how do you handle the receiving ends being in different locations (I'm assuming that they are in different directions?)

Just curious....

Thanks

Jack

[vlxjim]

The antenna is on the unit and about 6-7 inchs long. The WGA54G is a transceiver so a higher gain antenna is going to improve the transmit as well as the receive. In other words it talks louder and hears better. You can see it on the linksys web site.

[Kindred]

THanks for the reply. I will go over to thier site and check it out. Is it directional or omni-directional?

Jack

[nodefect]

I just posted this question. Can you transfer video back to the PC from the Tivo box and burn it on the PC's DVD burner?


The manager at Circuit City told me to go with the Microsoft B Router and adapter because he said the Linksys does not work very well with the Directv/Tivo box. Is that true? I noticed that the Mircrosoft G router is available, but the antena is not out yet. The manager told me that Tivo cannot benefit from the G speed, so why pay the extra money? he said.

[bedelman]

As far as I know, the USB ports on the DirecTivo boxes are disabled.

[Kindred]

No you can't route the video back to the PC and the TiVo does not (at this time) support the g type router, so to speak. You can look back at some of the older inquiries and find that it will talk to some extent, but since you are talking on a USB 1.1 device, your speed is really constrained. If you want your greatest speed, hardwire the devices!

Jack

[SafariKC]

Can anyone confirm this? I don't see how this could actually speed things up unless Tivo has activated the USB2.0 capiblity of the ports. vlxjim: what is the Software version on your Tivos? Have you noticed the same transfer speed if you just run a cable between the 2 Ethernet ports on the USB200M's w/o the wireless?

[vlxjim]

The antennas, are omni-directional

With this type of setup TiVo supports the wireless G. Using the USB200M Network Adapters TiVo thinks it is hard wired to a 100Mb network but the hard wire is really two WGA54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridges that talk at 54Mbs not as fast as the 100Mb hard wire but faster than the TiVo's USB 1.1 port (12Mbs max). Wireless B is 11Mbs but for most 5-6 Mbs were wireless G is 54Mbs most will see 22-25 Mbs with transfer errors or interference you can see why having this type of wireless network is so good and if TiVo get a USB 2.0 Driver some day your all set, it will then tranfer 4-5x faster than real time in best.

In the video transfer world network speed is the key. As long as you can transfer data faster than Tivo you won't get data drop outs. The TiVo USB 1.1 port is just enught to play best quality in real time. But the network has to keep up, and wirless B can't keep up nor can a 10Mbs hard wire network. You need wireless G or 100Mbs hard wire. At this time with USB1.1 (12Mbs) wireless G or 100Mbs hard wire work just the same but if USB 2.0 (400Mbs) drivers come out 100Mbs will be 46+Mbs faster than G.

[Kindred]

Jim...

Just what I was figuring out! Thanks for the reply to straighting it out for me concisely! Now it is clear...
I looked at the description over at the ad and found it very useful. The ant is Omidirectional so it works in all directions witch is great for your situation, but not too good for mine! hang in there and keep up with the reports they help, they are of great help!!!!

Thanks again!!!

Jack

[ggfox]

Originally posted by vlxjim
Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter ....

Hmm....

If the drivers on the TiVos are only USB 1.1, wouldn't that limit the transfer in/out of the TiVo unit's USB ports to the theoretical 12Mbps regardless of the 54Mbps link between the 2 WGA54G units using the bridge setup?

Wouldn't 2.0 drivers be needed for this to work at the desired 54mbps speed all the way through?

Just wondering how this all works..
TIA,
George

[bedelman]

802.11g would rarely reach the theoretical maximum of 54Mb/sec

For one, if there's an access point involved and you're going wireless to wireless you lose half your throughput right off the bat.

802.11g also slows down the farther away you are.

The same issues also occur with 802.11b.

The normal throughput of an 802.11b network ends up being between 2Mbs and 5.5Mbs for a wireless to wireless connection. With 802.11g I would imagine that the best you'll see in normal situations is somewhere around 20-25Mbs.

This is still faster than USB 1.1's limit of 12Mbs but it's not as far off as you might think by just looking at the numbers.

[ggfox]

Hi,

I understand theoretical -vs- actual speeds. That's was not the point of my post... What I am trying to get at is the fact that the bottleneck in the setup suggested by "vlxjim" (54mbps bridge) is the USB port/driver on the TiVo unit. Thus regardless of how fast your data flies over wireless, the TiVo I/O throughput on its USB ports is limited to what the port/drivers support: USB 1.1 (12mbps). I think his solution does not do much but improve performance just notch over regular 802.11b (11mbps). I don't think the TiVos communicate at speeds beyond what USB 1.1 supports: 12mbps.

This is the way I am looking at it. You just have to follow the chain of devices and their "speeds" under this type of setup:

1. TiVo phys. USB 2.0 port + TiVo USB 1.1 driver = USB 1.1 virutal port = 12mbps max speed (theoretical)

2. Linksys USB200M 10/100 USB-Ethernet + virtual USB 1.1 port (above) = Linksys "fast speed mode" (not "high speed 54mbps mode" per documentation) = 12 mbps transfer rate (theoretical).

3. Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge + Linksys USB200M in "fast speed mode" = 12 mbps transfer rate (lower denominator of both devices).

4. Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge + Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge = 54mbps wireless transfer rate (theoretical)

If I am correct on this, you can see that from point #1, the bottleneck is the USB 1.1 driver built-in to the TiVo. Regardless if your unit has an USB 2.0 port, as long as the driver is 1.1, you can only get 12mbps (theo).

Thus, no matter how fast your data flies over the wireless link (point #4, the two Game bridges), it will only go through (in and out) the TiVo USB port at no more than the supported theoretical speed (12mbps) because of the USB 1.1 driver, and the fact that the Linksys USB200M adapter will only switch to 12mpbs (not 100mbps) when connected to a USB 1.1 port/driver (point #2). The lowest common denominator in this chain is the USB 1.1 driver, so the data will never pass through it faster than its capacity.

However, I do think this setup does improve transfer a little over standard 802.11b adapters. Since the actual (not theoretical) speeds of the 802.11b setup will be definately much less than 11mbps, and the 54mpbs bridge setup should pipe data faster to the USB port, which may then process it closer or perhaps even faster than 11mbps but always less than the max 12mbps supported by the TiVo port (theo). ... but I don't know that this type of performance improvement is worth the extra $$.

Perhaps someone with a hacked TiVo unit can actually run some benchmarks on these scenarios. .. ?

I think until we get USB 2.0 drivers on the Tivo Series 2, this setup will not work at full capacity all the way through the chain of devices. On a side note, it should work on TiVo Series 1 with the TurboNET 100mbps ethernet card in place of the Linksys USB200M USB adapter. Since then you will not have the USB 1.1 port bottleneck, and your slowest device would be the 54mbps bridge (802.11g!)

Regards,
George

[pcar1947]

I am intrigued by your solution. I have a TIVO 80 Hour hooked to Linksys WUSB-12. I have just orderd a Pioneer PRDVR810H and would like to include this in my network. I run a Linksys Wireless -G network in the house hooked to 4 computers and one Tivo Device. Do you see any issues in implementing your solution, other than cost ? I believe I have to dump the WUSB-12 adapter?
I believe I need to order these parts?

2 Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters
2 Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter

My Router is located in an upstairs office and the Pioneer will be in the basement. Will this be an issue?

In other words could you draw me a installation Map?

Thanks in Advance for any reponse.

[pcar1947]

In your humble opinion is it worth it to implement "vlxjim solution"? Or do you see a better long tem soluton? Keep in mind I like his solution.

[ggfox]

Originally posted by pcar1947
In your humble opinion is it worth it to implement "vlxjim solution"? Or do you see a better long tem soluton? Keep in mind I like his solution.

Hi pcar1947,

Well, assuming what I've read is correct in that while TiVo Series 2 have physical USB 2.0 ports, but only USB 1.1 drivers for them. Then the quick answer is no.

If the driver's on the TiVo's are still v1.1, then the USB 2 port will only work at that spec, which supports up to 12mbps of throughput (theoretical). Being that the case, then the ports are the bottleneck in the chain of devices suggested by the solution proposed by vlxjim. So no matter how fast the 802.11g or Ethernet devices communicate (54mbps / 100mbps theo.), they can get or send data to the TiVos at the speed the TiVo ports support (12mbps theo.)

While I do think vlxjim's solution will improve performance a little, I don't think its worth the extra $$$ bucks it will cost to get all four devices in question (two USB2 10/100 adapters, and the 802.11g game bridges).

The speed difference between the supported (and cheaper) wireless solution of 802.11b at 11mbps -vs- the virtual USB 1.1 ports at 12mbps is not that big, even after accounting for the actual -vs- theoretical speeds. Although I believe other factors could make this speed difference better (greater) under certain circumstances, but that's for someone with the setups in place to benchmark.

It all boils down to a simple analogy... Its like having a 54-lane highway full of cars all heading to the same exit which is only 12-lane wide. No matter how fast traffic was on the highway, you get a big slowdown at the exit due to congestion.

I think until we get new USB 2.0 software driver updates for our TiVO units we will not be able to do high-speed (> 12mbps) through the USB ports on the units. Anybody got any info on when this might happen? .. or better yet, has this already happened and I am still in the dark ???

Now, if you have a TiVo Series 1 with a TurboNet 100mbps card, then I think the solution proposed by vlxjim would work well. But unfortunately Home Media Option is not available for Series 1, and the only advantage of this solution for Series 1 would be connecting a hacked unit to a PC over high-speed wireless for transfering recordings, doing backups, etc.


Regards,
George

[vlxjim]

The gain that you will get is not only in better transfer rates but in much better singal and link strength.The WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal and link strength than the WUSB11, I have used and tested both, and can tell you that I can pick up three other wireless B networks in my neighborhood with the WGA54G. Plus even if you only get 20Mbs do to transfer errors, interference or bad signal and link strength it is still faster than the wireless B network. This is important if you want to transfer and play in Best quality in real time. Or you don't want to slow down your wireless G network. Forget the USB 1.1 as long as you can transfer data faster than Tivo you won't get data drop outs and wirless B can't keep up were a wireless G network can.

This is not over kill I can watch a little faster than real time the transfer of best quality video. I just select a movie from the now playing on the other tivo hit play now and start watching the movie there is no waiting and after about 10 or 15 min. I can start to pass through the commercials. This is like the performance of a hardwired network. I don't know of anyone that can do this with wireless B. Like I said before if TiVo get us USB 2.0 drivers I'll be setup I will then tranfer 4-5x faster than real time in best quality.

And don't forget you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup you can change firmware, routers or whatever you need and TiVo just thinks it's hook to a hardwired network.

[ggfox]

Hmm....

I have 802.11b at home and never had a problem with signal strength. It always gets about 90% which is just as good as my PCs. I also pick up 4 other networks in the building I live. I guess it all depends on the equipment you are using, location/distance, and setup.

But I agree with you.. if your current wireless equipment is not working well, then something should be done about it. But if my 802.11b setup was weak in signal and slower than average, then I would just buy a signal amplifier/booster (e.g, Linksys WSB24) rather than go with a more expensive all-around replacement which is not going to yield its full capacity due to current bottlenecks.

And you do need two "built-in" drivers from TiVo (USB and adapter). Without them what you plug into your USB (e.g., USBM200) will not work, and most importantly the drivers also determine how adapters work on that bus (speedwise; USB 1.1 = 12mbps, USB 2.0 = 480mbps).

Regards,
George

[vlxjim]

You not getting the point. With your wireless B network at 100% you still can't get real time transfers in best quality or high quality as far as that gos. Wireless B is just to slow and a signal amplifier/booster won't get you there either. Plus when TiVo gets us USB 2.0 drivers. The ones that build on a B network well be left in the dust.

This post was for those that wanted a wireless G network But are still waiting on TiVo for drivers.

When I say that you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TiVo has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.

[morac]

I have to agree with vlxjim. The best wireless speeds I've seen with my 802.11b network is around 4 mbps (and that's with one wire link and one wireless link). Even with the artificial 12 mbps USB1.1 cap, its still 3 times faster than using 802.11b.

There is a cost/performance issue though. Is getting around 3 times the speed worth paying an extra
2 x $90 + 2 x $27 - 2 x $$40 = $154 more than using a wireless B network. That's for 2 TiVo's. It would be more if you have more TiVos.

If you could use the Linksys WUSB54G Wireless-G USB Adapter (which you can't) it would be less of an issue since it would only be $20 more.

[pcar1947]

I agree with MORAC this is a cost/benefit issue. I also think that VIXJIM has presented this board with an alternative solution that is on the cutting edge.

I was getting ready to order the necessary equipment when I ran across these lines in one of your post.


"And don't forget you need no drivers from TIVO for this wireless setup you can change firmware, routers or whatever you need and TIVO just thinks it's hook to a hardwired network."
?When I say that you need no drivers from TIVO for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TIVO has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.?

Please clarify. How do you upset the chipset driver.

My Proposed Configuration will be as follows

1.) TiVo 2 80Hr, Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter

2.) Pioneer DVR-810H (wireless/HMO enabled) Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter

Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router

Do you see any issues?

Before I read this I had already invested in a WUSB-12 Adpater, and it works( Albeit slow at $58).

[vlxjim]

TiVo has the drivers for the USB 1.1 the chipset on the mother board, but the chipset on newer TiVos 2's have a chipsets that support USB 2.0. So TiVo just need to update the chipset driver so that it uses the USB 2.0 standard. And the USB200M is USB 2.0 and backwards compatible with USB 1.1. If TiVo get us the new driver you will get a free network upgrade that will transfer 4-5x faster so that a 1 hour best quality movie will transfer in 15-20 min.

[ggfox]

Originally posted by vlxjim
You not getting the point. With your wireless B network at 100% you still can't get real time transfers in best quality or high quality as far as that gos. Wireless B is just to slow and a signal amplifier/booster won't get you there either.

Hi,
Point was taken and understood. But that was not my point...

All I am saying is that by doing your workaround, you cannot get anything more than 12mbps (theoretical) into or out of a TiVo unit, no matter what kind of device chain you plug into it (100mbps, 54mbps, etc.).

Like you said on your original post: "...the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck", ...a 12mbps bottleneck.

I am not debating wether you are getting better performance or not over your old 802.11b setup. I believe you are getting better performance, just not what the high-speed hardware in question supports and that is something that should be clear to anybody who contemplates this solution now; There is a bottleneck, and its the current TiVo USB 1.1 driver. Once that is taken care of, then you can use the high-speed network hardware/setup to its max capacity.

That said, and like I have noted on my other posts, I know your setup has merit and will improve performance over a standard 802.11b setup. You're probably gettings a few extra mbps out of that setup over 802.11b, and that makes a lot of differnce between real and non-real time transfers (considering that an average MPEG-2 DVD is encoded for real-time playback at just only 6 to 7 mbps.) But I also believe that the level of improvement is directly related to how bad the replaced 802.11b setup was performing. For me, I have no complaints with my 802.11b setup. But I know its a different story for a lot of folks out there.

That's why IMHO, for me its not worth the extra $$ (just yet). I will just wait for USB 2.0 drivers from TiVo and then go with the following supported 100mbps wired or 54mbps wireless solution. Hopefully this will just be around the corner (but probably not ) ...For those who don't want to wait, have the spare $$, or definately need more than their existing 802.11b setup, then your solution is definately the best wireless alternative, aside from wired (and perhaps faster) solutions. For those just wanting to get into wireless, I say "think about it". Its definately worth considering and the right solution for many; But just be aware of (#1) the current bottleneck and (#2) the remote posibility that in the future TiVo may drop or not (fully) support the devices you purchase for this solution today.

Plus when TiVo gets us USB 2.0 drivers. The ones that build on a B network well be left in the dust.

Agreed. But I am (and have been for a while) on a 802.11b network. Just not ready to buy hardware that could (but most likely not) be dropped or never supported when they release 2.0 drivers and new network adapter drivers. There are no garantees/announcements for upcoming TiVo support, although I have to admit they have a good record... but kinda slow on delivery

This post was for those that wanted a wireless G network But are still waiting on TiVo for drivers.

My posts were meant to dicuss/clarify the existing 12mbps USB bottleneck which will greatly reduce any wireless-G solution's resulting capacity. I think this thread has accomplished that, and hopefully some folks will find it useful.

When I say that you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TiVo has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.

Understood also... Just making the point that such 100mbps ethernet adapter, altho supported by TiVo, will only run at no more than 12mbps.


On a side note, and for those who may be interested, I actually contacted TiVo support to check on the USB 1.1 driver & limit issue, and they responded today. Here's part of the email:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info@Tivo.com [mailto:Info@Tivo.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 1:34 PM
> To: [removed]
> Subject: Re: CID# 114327: TiVo Web Response
>
> Hello George,
>
> Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I understand
> you would like to verify that the USB drivers on the TiVo DVR
> are version 1.1.
>
> The USB drivers are version 1.1 and can run up to 12mbps. The
> device that is USB 2.0 compatible will work with the DVR but
> only at the 12mbps.
>
> ...

Regards

George

[pcar1947]

From the response in the email from TIVO Support it doesn't appear that TIVO has a USB 2.0 version on the drawing board. Oh Well!

I ordered parts anyway. I will let you know how it turns out.

[mjcollart]

Please explain how you've connected your TiVos to your USB adapters and then how you connected the game adapters and then, in turn, linked them to run on the wireless G.

Did you plug the USB200M adapters into the TiVo's USB ports?

Is there Linksys software that you need to install over the Wireless G router's?

And how and where is the Game adapter connected?

I have a wireless G router and two laptops using wireless G network adapter cards.

Returned a USB wireless b adapter which I could not get running.

More details would be appreciated.

[msadesign]

This thread raises some questions for me; I've just started to setup my TiVo network. First, I have the Series2 installed, and working, and then I have the HMO working (except it won't play streaming radio stations, yet).

The questions:

I understand that when HMO plays a song from a remote computer, the song is streamed over the local net. True?

When you play a video selection on TiVo_1 that is recorded on TiVo_2, am I correct that TiVo actually moves the data rather than streaming? and that this is because the available bandwidth is insufficient? And that because of this fact one would want to consider the use of wire rather than wireless?

I am using wireless and plan to use wireless to expand, but maybe I should re-think using wire? (ick, what a pain!)

Thanks,

Michael Spencer

[SafariKC]

I decided to run out and get 2 of the USB200M Wired Adaptors and ran a wire between my two tivo's tonight... I can confirm that you can indeed stream Real Time Best in that situation. :-)

KC

[mjcollart]

Originally posted by KermitTheFrog
I decided to run out and get 2 of the USB200M Wired Adaptors and ran a wire between my two tivo's tonight... I can confirm that you can indeed stream Real Time Best in that situation. :-)

KC

===============================================
Linksys shows the USB200M as a Wireless Network Adapter!

So I do not understand "and then ran a wire between my two tivos"

Questions:

Do you simply plug the USB200M into the back of the TiVo?
Do you need to install on your computer additional Linksys software to see this remote wireless adapter?
Do you reboot your TiVo or anything else to get this going?

As a TiVo dummy, any detailed steps would be appreciated.

[mjcollart]

Originally posted by mjcollart
===============================================
Linksys shows the USB200M as a Wireless Network Adapter!

So I do not understand "and then ran a wire between my two tivos"

Questions:

Do you simply plug the USB200M into the back of the TiVo?
Do you need to install on your computer additional Linksys software to see this remote wireless adapter?
Do you reboot your TiVo or anything else to get this going?

As a TiVo dummy, any detailed steps would be appreciated.

=============================================
Ignore my previous question. After rereading Linksys site I see that the USB200M needs a cable, too. Thanks.

[pcar1947]

Recieved all the equipment to install this solution today. Running into some issues though.

TIVOs do not recognize the Game Adapters.

I have configured both on my PC.

The first Game Adapter IP address is 198.168.1.250. When hooking this up to TIVO 1 it say that this is duplicate IP . How do you resolve this? When I attempt a connection in TIVO setup it fails. Same with TIVO2.

I am running Zone Alarm Pro. Could that be the ISsue?

I have read through the setup guide several times. I must be missing something.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Paul C