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Old 10-23-2014, 02:00 PM   #2161
nooneuknow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post
I think AV-GP drives spin up more gradually than most drives to avoid drawing enough startup current to pull the 12v supply down, which can trigger a reboot.
I'll give a gold star, and a free copy of free software, to the first person to count how many times I have brought up the fact that WD "intellipower" drives (and other drives I recommend for use in TiVo) spin up in stages, taking more time, in order to use the least amount of current, and how critical this is for most TiVos, especially the Roamio Base/OTA.

I know that most TiVos will spend most of their installed lifetimes with the hard drive spinning, and have very few cold power-cycles (warm reboots don't count). But, as electronics and (especially) hard drives age, power consumption, and start-up requirements tend to get higher. This could mean that if you only power-cycle once a year, you just may lose the ability to boot, after year two or three, if you started out just barely on the right side of the line between enough power to cold-boot, and not enough.

Realistically, doing a full cold-boot, rather than a warm reboot, is part of most diagnostic procedures (the good ones, anyway).

I keep all my Tivos, and all supporting hardware (other than the TVs), on UPS's w/AVR. My line voltage tends to be at ~125V (per leg), tends to not vary, and power outages are typically limited to cars hitting poles or transformers.

I recall living in the midwest, and the utility voltage being ~110V (per leg), often finding one leg would be as low as 90V (or less), making for some hellish troubleshooting. In my time there, I had three instances of residential transformers getting replaced, due to my insistence that the issue be fixed, and two business-serving transformers, as well.

It may be safe to assume that somebody plugging a stock base model wart into an outlet with = or < 110VAC will have more pronounced issues than those getting = or > 120VAC.

I do have an AV receiver somewhere, that has a switch on the back for 110V, 115V, 120V, and a few others (but not 220-250V). When I moved, not changing that switch created an amplified humming on the outputs. Do modern AV receivers still have such switches, or do they auto-sense? If both types still exist (manual and auto-set), which type is found on "high-end" ones?
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:12 PM   #2162
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Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
Both the Red and the regular Green have lower power consumption.
Yes, as I've peppered recent posts with, buying a WD drive that has "intellipower" gets you the low-current, staged, longer time-to-ready, spin-up.

WD Green*, Caviar Green*, AV-GP, Red NAS, and Purple, all have it.

*There may be some really old models of Green and Caviar Green, that came out before "intellipower" became the "norm".

As also mentioned in a prior post, WD enterprises-class drives can be set to the spin-up needs of the enterprise system, allowing one drive to work in multiple systems and/or configurations, for multiple purposes.

For consumer, CE/OEM, and SMB markets, one way around having a long time-to-ready, is "Idle Mode 3", where the drive parks the heads, but the platters stay spinning. It doesn't affect the spin-up current/time, but saves electricity by taking away the drag of the heads and actuator arms being above and below the platters. Those of us who owned TiVos before Roamios, and upgraded with WD non-AV plain-green drives, had to disable (or increase the timer value for) this function, with wdidle3.exe, or the older TiVos would hang on a warm boot, when the 8 second timer default would park the heads, but the TiVo couldn't/wouldn't make the drive unpark them (or some compatibility issue made it impossible).

The WD Purple is targeted at motion activated camera systems, and is designed around spending a lot of time in Idle-3, but being very quick to write every frame received, on any/every camera that becomes active.

WD tweaked the firmware of the Purple, so much, I think that weighs in heavily on the 60TB/yr per drive workload rating. I think they had to sacrifice something to get the fastest time-to-ready, from Idle-3.

Unless you have a motion-activated camera system, I fail to see any point in spending roughly the same amount of money on a Purple, when the Red NAS has a 120-150TB/yr per drive workload rating. Bought in bulk, the Purple is cheaper, which likely explains why WK is using them for at least some of their upgrade solutions.

There is one missing link in all of this (especially when tuner counts are 4, or more), and making comparisons. The TB/yr workload rating of the AV-GP is unpublished and unstated, not even having an "unofficial" rating out there.

Throw in that when WD and Seagate start talking about AV "streams", they are speaking of their proprietary enhancements to the base ATA Streaming Feature, which TiVo chooses not to use, and never has, instead writing the AV data as standard data, without any special enhancements applied, and subject to the same error correction as any old data, comparing apples to apples, gets difficult.

My spiel used to end there. Now, I know that WD's Red & Purple, and Seagate's AV+NAS drives support TLER/ERC, which is enabled, by default, and can only be disabled using a SCT ERC script, as the setting is lost at power-off, and restored to 7 seconds, at power-on.

I had better cut it off here, and get back to work on the TLER/ERC project.
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:30 PM   #2163
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nooneuknow,

What I was saying, which should have been obvious based on what I quoted, was that both the Red and the regular Green have lower power consumption than the same size AV-GP drive..
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:41 PM   #2164
nooneuknow
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Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
nooneuknow,

What I was saying, which should have been obvious based on what I quoted, was that both the Red and the regular Green have lower power consumption than the same size AV-GP drive..
What if they are measuring that based on the drive spending even part of the time with the heads parked (Idle-3)?

The drive mfg tend to either spec it out per mode, or they just publish a spec, based on how they assume a drive will be used, typically as the marketing lays it out.

I don't think WD ever expected anybody to run a regular Green 24/7/365, without ever parking the heads. Why would they publish specs for 24/7/365, with no Idle-3 time, then? I'll spare the list of other things they consider "normal" or "average" in their synthetic definitions of things.

As for the Red, yes, I've always found it interesting that it seems to have the best of all worlds, in a 5400RPM drive.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:08 PM   #2165
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
What if they are measuring that based on the drive spending even part of the time with the heads parked (Idle-3)?
There are separate values for Read/Write, Idle, and Standby/Sleep.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:38 PM   #2166
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
I do have an AV receiver somewhere, that has a switch on the back for 110V, 115V, 120V, and a few others (but not 220-250V). When I moved, not changing that switch created an amplified humming on the outputs. Do modern AV receivers still have such switches, or do they auto-sense? If both types still exist (manual and auto-set), which type is found on "high-end" ones?
I've started hunting for a new AV receiver to replace my 15 year old one (among other issues it has no HDMI). It seems the majority of AV receivers have moved to Class-D (PWM) amplifiers and switching power supplies. Most switching supplies will work with a wide range of input voltages and frequencies.

Having said that the couple of higher end receivers I'm looking at list power as 120 V at 60 Hz. I'm not sure if that is simply keeping the manual short for the US or if the the power supply voltages and frequencies are limited.

Either way there is no switch to set power supply voltage on the receivers I've looked at so far.

- Dan
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:07 AM   #2167
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The 3TB WD AV-GP consumes slightly less power than the 1TB model.

Again, the lesson is don't cheap out - buy the WD AV-GP model, not any random drive for your Tivo upgrade.
Or just buy a cheaper and same power use WD Green and save a few bucks. It will last just as long.

There is no proof that an AV-GP drive is any better than a Green in a Tivo, nor is there any proof favoring the Green. None.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:36 AM   #2168
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Or just buy a cheaper and same power use WD Green and save a few bucks. It will last just as long.

There is no proof that an AV-GP drive is any better than a Green in a Tivo, nor is there any proof favoring the Green. None.
+1
I know of no test that can give you the meantime to failure of any Hard drive, unless you purchased say 1000 drives each of each model hard drive and ran them over the next 8 to 10 years, then you would have your answer, but 8 or so years from now. Hard drives change all the time, firmware upgrades internal hardware changes, the same model can be different 6 months after your purchase, for better or worse. In general hard drives have gotten better, and I know of no model hard drives that constantly fails quickly in TiVo use. My upgraded Series 1 two hard drives lasted over 6 years and the drives were made in 2001.
People looking for a definite answer as to what hard drive to use in a TiVo will not find that answer. The best one can do is use a drive with low power and low heat, 5400rmo to 5900rpm drives should meet this requirement, one should not use say a 15000 rpm drive or a SSD for TiVo use.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:00 PM   #2169
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I know of no test that can give you the meantime to failure of any Hard drive, unless you purchased say 1000 drives each of each model hard drive and...
When helping friends and family I tell them I've seen hard drives die when 3 months old, I've seen them last 9 years.

Google did a comprehensive evaluation in 2007. It's very long, maybe jump towards the end to their conclusions:

http://static.googleusercontent.com/...k_failures.pdf

More recently, Backblaze posted some data:

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/how-l...k-drives-last/
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:31 PM   #2170
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
Or just buy a cheaper and same power use WD Green and save a few bucks. It will last just as long.

There is no proof that an AV-GP drive is any better than a Green in a Tivo, nor is there any proof favoring the Green. None.
I was wondering how long it would take for your next carbon-copy post to appear...

Since you can't be bothered to say more than your usual bait, which usually kicks-off the next battle here, or even be bothered to mention the 1yr difference in warranty, which I'm not the only member to feel is worth mentioning (for those who don't know), I won't bother to do more than to bring up the warranty, and state your "no proof" arguments apply to what you say, as well (especially so, given some pretty obvious facts & factors, about how short of a time four and six tuner DVRs, especially TiVos, have even been on the market, available to buy, and how long it has been since people upgraded their drives in them).

That's the rise you get. The thread should be fun (the opposite of), now that links to the studies on drives, also controversial, and highly debated, have been posted... Blech...
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:12 PM   #2171
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Originally Posted by lessd View Post
The best one can do is use a drive with low power and low heat, 5400rmo to 5900rpm drives should meet this requirement, one should not use say a 15000 rpm drive or a SSD for TiVo use.
As I have been trying to correct for, myself, I politely suggest you add "low-current spinup" (which WD calls intellipower), to your parameters. Many here have had it drilled into their minds, that intellipower simply means 5400 RPM, and/or any 5400/5900 RPM drive will do (still not always true, even if labeled "green" & 5400/5900 RPM).

There are drives, like HGST/Hitachi (to name just one brand), that market as "green", "energy efficient", "low power requirements", "5400RPM/5900RPM", or all of these things, yet require more than the rated output of the base Roamio wall-wart, at spinup. One such drive I looked into recently (4TB), would even be pushing the limits of units with internal power supplies.

While most TiVo users will likely have very few spin-up cycles in their future, via planned unplug, or via power-outage, it would suck to later find the drive has increased requirements with age (tends to happen), and will no longer spin-up.

ETA: I also suggest that it's best to go with "5400/5900", or "5400 & 5900" rather than using "-" or "to", which only helps keep some people thinking variable spindle speed drives exist.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!

Last edited by nooneuknow : 10-24-2014 at 03:17 PM. Reason: added two lines
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:25 PM   #2172
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Originally Posted by danm628 View Post

I've started hunting for a new AV receiver to replace my 15 year old one (among other issues it has no HDMI). It seems the majority of AV receivers have moved to Class-D (PWM) amplifiers and switching power supplies. Most switching supplies will work with a wide range of input voltages and frequencies.

Having said that the couple of higher end receivers I'm looking at list power as 120 V at 60 Hz. I'm not sure if that is simply keeping the manual short for the US or if the the power supply voltages and frequencies are limited.

Either way there is no switch to set power supply voltage on the receivers I've looked at so far.

- Dan
Take a look at the Denon 4520 Receiver which is still it's flagship untill the upper end Atmos receiver is released next year for $3K. The 4520 was $2500 when it was released two years ago, but it is only around $1K on closeout now. Accessories4less has new and refurbs. I picked up a refurb from them this Summer for $1300. If I had known the new ones would be going for $1K I would have waited. They are also an authorized Denon seller. The 4520 was a big upgrade in sound from the 2008 Denon 3808 I replaced. The 4520 has nine built-in amps and can handle up to 11.2 processing.( with an external two channel amp)
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Old 10-24-2014, 05:20 PM   #2173
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More recently, Backblaze posted some data:

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/how-l...k-drives-last/
The Backblaze data is interesting. It shows an extrapolated MTBF of about 6 years or roughly 50,000 hours. Which is reasonably consistent with the Google data.

The original RAID paper of 1988 used 30,000 hours. Currently, WD claims 1,000,000 hours for its Red drives. I can't say I believe that. I just had one fail after 5,000 hours. That doesn't really say much. But if I were budgeting failure rates, the number would be far closer to 50,000 than 1,000,000.

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Old 10-25-2014, 09:47 AM   #2174
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I was wondering how long it would take for your next carbon-copy post to appear...

Since you can't be bothered to say more than your usual bait, which usually kicks-off the next battle here, or even be bothered to mention the 1yr difference in warranty, which I'm not the only member to feel is worth mentioning (for those who don't know), I won't bother to do more than to bring up the warranty, and state your "no proof" arguments apply to what you say, as well (especially so, given some pretty obvious facts & factors, about how short of a time four and six tuner DVRs, especially TiVos, have even been on the market, available to buy, and how long it has been since people upgraded their drives in them).

That's the rise you get. The thread should be fun (the opposite of), now that links to the studies on drives, also controversial, and highly debated, have been posted... Blech...
Since Tivo doesn't use the AV features of the extra-cost drives, why bother with them? Pretty obvious to me that the rest is just marketing, but I'll grant you that the extra 1-year of warranty is worth something, as is the fact that Tivo is using them.

So yeah, given the nominal price diff and extra warranty length there's no real reason not to get the AV drives unless you're really cheap or get a great deal on a Green (you don't see deals on the AVs). Just saying that there is no real proof that one is better than the other in a Tivo, so the WD Greens are a decent alternative.
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Old 10-25-2014, 03:42 PM   #2175
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Since Tivo doesn't use the AV features of the extra-cost drives, why bother with them? Pretty obvious to me that the rest is just marketing, but I'll grant you that the extra 1-year of warranty is worth something, as is the fact that Tivo is using them.

So yeah, given the nominal price diff and extra warranty length there's no real reason not to get the AV drives unless you're really cheap or get a great deal on a Green (you don't see deals on the AVs). Just saying that there is no real proof that one is better than the other in a Tivo, so the WD Greens are a decent alternative.
It is a bit ironic, that even back when this thread was started, I was one of the most proactive members, telling people not to spend the extra money, just to get an AV drive, since TiVo doesn't use the AV ATA Streaming command set features. At the time, I had just as many detractors/naysayers, as I do now.

At the time (back then), it wasn't as bad as it used to be, where if you thought you needed an AV drive, and purchased thinking you needed it, you could have just bought two drives, for the same money, if you had gone with plain WD Green.

The price gap has (or had) closed, and the WD Caviar Green EADS/EARS drives are EOL'd. Those Caviar Green drives had a 3yr warranty.

With the price gap between AV-GP and plain Green, being what is was a few months ago, you could often get the AV-GP for within single-digit dollars, or at the same price, as the plain Green, and get that extra year warranty.

I will agree that deals on AV-GP drives are scarce. There are still no signs of them being EOL'd. I asked WD about it. They said the AV-GP isn't going away, and it is the only drive they consider to be proper intended usage, for TiVo, or any DVR/PVR, using a single drive, not RAID. DVR/PVR & surveillance systems, with RAID, are supposed to be using the Red or Purple, and each has it's own proper usage profiles.

While I doubt an RMA will be denied, over using a drive they don't approve of, or using it improperly, good luck if you want to get technical support.

Given the fact that the price gap is growing apart again, I'm trying to keep an open mind, but will not go back to preaching about TiVo not using the streaming features. I will just stick to the warranty, and hope you can add that factor in to your own posts. Some will pay more for the extra warranty, regardless of all else, some will stick with using what TiVo chose to use, and some will inevitably go as cheap as they can, and the rest means nothing to them.

In the spirit of trying to get along, I'm not going to post another list of things AV drives have going for them, even if not using the streaming features. I've posted all the potentials, possibilities, probabilities, and explanations enough times already.
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Old 10-25-2014, 04:58 PM   #2176
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Take a look at the Denon 4520 Receiver which is still it's flagship untill the upper end Atmos receiver is released next year for $3K. The 4520 was $2500 when it was released two years ago, but it is only around $1K on closeout now. Accessories4less has new and refurbs. I picked up a refurb from them this Summer for $1300. If I had known the new ones would be going for $1K I would have waited. They are also an authorized Denon seller. The 4520 was a big upgrade in sound from the 2008 Denon 3808 I replaced. The 4520 has nine built-in amps and can handle up to 11.2 processing.( with an external two channel amp)
I've currently have a Denon AVR-4800 I purchased in 1999 (I think). The lack of HDMI is only one issue; center channel is noisy and the subwoofer output has failed. All fixable if I'm willing to put the effort in or spend the money to get someone to do it for me. Or I can use it as a 2 channel (or bi-amped 2 channel) setup for music.

I am currently looking at the AVR-X5200W or if I choose to spend less the AVR-X4100W.

I've been partial to Denon since D&M Holdings (Now D+M Group) purchased the remains of a previous employer. A few former co-workers ended up there. Last time I checked they were the assignee for several of my old patents.

I'm not in a rush to buy which is nice. I may end up waiting till next years models which should have HDCP 2.2. I'm purchasing a home in the next few months and will wait till afterwards to replace the receiver. I'm waiting on the sale of my father's home as part of his estate. I need a bigger place for the pianos I took from the estate. Plus literally a ton of books; a mix of mine and his.

We should continue this in a receiver thread (if there is one).

- Dan
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:15 PM   #2177
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This must be the infamous Dan Miller? Hi Dan, long time no talk bro!
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:19 PM   #2178
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This must be the infamous Dan Miller? Hi Dan, long time no talk bro!
Nope, not Dan Miller. Correct last initial but wrong last name.

- Dan
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:31 PM   #2179
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Nope, not Dan Miller. Correct last initial but wrong last name. - Dan
Wow that's strange! He worked for D&M as well.
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Old 10-25-2014, 11:11 PM   #2180
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Wow that's strange! He worked for D&M as well.
I worked at Supra, Diamond Multimedia, S3 and SONICblue. That's 10 years and 1 month in a single job. Two purchases and one rename during the period.

I left SONICblue about 16 months before they shutdown when they laid off the one division in the company that turned a profit. During the bankruptcy D&M purchased the assets of SONICblue and brought on some of the staff. Mostly for RIO mp3 players and ReplayTV. I was at a startup working on WiFi and Bluetooth by the time that happened.

Annoyingly "Dan" is a very common first name in the US. As is my last name. At one point there were 7 people at my current fairly large employer (100K+ employees) with the same first and last name. None with the same middle name though one had the same middle initial. On a regular basis I get emails that should go to one of the other Dans at the company.

- Dan

PS. If any one really wants to figure it out -- Google "Dan PaperClip". I should be one of the first couple of hits, look for the word processor. Though that was a very long time ago.

Edit: If you pick the right search you end up on the Wikipedia page that mentions me and PaperClip. Which is scary.
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:07 PM   #2181
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PS. If any one really wants to figure it out -- Google "Dan PaperClip". I should be one of the first couple of hits, look for the word processor. Though that was a very long time ago.
Very, very cool Mr. PaperClip!
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