TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Premiere DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-17-2013, 03:42 AM   #31
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyFan View Post
Just got it! Quality improvement is
Night & day difference .
Makes regular HD look like SD.
What'd you watch where you thought that the difference between their normal 1080p and the new "Super HD" was "night & day"?
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 04:30 AM   #32
CoxInPHX
COX Communications
 
CoxInPHX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
As a sanity check, play "Example Short 23.976" a test clip with a bit-rate/resolution info overlay burned into each of its component video encodes (the version that TiVo gets is a little strange; they removed the 235-, 375- and 750 Kbps encodes from the one other devices are getting and TiVo still seems to have those, but they don't have the info overlay). Currently it doesn't seem to be possible to play this clip on any of my 1080p-capable Netflix playing devices unless the player is assigned to Open Connect servers. You should see the bit-rate on the overlay get up to the 4300- and 5800 Kbps "Super HD" encodes.
Thanks very cool,
1080p - Bitrate 5800 Kbps on my Premirers and Roku 2 XS 1080p also. I see the overlay on both,

I find it odd that the Manage video quality page does not have Super HD listed.
https://account.netflix.com/HdToggle

It is also odd that they list some 1080i content as Super HD, can 1080i be Super HD?
Examples, British titles: Doctor Who Season 6 and Merlin
__________________
Roamio Pro, XL4, Premiere 2TB-WD20EURS, & Mini, 20.4.1, w/ Cisco SDV TA, FW F.1601, Cisco CC FW PKEY1.5.3_F.p.0601

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

CoxInPHX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 05:09 AM   #33
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoxInPHX View Post
It is also odd that they list some 1080i content as Super HD, can 1080i be Super HD?
Examples, British titles: Doctor Who Season 6 and Merlin
AFAIK, none of Netflix's content is encoded interlaced. Most motion pictures and American television is p24; the British stuff is p25. Some very old television is p30, but even some of that is encoded p24. Lots of things pre-HDTV television were shot to film and have been transferred to widescreen high-def and look pretty good. The early seasons of Law & Order are like that (though it weirdly switches from 1.77:1 to 1.33:1 at Season 3).

The framerate of the video doesn't limit its resolution.

Most titles which have HD encodes have Super HD ones. There are some titles which are limited to 720p; these mostly seem to be big theatrical release titles like Thor, Captain America, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, True Grit, Super 8 and some others. These generally can't be played in HD on PCs at all and many of them don't have available digital 5.1 sound (the descriptions on Netflix's website will say "HD on your TV", by which to say "not on your PC"). I did come across one title which was 720p only but could be played in 720p on PC (Equilibrium--good flick) but I think that it's the only one I've seen.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill

Last edited by mikeyts : 02-17-2013 at 09:56 AM.
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 07:12 AM   #34
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 12,632
I'm on FiOS in the DC area. I switched from my UNBLock DNS IP addresses to the Google ones and tried it out yesterday. When I did, the SuperHD and 3D options disappeared. Then I tried the FiOS DNS addresses. I got the same result. As soon as I went back to the unBlock DNS addresses, the SuperHD and 3D streams popped back up and would play.
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x2
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 07:15 AM   #35
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 12,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
AFAIK, none of Netflix's content is encoded interlaced. Most motion pictures and American television is p24; the British stuff is p25. Some very old television is p30, but even some of that is encoded p24. Lots of things pre-HDTV television waas shot to film and it's been transferred to widescreen high-def and looks pretty good. The early seasons of Law & Order are like that (though it weirdly switches from 1.77:1 to 1.33:1 at Season 3).

The framerate of the video doesn't limit its resolution.

Most titles which have HD encodes have Super HD ones. There are some titles which are limited to 720p; these mostly seem to be big theatrical release titles like Thor, Captain America, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, True Grit, Super 8 and some others. These generally can't be played in HD on PCs at all and many of them don't have available digital 5.1 sound (the descriptions on Netflix's website will say "HD on your TV"). I did come across one title which was 720p only but could be played in 720p on PC (Equilibrium--good flick) but I think that it's the only one I've seen.
Isn't the Premiere limited to 1080P24 max? and that is only passthrough. So anything with a higher framerate, would that need to be sent at a lower resolution since the Premiere can't pass it through? So it would scale it down to something lower.

Edit: I just tried one of those season 6 Doctor Who episodes. On this TiVo I have 720P, 1080i, and 1080P24 selected for output. It never exceeded 1080i for the output.
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x2
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme

Last edited by aaronwt : 02-17-2013 at 07:25 AM.
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:10 AM   #36
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Isn't the Premiere limited to 1080P24 max? and that is only passthrough. So anything with a higher framerate, would that need to be sent at a lower resolution since the Premiere can't pass it through? So it would scale it down to something lower.
Obviously the Premiere can output 720p60 and 1080i30 and can scale either into the other. It can change p24, p25 and p30 into anything it can output other than 1080p24, which it can only only output if it gets it as input. If it could turn other formats into 1080p24 you could set that as the only resolution and not have to deal with that stupid switch from p60 or i30 which causes displays to momentarily decompensate.

BTW, if you want to determine the framerate of a Netflix title, play it in the PC web browser player, left-click the picture after it starts to give it keyboard focus and type CTRL-ALT-D while it's not blown up fullscreen to toggle a diagnostic info overlay. Read the framerate from "Video frames (rendered/dropped)" line.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:44 AM   #37
moyekj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 8,532
Downton Abbey which is listed as SuperHD never exceeded 1080i/60 while I was watching. Other SuperHD titles I tried did give me 1080p/24. So I've found seemingly at least 1 series listed as SuperHD which is not 1080p. The https://signup.netflix.com/superhd link seems to imply that all SuperHD titles should be 1080p capable.
__________________
Roamio Pro (GigE)
Elite (MoCA)
Premiere (MoCA adapter)
Cox - Motorola CableCards & TAs
Slingbox 350 via TiVo Mini & TiVo Stream for remote viewing

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
moyekj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 12:10 PM   #38
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by moyekj View Post
Downton Abbey which is listed as SuperHD never exceeded 1080i/60 while I was watching. Other SuperHD titles I tried did give me 1080p/24. So I've found seemingly at least 1 series listed as SuperHD which is not 1080p. The https://signup.netflix.com/superhd link seems to imply that all SuperHD titles should be 1080p capable.
It is 1080p, just 1080p25 not p24. TiVo can't output p25 to your television (and no US television could deal with it anyway) so it has to turn it into something else.

Is TiVo sold in the British market? If so, I'll bet that it can output p25. Of course, the great majority of Netflix content will be p24 anyway.

EDIT: I found "A complete guide to your Virgin Media TV powered by TiVo". It talks about video output format settings for 720p, 1080i and 1080p (also 576i and 576p), which must be 720p50, 1080i25 and 1080p25 in the UK. I wonder if the chipset they're using can scale everything to 1080p25?
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 12:33 PM   #39
moyekj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 8,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
It is 1080p, just 1080p25 not p24. TiVo can't output p25 to your television (and no US television could deal with it anyway) so it has to turn it into something else.
1080p/25 explains why, thanks.
__________________
Roamio Pro (GigE)
Elite (MoCA)
Premiere (MoCA adapter)
Cox - Motorola CableCards & TAs
Slingbox 350 via TiVo Mini & TiVo Stream for remote viewing

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
moyekj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 04:30 PM   #40
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 12,632
I certainly hope if/when a series 5 comes out that it doesn't have this limitation. And can give you the option to scale to 1080P60/50 or 1080P24/25. Or still have native resolution output. My last few HDTVs could handle 1080P25 or my external scaler could handle it.
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x2
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 12:51 AM   #41
Mike-Wolf
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
AFAIK, none of Netflix's content is encoded interlaced. Most motion pictures and American television is p24; the British stuff is p25. Some very old television is p30, but even some of that is encoded p24. Lots of things pre-HDTV television were shot to film and have been transferred to widescreen high-def and look pretty good. The early seasons of Law & Order are like that (though it weirdly switches from 1.77:1 to 1.33:1 at Season 3).

The framerate of the video doesn't limit its resolution.

Most titles which have HD encodes have Super HD ones. There are some titles which are limited to 720p; these mostly seem to be big theatrical release titles like Thor, Captain America, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, True Grit, Super 8 and some others. These generally can't be played in HD on PCs at all and many of them don't have available digital 5.1 sound (the descriptions on Netflix's website will say "HD on your TV", by which to say "not on your PC"). I did come across one title which was 720p only but could be played in 720p on PC (Equilibrium--good flick) but I think that it's the only one I've seen.
There is a ton of Netflix Example videos one can check out that runs at different frames per second which is really awesome for testing and showing off purposes.
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Ex...?trkid=2361637
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Ex...?trkid=2361637
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Ex...?trkid=2361637
Mike-Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 02:21 AM   #42
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-Wolf View Post
There is a ton of Netflix Example videos one can check out that runs at different frames per second which is really awesome for testing and showing off purposes.
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Ex...?trkid=2361637
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Ex...?trkid=2361637
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Ex...?trkid=2361637
The most useful of those (IMO) is "Example Short 23.976", which I mentioned back in this post. It's the only one with a bit-rate/resolution info overlay burned into each of its component video encodes. While you play it, you can see what bit rate is currently being streamed.

There are a bunch of those "Example" clips; they appear to be the only things in Netflix's library with the word "example" in their titles. They also seem to all be composed of the same 11 minute 10 second sequence, repeated as many times as necessary for whatever it is that they're providing a test for. I don't know just how good it is as "demo" material .
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 08:10 AM   #43
Mike-Wolf
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
The most useful of those (IMO) is "Example Short 23.976", which I mentioned back in this post. It's the only one with a bit-rate/resolution info overlay burned into each of its component video encodes. While you play it, you can see what bit rate is currently being streamed.

There are a bunch of those "Example" clips; they appear to be the only things in Netflix's library with the word "example" in their titles. They also seem to all be composed of the same 11 minute 10 second sequence, repeated as many times as necessary for whatever it is that they're providing a test for. I don't know just how good it is as "demo" material .
Actually I've taken the time to watch each one and found subtle differences in the videos even though they have the same sequences, like a mix of different takes for the various videos. There are a few SuperHD encoded example videos including an 8 hour loop. I'm assuming these videos are used for trade shows to demo new displays and technologies?
Mike-Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 10:00 AM   #44
sharkster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NV
Posts: 2,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
No Super HD support available here yet. (Charter)
Same here (Northern Nevada-Charter). I didn't even know what it was when I recently re-joined Netflix to watch 'House of Cards'. I noticed that it said, on the Netflix screen, that HoC is in 'super HD'. Hadn't even heard of that but the show didn't look any more spectacular than I expected. The only thing was that when I started each episode, for anywhere from a minute to 2 or 3 minutes, it was pixely.

I'd be happy if we could just get 'On Demand' here through Tivo Premiere.
sharkster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 10:12 AM   #45
HerronScott
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 811
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
The most useful of those (IMO) is "Example Short 23.976", which I mentioned back in this post. It's the only one with a bit-rate/resolution info overlay burned into each of its component video encodes. While you play it, you can see what bit rate is currently being streamed.
Mike,

I'm playing this one now and don't see any bit-rate/resolution info. Is this because I've got an S3 OLED?

Scott
HerronScott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 03:13 PM   #46
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerronScott View Post
I'm playing this one now and don't see any bit-rate/resolution info. Is this because I've got an S3 OLED?
Yes. There are apparently several different sets of video encodes for every title (they've stated that 120 files are created for each). The TiVo Series3s and many other "legacy" players use a set of VC-1 video encodes with WMA stereo sound. I think that there are 4 standard def encodes at various bit rates for those and (for some) a single 720p HD one; no Super HD, no 1080p at all. The players don't use adaptive bit rate tech; they choose an encode according to initial conditions on their connections to Netflix's servers and if things get worse they'll pause and re-buffer a lower bit rate encode; they can't shift to higher bit rate encodes if conditions get better. (The Xbox 360 did a crude version of adaptive bit rate when it was using this set of encodes in which it could recover to higher bit rate encodes, pausing to re-buffer when it did. I doubt that any of the others attempted it).

Players from the last few years use sets of H.264/AVC video with stereo sound in a format that I'm not sure of (64- and 192 Kbps, probably DD 2.0) with possibly Dolby Digital Plus sound at 384 Kbps. The newer encode sets have sound separate from the video such that you can choose from multiple soundtracks in different languages (if available) and choose from multiple different subtitle sets. They are set up for adaptive bit rate streaming tech, which will smoothly (without pause) drop down to lower bit rate encodes if conditions on their connections to the servers worsen and smoothly ramp up to higher bit rate encodes if things get better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-Wolf View Post
Actually I've taken the time to watch each one and found subtle differences in the videos even though they have the same sequences, like a mix of different takes for the various videos. There are a few SuperHD encoded example videos including an 8 hour loop. I'm assuming these videos are used for trade shows to demo new displays and technologies?
You've watched every minute of all 27 of them? Wow . I'll take your word for it that some contain different takes of the same thing. My guess is that they're prepared for regression testing purposes and not particularly intended for public consumption. 17 of the 27 have Super HD encodes, the rest being limited to 720p. IMHO they make incredibly lame demo material.
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 01:13 AM   #47
Mike-Wolf
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
Yes. There are apparently several different sets of video encodes for every title (they've stated that 120 files are created for each). The TiVo Series3s and many other "legacy" players use a set of VC-1 video encodes with WMA stereo sound. I think that there are 4 standard def encodes at various bit rates for those and (for some) a single 720p HD one; no Super HD, no 1080p at all. The players don't use adaptive bit rate tech; they choose an encode according to initial conditions on their connections to Netflix's servers and if things get worse they'll pause and re-buffer a lower bit rate encode; they can't shift to higher bit rate encodes if conditions get better. (The Xbox 360 did a crude version of adaptive bit rate when it was using this set of encodes in which it could recover to higher bit rate encodes, pausing to re-buffer when it did. I doubt that any of the others attempted it).

Players from the last few years use sets of H.264/AVC video with stereo sound in a format that I'm not sure of (64- and 192 Kbps, probably DD 2.0) with possibly Dolby Digital Plus sound at 384 Kbps. The newer encode sets have sound separate from the video such that you can choose from multiple soundtracks in different languages (if available) and choose from multiple different subtitle sets. They are set up for adaptive bit rate streaming tech, which will smoothly (without pause) drop down to lower bit rate encodes if conditions on their connections to the servers worsen and smoothly ramp up to higher bit rate encodes if things get better.

You've watched every minute of all 27 of them? Wow . I'll take your word for it that some contain different takes of the same thing. My guess is that they're prepared for regression testing purposes and not particularly intended for public consumption. 17 of the 27 have Super HD encodes, the rest being limited to 720p. IMHO they make incredibly lame demo material.
I admit that it's not exactly considered "eye candy" but I think it's more intended as technical demos for how well a product can stream and handle the various video and audio bits. Some have a long list of languages in both the subtitle section and language section as well as frame rates and audio types, some being stereo while others being surround sound. In fact there is actually one video called El Fuente: 24 fps is about Mexico https://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/E...1?trkid=438403

Last edited by Mike-Wolf : 03-24-2013 at 01:19 AM. Reason: popcorn
Mike-Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 02:34 AM   #48
mikeyts
Wireless Wiseguy
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 2,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-Wolf View Post
I admit that it's not exactly considered "eye candy" but I think it's more intended as technical demos for how well a product can stream and handle the various video and audio bits. Some have a long list of languages in both the subtitle section and language section as well as frame rates and audio types, some being stereo while others being surround sound.
We'll just have to disagree. The reason why the examples cover every base possible is because they need that for regression testing. If they make a change to their system they need to try every type of stream that they have and they need to try it from various players as requested and streamed over the open Internet just as their customers use it. Except for El Fuente they're all composed of that same 11 minute 10 second sequence of basically nothing, photographed in a mediocre fashion (there may be some types of motion and lighting, etc that they're trying to represent there). El Fuente is one out of 27 clips--it alone seems like legitimate demo material; it's a colorful little travelogue. (I've lived in this city on the border of Mexico for 12 years; one of these days I'll have to go there . But then I'm too lazy to make the 10 mile drive to the beach ).
__________________
Mike Scott

"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
" -- hookbill
mikeyts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 03:41 AM   #49
Mike-Wolf
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts View Post
We'll just have to disagree. The reason why the examples cover every base possible is because they need that for regression testing. If they make a change to their system they need to try every type of stream that they have and they need to try it from various players as requested and streamed over the open Internet just as their customers use it. Except for El Fuente they're all composed of that same 11 minute 10 second sequence of basically nothing, photographed in a mediocre fashion (there may be some types of motion and lighting, etc that they're trying to represent there). El Fuente is one out of 27 clips--it alone seems like legitimate demo material; it's a colorful little travelogue. (I've lived in this city on the border of Mexico for 12 years; one of these days I'll have to go there . But then I'm too lazy to make the 10 mile drive to the beach ).
Love San Diego, it's amazing. Don't take it for granted.
Also I agree with you with what you've said in this post and the related posts about this topic.
Mike-Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |