Buying my first HD TV.. How important is 120hz?

[ufauxreal]

OK... I've done a lot of research on buying my very first HDTV, and I'm almost sure I've decided on getting this one:
Sony Bravia XBR-Series KDL-37XBR6 37-Inch 1080p LCD HDTV

The only feature this TV does NOT have that was on my list was 120hz. Just how important is this feature on a TV this size? I am not a gamer, am not particularly interested in sports, use the TV for just general TV programs. I've been watching DVD's on my computer (24" monitor) but that may change if I can figure a way to transfer them over to a new TV.

Does anyone have experience with this model?

Thanks!

[mattack]

That's not on topic for this site. I think this on avsforum.com is more
relevant.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=9/

[ufauxreal]

I apologize... I'm new here! I will check out your link.

Thanks!

[ThAbtO]

Tivo HD's highest resolution is 1080i. A 120 hz just is too new for tivo, basically its a refresh rate thats twice normal rates around. Perhaps a blu-ray player will handle 120 hz.

[ebockelman]

Originally Posted by ufauxreal

The only feature this TV does NOT have that was on my list was 120hz. Just how important is this feature on a TV this size?

How did this feature make your list if you didn't understand its significance?

[lessd]

Originally Posted by ThAbtO

Tivo HD's highest resolution is 1080i. A 120 hz just is too new for tivo, basically its a refresh rate thats twice normal rates around. Perhaps a blu-ray player will handle 120 hz.

Hay the 120 Hz vs 60Hz is refering to the back lighting for the LCD HDTV, has nothing to do with TiVo or the refresh rate of the TV picture that is set at 30 frames/sec in P mode or 60 frames per sec at i mode, (Some TVs have 1080P at 24 FPS or 30FPS but that not a broadcast standard it's only used for Blu-Ray DVDs and maybe some games)

[tommy275]

Originally Posted by ebockelman

How did this feature make your list if you didn't understand its significance?

magic.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Well, if I saw a feature I didn't understand, I'd sure want to know if it was important before I made a decision!

[webin]

Originally Posted by lessd

Hay the 120 Hz vs 60Hz is refering to the back lighting for the LCD HDTV, has nothing to do with TiVo or the refresh rate of the TV picture that is set at 30 frames/sec in P mode or 60 frames per sec at i mode,

Your first statement isn't entirely accurate, as you describe in your second statement. While I don't know much about the frequency of the LCD light, the 60Hz vs 120Hz is referring to the refresh rate of the picture.... how many frames per second it shows.

Basically, broadcast television, which is what OP is using the HDTV for, is mostly of the 1080i variety, which runs at 60 frames per second (or 60 Hz). For this purpose, a 60Hz television will be sufficient (and a little cheaper?). When you watch a 60 frames per second signal on a TV that runs at 120 Hz, the TV will either render each frame twice, or attempt to interpolate between one frame and the next frame (creating a brand new "tween" frame). Believe it or not, they are now starting to develop HDTVs that run at 240Hz.

As a first HDTV, a 60Hz model will make you perfectly happy.

[ufauxreal]

Originally Posted by ebockelman

How did this feature make your list if you didn't understand its significance?

A week ago I didn't know ANYTHING about HDTV's. I'm trying to educate myself before I make a purchase, which is why I came to this forum of more experienced folks.

Thanks so much to the others who made helpful posts.

[atmuscarella]

Ufauxreal: I'll add my 2 cents move up to 42inches and look at Plazma instead of LCD - Panasonic's Vera TH-42PZ800U is about as good as you can get.

Good Luck,

[ebockelman]

Originally Posted by lessd

Hay the 120 Hz vs 60Hz is refering to the back lighting for the LCD HDTV, has nothing to do with TiVo or the refresh rate of the TV picture that is set at 30 frames/sec in P mode or 60 frames per sec at i mode, (Some TVs have 1080P at 24 FPS or 30FPS but that not a broadcast standard it's only used for Blu-Ray DVDs and maybe some games)

A 120Hz refresh is a useful thing to deal with the differences between film and video. As you mention, video is 30 fps progressive or 60 fps interlaced. Conventional 35 and 70 mm film is shot at 24 fps. Traditionally, we have used techniques such as 3:2 pulldown to turn 24fps film into a video format. The 3:2 pulldown process has its downsides, including motion judder effects.

The new breed of 120Hz displays solve the problem in a relatively simple way - find a multiple of the formats you wish to display.

24 * 5 = 120
30 * 4 = 120

In theory, this should give us smooth display of both film and video. As owners of some of the earlier sets can attest, the video processors that are built into the displays are not always optimally processing the video, and this can lead to suboptimal performance.

So far I've seen 1080p/24 content available on Blu-Ray and Directv VoD.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by ufauxreal

. I've been watching DVD's on my computer (24" monitor) but that may change if I can figure a way to transfer them over to a new TV.

Does anyone have experience with this model?

Thanks!

I think they make some kind of hardware to do that

and the blu ray DVD player is the reason to look a little bit harder at 120Mhz refresh rate as nicely pointed out in other posts

[dddiam]

Originally Posted by ufauxreal

OK... I've done a lot of research on buying my very first HDTV, and I'm almost sure I've decided on getting this one:
Sony Bravia XBR-Series KDL-37XBR6 37-Inch 1080p LCD HDTV

The only feature this TV does NOT have that was on my list was 120hz. Just how important is this feature on a TV this size? [...]

Does anyone have experience with this model?

Thanks!

120 Hz does refer to the refresh rate, and it allows the TV to double the input frame rate. Other posters have mentioned the Blu Ray use, but 120 Hz can also be used to improve lower frame rate sources.

To me 120 Hz gives you a viewing experience that is far superior to 60 Hz models. When I was shopping for our TV, my wife and I spent an hour in Best Buy looking as all of the sets. All of the sets that we were attracted to turned out to be 120 Hz, and the others were 60 Hz. I then checked out user reviews on Amazon.com. All of the 5-star rated TVs were 120 Hz; the best 60 Hz models only got 4.5 stars.

I am not sure what Sony does, but here is how Samsung uses 120 Hz:

Samsung has a feature called Automotion Plus 120Hz image interpolation technology.

The TV firmware compares consecutive frames. If there is an area of the two images that is significantly different across two adjacent frames, the TV dynamically creates an additional, intermediate frame, that splits the location difference between the objects in the two frames, and displays it between the two broadcast frames. The result is much smoother motion, and thus subjectively a sharper, clearer, visual experience.

Take 120 Hz seriously. Go to a store that has a large wall of various brands and models, and compare for yourself.

Regarding TiVo: I suspect that TiVo will support the 60 Hz refresh rate, but that your 120 Hz TV will generate intermediate frames in between the frames that TiVo sends to it. Thus it is the TV, rather than the peripherals, that require the 120 Hz feature.

- David

[Lensman]

Originally Posted by ebockelman

So far I've seen 1080p/24 content available on Blu-Ray and Directv VoD.

It's probably also worth mentioning that on film content broadcast or otherwise transferred via an interlaced process, you can detect and remove the 3:2 pulldown via some inverse telecine technique (sometimes called "reverse 3:2 pulldown"). This will reconstruct a progressive 24 fps video signal, which you can then display on a 120hz monitor using 5:5 pulldown. Note that you do all this despite the fact that the signal was broadcast to you and recorded on your Tivo in 1080i format.

Do all 120hz sets do this? No way! Are there any? Yes. The latest Sony XBR sets do this. Is it perfect? No, there's some artifacting as the set tries to detect the cadence of the signal - that is, as it tries to determine whether the material was originally shot in 60i or 24p and processed using 3:2 pulldown.

Note that other 120hz sets may do this. I'm certainly not 100% familiar with all brands. Samsung and Sharp are certainly candidates for having this kind of sophisticated processing.

I remember back when inverse telecine for 60hz TVs was an "advanced" feature and you see it in just about every 1080p set nowadays. I'm sure that it won't be long before we see reverse 3:2 pulldown to 24p and 5:5 pulldown to 120p as a standard feature on every 120hz set.

[tootal2]

Originally Posted by ufauxreal

OK... I've done a lot of research on buying my very first HDTV, and I'm almost sure I've decided on getting this one:
Sony Bravia XBR-Series KDL-37XBR6 37-Inch 1080p LCD HDTV

The only feature this TV does NOT have that was on my list was 120hz. Just how important is this feature on a TV this size? I am not a gamer, am not particularly interested in sports, use the TV for just general TV programs. I've been watching DVD's on my computer (24" monitor) but that may change if I can figure a way to transfer them over to a new TV.

Does anyone have experience with this model?

Thanks!

I think 120hz is only for 3d. On my bothers tv two people can watch 2 shows on one tv (60 hz per person). You need to buy the 3d kit and glasses for it to work.

I you can also use 120hz to watch 3d shows. Maybe in the future all shows will be hd and 3d

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by tootal2

On my bothers tv two people can watch 2 shows on one tv (60 hz per person). You need to buy the 3d kit and glasses for it to work.

umm so two people in one room with glasses and headphones on, simply so they can watch two diferent shows I thought my geek wore thin on my family at times.

[Mars Rocket]

I've read many comments that basically said that current 120Hz technology makes film-based sources look worse, and makes *some* video sources look better. I guess the manufacturers are on the second generation of 120Hz tech now, but I'd still be skeptical of it at this point.

Oh yeah - making a judgment based on what you see in the store is almost entirely pointless since the different TVs are almost *certainly* not adjusted properly. You may like one more than the other, but that doesn't mean it's better. The other model might seem better to you once it's set up properly.

[ThAbtO]

Originally Posted by tootal2

I think 120hz is only for 3d. On my bothers tv two people can watch 2 shows on one tv (60 hz per person). You need to buy the 3d kit and glasses for it to work.

I you can also use 120hz to watch 3d shows. Maybe in the future all shows will be hd and 3d

Some TVs can do PIP (picture-in-picture), PAP (picture-and-picture, pictures side by side), but they have to be 2 different sources, like hdmi and tuner.

[mbhuff]

No. The sole purpose of 120hz as mentioned before is to provide an even multiple for both film (24 frames per sec) and video (30 frames per second). On TVs that don't support 120hz, they use 3-2 pull-down or inverse telecine to add extra frames. Because of that you get motion artifacts.

Most, but not all, Blu-Ray discs that are mastered from film are preserved in 1080p24. Since 5 x 24 = 120, then TV can just add 5 x frames as needed with no artifacts. I've got the 52" Sony XBR6 and the Denon 2500 blu-ray. The results are amazing.

[dddiam]

Originally Posted by Mars Rocket

Oh yeah - making a judgment based on what you see in the store is almost entirely pointless since the different TVs are almost *certainly* not adjusted properly. You may like one more than the other, but that doesn't mean it's better. The other model might seem better to you once it's set up properly.

Heh heh! That would indeed be foolish. The first thing that I did was adjust the hue, contrast and saturation of the sets that were in the running, to level the playing field. It is good to do that anyway, even if you are looking at a single set, to determine the range of the product's settings, and to see the TV the way that you personally would like to see it.

I played with basic adjustments in the store, but I haven't even begun to explore the multitude of parametric adjustments that my TV has. (And I haven't needed to. I have already optimized the TV image to my and my wife's personal taste).

This TV is has some additional features, also, one of which I am already using regularly. I stuck a flash drive in the edge of it and it plays downloaded MPEG4 videos, full screen, at incredible quality (and of course that interface also supports music files, photo files and a built-in slide show capability). I haven't tried its ethernet connection yet for weather, RSS feeds, and PC configuration of the TV. Nor have I had a chance to try its various PC video inputs yet. The TV firmware can also be upgraded via a flash drive.

But the main thing is that the TV picture quality was significantly superior to everything else we compared it to.

And the Samsung 120 Hz interpolated-motion in-between frames makes a huge difference in clarity when there is movement on the screen. I didn't know about a 3-D application, but I will welcome it if it arrives.

- David D.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by dddiam

And the Samsung 120 Hz - David D.

model#

[Lensman]

[quote=mbhuff;6761046]No. The sole purpose of 120hz as mentioned before is to provide an even multiple for both film (24 frames per sec) and video (30 frames per second).[quote]
That should really read: "The sole good purpose". Most manufacturers of 120hz HDTVs actually taut their frame interpolation which actually creates intermediate frames to smooth out motion. It looks good in the demos but many have serious doubts about its real-world performance. I think Sony calls this technology "Motion Enhancer"

On TVs that don't support 120hz, they use 3-2 pull-down or inverse telecine to add extra frames. Because of that you get motion artifacts.

Apologies for being pedantic, but here are some corrected definitions:
1. 3-2 pull down - technique by which 24 fps film sources are converted to 60hz interlaced video.
2. Inverse telecine (also known as reverse 3-2 pulldown) - technique by which 60 field per second interlaced video (30 interlaced frames per second) is "back converted" to a progressive 24 frames per second. Note that when this is displayed on standard 30 (progressive) frames per second video output, every fourth frame is repeated. On slow pans, this duplicate frame can sometimes be seen as a slight jerkiness in the pan. This is known as judder.

Most, but not all, Blu-Ray discs that are mastered from film are preserved in 1080p24. Since 5 x 24 = 120, then TV can just add 5 x frames as needed with no artifacts. I've got the 52" Sony XBR6 and the Denon 2500 blu-ray. The results are amazing.

I agree completely. You do have to turn off the "Motion Enhancer" feature, though.

[dddiam]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

model#

Sorry. I have the Samsung LN46A850. Some of the lesser models also have the interpolated motion feature.

BTW, Another improvement over last year's models is 4ms response time (last year's models had 8ms response time).

- David

[mattack]

I could swear that on the HD & Home Theater podcast, they have done reviews and said the 120 Hz TVs were good.. but maybe I'm misremembering. (I know absolutely they have mentioned the 100 Hz feature..)

[chicagobrownblue]

You may want to look for a built in DVD player which is available on some reasonably priced sets up to 32". Generally, you can't really notice much improvement on a 1080p set versus a 720p set at under 42 inches, so you might save some money by backtracking to 720p. Check out Consumer Reports over the last year for their very good short and long pieces on HDTVs.

[Enrique]

You guys should take a look at Tekzilla.com, they where talk about 120hz Tvs.

[VivaLasVegas]

Originally Posted by chicagobrownblue

You may want to look for a built in DVD player which is available on some reasonably priced sets up to 32". Generally, you can't really notice much improvement on a 1080p set versus a 720p set at under 42 inches, so you might save some money by backtracking to 720p. Check out Consumer Reports over the last year for their very good short and long pieces on HDTVs.

And Cnet's top rated TV last year was a 720p plasma

[fallingwater]

Plasma wins every time among image perfectionists.

Judge for yourself!

[dddiam]

Originally Posted by fallingwater

Plasma wins every time among image perfectionists.

Judge for yourself!

I guess that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. To me, the high end LCDs are crisper, clearer, sharper, and with better color and contrast than any plasmas that I have seen. And the 120 Hz with motion interpolation mitigates blurring caused by moving images. They are also lighter weight than plasmas.

Plasma image quality does not impress me.

Plasmas are the better choice for commercial applications, like sports bars, where they are played continuously. They are durable and won't burn in like LCDs can, and they are more cost-effective.

But for the home, I will go for a high-end LCD, like my Samsung LN46A850, rather than a plasma. And I expect that next year's LCD models will be even better.

- David