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Old 07-17-2014, 01:12 AM   #31
aridon
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
??? For pause? Recording works. You never know how long you could be away from the TiVo. Or an incorrect button press and the buffer is gone. I learned in the early 2000's to just hit record instead of pause. It has worked well for me.
If I'm watching the last 10 minutes of a live show and someone knocks on the door or the phone rings MY viewing habits might not be conducive with just hitting record. Lets say I do just that and 45 minutes later i come back. Now I have the last 10 minutes but missed the next program. Sure I could just record the next one as well but its getting kind of stupid now when all I should of had to do was hit pause and let the TIVO not be completely retarded and ignore the 75% empty space on my Pro.

How does having a longer buffer on the engaged tuner hurt you or anyone else in any way? It doesn't.

There is no reason what so ever why we should be limited to tiny live buffers, especially on an active tuner.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:45 AM   #32
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There is no reason what so ever why we should be limited to tiny live buffers, especially on an active tuner.
That's a logical, and simple, approach that makes sense (at first glance). Pare down how much customizing I wanted, and let us have control over the active buffer/tuner.

On the flip-side (after the first glance), think of how many situations result in switching away from the currently active buffer/tuner, which would make every such instance a change of active buffer/tuner.

So, dynamic approaches to the buffer might work for some, but would be worse for others. I still find being able to (selectively) turn-off buffering attractive, but can't draft up an approach that would bear scrutiny.

So, I'm at the point where I see limited possibilities:

1. Selectable buffer size, effective across all tuners.
2. Turn off all buffering (but not scheduled recordings) in standby mode.
3. Maybe have a query before entering standby on buffer/no buffer.
4. Allow the active tuner to buffer in standby, until something scheduled might tune it away from what you would want to stay buffering (like CNN, in my case).
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:13 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by aridon View Post
If I'm watching the last 10 minutes of a live show and someone knocks on the door or the phone rings MY viewing habits might not be conducive with just hitting record. Lets say I do just that and 45 minutes later i come back. Now I have the last 10 minutes but missed the next program. Sure I could just record the next one as well but its getting kind of stupid now when all I should of had to do was hit pause and let the TIVO not be completely retarded and ignore the 75% empty space on my Pro.

How does having a longer buffer on the engaged tuner hurt you or anyone else in any way? It doesn't.

There is no reason what so ever why we should be limited to tiny live buffers, especially on an active tuner.
And if you had a recording occur after that 10 minutes that tuner could be taken and be tuned to a different channel and you would have no buffer on the previous channel. There is no guarantee the tuner will be on the same channel when you get back.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:38 AM   #34
FitzAusTex
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What I actually dislike nearly as much is how the tivo won't record the buffer of the previous show once you've moved past the end of airtime. For example, I can't record the last 28 minutes of a show at 8:02pm that ended at 8pm. Was very used to this on my previous dvr. Oh well.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:50 AM   #35
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OMG! This thread is exactly following the pattern nooneuknow posted elsewhere:

Quote:
Member A: "If you cross the street without looking, you might get ran-over".
Member B: "I crossed the street without looking, and did not get ran-over".
Member C: "I suggest never crossing the street, let the chicken do it".
Member D: "There are no streets or cars, now run along and play on the asphalt surface with the fast moving objects".
Member E: "My street is made out of concrete aggregate, so does this still apply?".
Member F: "I always cross the street without looking, and have never had a problem with being ran-over".
Member G: "I didn't look, got ran-over, and now I'm in a full body cast".
Member H: "You are all a bunch of idiots! The correct term is 'run-over' ".

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Old 07-17-2014, 11:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by FitzAusTex View Post
I'll add that I do end up using record, but my main point is that far too often I can't record an entire 60 minute show if I'm anywhere from 31 to 59:59 minutes into it.
Actually, with your "far too often" comment, I'm not sure if you're aware of this.. But you OFTEN do get far more in the actual recording than the buffer shows you.

The black box perspective people have (reasonably) hypothesized in the past is that the Tivo uses a fixed SIZE buffer, but the UI always shows you 30 minutes of buffer.. But hitting record ends up turning the whole buffer into a recording.. So you often do get the whole show when doing this.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:29 AM   #37
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Actually, with your "far too often" comment, I'm not sure if you're aware of this.. But you OFTEN do get far more in the actual recording than the buffer shows you.

The black box perspective people have (reasonably) hypothesized in the past is that the Tivo uses a fixed SIZE buffer, but the UI always shows you 30 minutes of buffer.. But hitting record ends up turning the whole buffer into a recording.. So you often do get the whole show when doing this.
The most I've ever seen a buffer backfill (not counting ultra-low bitrate music channels) beyond the 30 minutes is ~15 minutes more on some SD channels. I have yet to find a single HD channel that will add more than ~1 minute to the 30 minute buffer.

This is all based on the buffer content being within the guide data slot allocated for the current time in conjunction with the buffer for the program in that slot being past 30 minutes into that program. Another factor is that the actual tuner being used, has been on the same channel, without being changed-away and back, etc.

Example HD scenario:
Guide says: This HD Program 1PM-2PM
Current time is: 1:45PM
Pressing record results in: This HD Program, missing the first 15 minutes.

It doesn't even matter if it's the active program, buffering from the same tuner, on the same channel, for a week. 30 minutes is what I get.

Example SD scenario:
Guide says: This SD Program 1PM-2PM
Current time is: 1:45PM
Pressing record results in: This SD Program, anywhere from the beginning (but not before the beginning) to missing the first 15 minutes (there's no consistency to it).

Example Music Channel scenario (music, with very little video activity):
Guide says: MC Rock Hits 2PM-6PM
Current time is 5:59PM
Pressing record results in: Entire 4hr recording, as listed in the guide.

This is more like what you speak of. The non-recording buffer bar shows 30 minutes, and it can't RW before the beginning of that 30 minute indicator. The record button gets the whole slot and the whole bar, and everything is as it should/would be, if I had just set a scheduled recording for it.

Anything on SDV, not on the foreground/active tuner, tends to lose all of the buffer. Even if in the foreground, and TV is then turned off, upon turning the TV on, there will be no buffer, as the SDV system has the ability to detect the state of things via the Tuning Adapter, and unlock the tuning. SDV wouldn't work, if every tuner of every box was able to hold onto a SDV frequency indefinitely. I've found the only way to keep a SDV buffer is to keep the TV on, not use TiVo standby mode, and keep it in the foreground. KMTTG has a feature that will tell you what each tuner is on, what is in the foreground, and will state "loopset" when the TiVo decides the foreground tuner isn't being actively used for anything, especially when it's SDV (takes a lot less for SDV channels in the foreground to be declared idle).

Something that used to happen for SD/HD:
Guide says: Prior Program 1-2PM, Current Program 2-3PM
Current time is: 2:35PM
Pressing record (used to) result in: Prior Program's last x to xx minutes tacked onto the beginning of Current Program, and "Current Program" is what lists in My Shows. Often less backfill in HD, than SD.

Where I've seen exceptions to everything (except SDV or music) so far, is when the tuner involved had recorded something recently, and has stayed on the same channel since then. Sometimes the buffer is able to backfill up to 2 hours back. There's far too many different results I've seen with this to detail it all.

While I can see how some people disliked old behaviors, where backfill would/could tack on nearly the whole length of the previous program, when pressing record on a current program, resulting in current program with previous program content at the beginning, I wish I could have that back.

How would I do it to try and please both sides?

1. Pressing record from Live TV backfills as much as it can, within reason.
2. Choosing guide, then using the guide to record, only backfills enough for the specifically selected guide item. This would be exceptionally great for What To Watch Now programs that just happen to be on a channel a tuner is already on.

It's simple, and as close to the best for both sides, of this never-ending debated topic, as it gets, IMO. If it seems too much "work" for anybody, to use one way to get one result, and the other way for the other result, I guess there's just no way to please such people.
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
The most I've ever seen a buffer backfill (not counting ultra-low bitrate music channels) beyond the 30 minutes is ~15 minutes more on some SD channels. I have yet to find a single HD channel that will add more than ~1 minute to the 30 minute buffer.

..................
Just in the last few weeks, I've had several recordings I initiated from the buffer, from HD channels, and it picked up five to eight minutes of the previous show.
The most recent one was this past Sunday. From the Science channel.
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:52 PM   #39
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I'm 99% positive I've seen close to a half hour on SD channels. I don't remember at the moment how far back I've seen it go on HD channels..
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Old 07-19-2014, 03:46 AM   #40
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Instead of replying to every post on the matter, I'll just say that this must be a YMMV situation.

I think my experience with pressing record at 3:59 into a 4 hour music channel (resulting in getting the whole 4 hour segment) proves the amount of extra buffering that can backfill when record is pressed is proof of video bitrate being a factor in how much "invisible buffer" can be retrieved.

I attribute any difference with Discovery, Science, etc., to many providers using H.264 encoding, which is more compressed (in an effective manner).

It's not like as if the "invisible buffer" isn't there, if the drive has adequate space to prevent it from being overwritten.

As far as getting some of the past program tacked-on by pressing record, I'll go with YMMV. But, I still like the concept I presented before about using the guide giving clean cuts, and using record backfilling as much as possible (within reason).
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 07-20-2014 at 12:54 AM. Reason: grammar/context correction
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Old 07-19-2014, 03:53 AM   #41
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Just in the last few weeks, I've had several recordings I initiated from the buffer, from HD channels, and it picked up five to eight minutes of the previous show.
The most recent one was this past Sunday. From the Science channel.
The devil in the details missing here is had you filled the buffer past the 30-minute mark into the currently slotted program?

If the buffer was not exhausted, it's like having a whole different conversation.

What I'm talking about (currently) is centered around that being the case. If you were only 22 minutes into the program and got 8 minutes of the previous program, it's more about being within the visible green bar buffer. I've been speaking of what sometimes can show up beyond (before) the visible indicator.
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:21 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
The devil in the details missing here is had you filled the buffer past the 30-minute mark into the currently slotted program?

If the buffer was not exhausted, it's like having a whole different conversation.

What I'm talking about (currently) is centered around that being the case. If you were only 22 minutes into the program and got 8 minutes of the previous program, it's more about being within the visible green bar buffer. I've been speaking of what sometimes can show up beyond (before) the visible indicator.
Yes there was content beyond the visible buffer in the recent things I saw.. Just like if I were to press record on a show that was already at the 35 minute mark, the entire show, with another five minutes from the beginning will still be in the recording

For me it is more noticeable with the previous show because I'm not expecting any of it to be there. And in those few instances recently, it was alot more than I expected. I would prefer that content to be cut off if possible.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:14 AM   #43
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Yes there was content beyond the visible buffer in the recent things I saw.. Just like if I were to press record on a show that was already at the 35 minute mark, the entire show, with another five minutes from the beginning will still be in the recording

For me it is more noticeable with the previous show because I'm not expecting any of it to be there. And in those few instances recently, it was alot more than I expected. I would prefer that content to be cut off if possible.
OK, that fills in that blank, and a few others.

We both know some like the buffer to go back further if recording is initiated, and some want to insure the buffers cleaves off at where the guide data changes the programming.

Are there any ways you would like to suggest to accommodate both sides? I presented my preferences and a suggestion for both sides. Of course, this doesn't even include factors for those who would rather see the non-recording visible green buffer bar (progress bar) be something greater than the 30 minute length TiVo imposed.

I get the impression that some of the variables and limitations lie within the same method that TiVo tried to use to eliminate the need for 2 tuners for a same-channel overlap recording. I think what TiVo tried to do there, which created a minor video glitch, and a major scheduler problem (for some), would be the same way they could prevent us from getting the previous program's content tacked onto the current content slot.

Sometimes TiVo changes things, and doesn't give us a choice, like unilaterally removing the HD Recordings folder, but then gives choices on things, like the new 1st column folders, what is there, in what order, etc. Why couldn't HD Recordings be a choice for that column? Those who find it useless could opt to not display it.

I'm trying to collect data-points, get as much of a consensus as possible, then submit it to TiVo, and ask others to submit the same balanced concept, which just might (don't hold breath) get a result that everybody can live with.

This whole post could be worded better. But, it's "just one of those days" for me...
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:32 AM   #44
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I didn't mind the HD folder so much, but it was the fact that there was not an SD folder too. FOr me an SD folder would have made much more sense. SInce even twelve years ago most of the content I watched was in HD.
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