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Old 05-10-2012, 01:30 PM   #121
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Wasn't there a guy shouting on street corners saying that Joffrey is illegitimate?
Yes. Someone from the crowd yelled "he's a bastard"
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:33 PM   #122
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I could be wrong in my memory of what happened, but I thought Ned's proof had gotten to Stannis.
Well...

even Ned's "proof" is circumstantial at best. All the Baratheon kids have black hair. Joffrey has blonde hair. Cersei and Jaime are RUMORED to have sex with each other.

Cersei is Blonde; maybe her seed was stronger than Robert's!
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:45 PM   #123
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Wasn't there a guy shouting on street corners saying that Joffrey is illegitimate? I thought the story had spread pretty far. After all, if Stannis wants to use it to claim the throne, he needs the people to know why his claim is just and be behind him.
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I could be wrong in my memory of what happened, but I thought Ned's proof had gotten to Stannis.
In the show, Ned raven-mailed Stannis with the truth. Stannis knows what he knows to be true because Ned confirmed it for him. Stannis then raven-mailed the entire country. Some people believe Stannis, some don't.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:47 PM   #124
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Well...

even Ned's "proof" is circumstantial at best. All the Baratheon kids have black hair. Joffrey has blonde hair. Cersei and Jaime are RUMORED to have sex with each other.

Cersei is Blonde; maybe her seed was stronger than Robert's!
Ned also had Cersei's confession after he confronted her with the truth.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:48 PM   #125
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In the show, Ned raven-mailed Stannis with the truth. Stannis knows what he knows to be true because Ned confirmed it for him. Stannis then raven-mailed the entire country. Some people believe Stannis, some don't.
That's what I thought. And that's the reason why Stannis believes he should be King.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:52 PM   #126
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Ned also had Cersei's confession after he confronted her with the truth.
...a conversation that Cersei surely denies ever having taken place
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:53 PM   #127
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Also Cersei as much as admitted it to Ned, Ned may have included that in the raven he sent to Stannis. Also even if Stannis didn't believe Ned's raven, I think his suspicions might have been raised by Cersei and Goffrey's subsequent actions (Beheading Ned, killing of he bastards).
Also since Stannis wants to be king, he is probably more inclined to believe facts (or theories) that support the idea, kind of like the "Birthers" who refuse to believe Obama was born in Hawaii.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:02 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Shaunnick View Post
In the show, Ned raven-mailed Stannis with the truth. Stannis knows what he knows to be true because Ned confirmed it for him. Stannis then raven-mailed the entire country. Some people believe Stannis, some don't.
Not 'zactly. Ned wrote the document by hand and handed it to one of his men as a courier and said, "Put this in Lord Stanis's hand. Do not hand it to his man..."

As we saw Raven Express can be tapped with an arrow.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:11 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Anubys

...a conversation that Cersei surely denies ever having taken place
Right. Is there any true way to prove Joffrey isn't a Baratheon other than getting a confession from Cersei or Jamie? It's not as if they can run DNA. And hell even those two cannot be 100% certain unless she was only sleeping with Jamie and obviously that isn't the case or Robert would have known.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:28 PM   #130
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I don't think there's any way it can be proven. So Joffrey will just have to die, preferably slowly.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:40 PM   #131
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Not 'zactly. Ned wrote the document by hand and handed it to one of his men as a courier and said, "Put this in Lord Stanis's hand. Do not hand it to his man..."

As we saw Raven Express can be tapped with an arrow.
Stannis specifically mentions later that Ned intended for him to be the heir, it was based off of the letter.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:43 PM   #132
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I don't think there's any way it can be proven. So Joffrey will just have to die, preferably slowly.

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Old 05-11-2012, 06:45 AM   #133
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Right. Is there any true way to prove Joffrey isn't a Baratheon other than getting a confession from Cersei or Jamie? It's not as if they can run DNA. And hell even those two cannot be 100% certain unless she was only sleeping with Jamie and obviously that isn't the case or Robert would have known.
Agreed. Would Cersei herself even know for sure?! (I know I'm repeating what you just said, I just felt it deserved to be repeated!)
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:19 AM   #134
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Agreed. Would Cersei herself even know for sure?! (I know I'm repeating what you just said, I just felt it deserved to be repeated!)
If I recall correctly, Cersei told Ned that she because Robert was always so drunk, she was able to "satisfy" Robert in other ways than intercourse. So it appears that Cersei was only having intercourse with Jamie when she got pregnant.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:22 AM   #135
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If I recall correctly, Cersei told Ned that she because Robert was always so drunk, she was able to "satisfy" Robert in other ways than intercourse. So it appears that Cersei was only having intercourse with Jamie when she got pregnant.
oh yeah...I remember that now. Thanks!
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:33 AM   #136
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If I recall correctly, Cersei told Ned that she because Robert was always so drunk, she was able to "satisfy" Robert in other ways than intercourse. So it appears that Cersei was only having intercourse with Jamie when she got pregnant.
So we are to assume that he didn't remember NEVER having sex with her because she satisfied him in other ways? Not sure I buy that.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:52 AM   #137
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So we are to assume that he didn't remember NEVER having sex with her because she satisfied him in other ways? Not sure I buy that.
Well, like any other marriage, sex drops off (sigh) as the years go on. Especially in this one, I assume they did it enough at the beginning (don't forget the dark-haired boy who died as an infant) and then tailed off as time passed.

So he visited her every once in a while to do his duty (and probably to spite her and her family) and have more heirs. She let him visit at enough intervals to keep him from knowing the truth in case Jaime got her pregnant.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:15 AM   #138
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So we are to assume that he didn't remember NEVER having sex with her because she satisfied him in other ways? Not sure I buy that.
Remember, he was always very drunk. All she would have to do the next morning is swoon over how awesome he was and he'd believe her.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:23 AM   #139
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Plus he screwed around. A lot.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:46 AM   #140
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Remember, he was always very drunk. All she would have to do the next morning is swoon over how awesome he was and he'd believe her.
That really works? Who knew!
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:17 PM   #141
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I don't think there's any way it can be proven. So Joffrey will just have to die, preferably slowly.
Better yet, let's make his queen be Janice Soprano. They'd be made for each other and that would be fun to watch.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:40 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Anubys

Well...

even Ned's "proof" is circumstantial at best. All the Baratheon kids have black hair. Joffrey has blonde hair. Cersei and Jaime are RUMORED to have sex with each other.

Cersei is Blonde; maybe her seed was stronger than Robert's!
Wonder how genetics works in this land. It would have been more convincing if all the Baratheons were blonde and the little bastard (both literally and figuratively) were dark haired.

Not unheard of for a dark haired man and a blonde woman to have a fair haired child. Blonde hair is recessive but could run in the Baratheon genetics.
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