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Old 05-02-2012, 12:02 PM   #31
matt@thehickmans
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Originally Posted by Steveknj View Post
Remember, up until recently we all kind of thought The Observers were good, but now, we see they aren't?.
The Observers started out as bad guys. I direct you to Season 2 episode 3 "The Fracture" http://fringepedia.net/wiki/Fracture In this episode a character named Raymond Gordon said:

"We don't know who they are. But I can tell you what they want. They want to exterminate us."

He was talking about the Observers.

The series rehabilitated the Observers after that, presenting them in a positive light. They saved Peter, they helped Walter. They were making sure Walter would let Peter use the machine to fix the universes. August changed history to save a little girl and willingly sacrificed himself to make her 'important."

So the possibility that they were really bad guys has always been there.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:09 PM   #32
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You're over-thinking this. It's only TV
TV does get held to a lower standard than say, comic books or science fiction novels. But egregious logical inconsistencies and ignorance of High School level science is just laziness.

I just want their explanations not to be like fingernails on a chalkboard. They should not be so implausible as to distract from the story. And the explanations need not be if they had or listened to a science/technical adviser
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by matt@thehickmans View Post
The Observers started out as bad guys. I direct you to Season 2 episode 3 "The Fracture" http://fringepedia.net/wiki/Fracture In this episode a character named Raymond Gordon said:

"We don't know who they are. But I can tell you what they want. They want to exterminate us."
Am I mistaken, or aren't the observers just US in the future? Wouldn't killing us, kill them?
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by matt@thehickmans View Post
TV does get held to a lower standard than say, comic books or science fiction novels. But egregious logical inconsistencies and ignorance of High School level science is just laziness.

I just want their explanations not to be like fingernails on a chalkboard. They should not be so implausible as to distract from the story. And the explanations need not be if they had or listened to a science/technical adviser
I bet a lot of us forgot most of their high school level science

I want TV to be entertaining. If they stretch to laws of science to make it so, then I don't care! I don't even think about such things as you are describing. I care more about what happens to Peter or whether Lincoln and Bolivia will hook up. To me Fringe is as much about the characters which I have had a vested interest in, as in the science behind it. The same could be said for Lost or any other show that has some science behind it. We are talking about a show where a character created a monster in a lab. Once stuff like this happens, scientific explanations of other occurrences really don't matter, do they?
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:35 PM   #35
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Am I mistaken, or aren't the observers just US in the future? Wouldn't killing us, kill them?
They are evolutionary descendants of humans from a future universe (assuming September was telling the truth to Peter when Peter was in September's head), but I don't think it is known which future universe. My impression was that they were kind of on the outside of each of the universes the show has presented - that they are not a part of the system and so would not necessarily be themselves affected if the system were to implode. I haven't really been able to process how or whether any of this is affected by what we saw of them in the recent episode set in 2036.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:46 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by matt@thehickmans View Post
Walter's presentation showed the collapse of two planets into a black hole. DR Jones' Cortexiphan kids were spread out on one planet, not throughout the universe. The show has consistently treated the two universes like they only consisted of the two worlds, Red and Blue Earths.

If DR Jones is trying to collapse the two on each other, it will be like Westfield with the surface of the Earth being turned int a vast wasteland. Why the writers interjected this black hole/big bang thing in may be revealed later, but makes no sense now. And since they did interject it, they shouldn't have made Walter and the rest look so ignorant.
It's my understanding that the universes are identical except for the two Earths. So there are two complete universes, with the only difference between the two that Earth evolved slightly differently in each. It doesn't make sense to depict the whole universe collapsing, because for all intents and purposes, the collapse of each Earth is synonymous with the collapse of each universe, since that's the only difference between the two.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:25 PM   #37
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It's my understanding that the universes are identical except for the two Earth.
Where'd you get that impression?

I don't recall anything said about the rest of the universe. How would anyone know whether or not all the other inhabited planets are identical?
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by matt@thehickmans View Post
If DR Jones is trying to collapse the two on each other, it will be like Westfield with the surface of the Earth being turned int a vast wasteland. Why the writers interjected this black hole/big bang thing in may be revealed later, but makes no sense now. And since they did interject it, they shouldn't have made Walter and the rest look so ignorant.
They had Olivia locate and spy on one of Jones's minions from another universe via a telepathic connection to that person's twin in her own universe, and this is the part you are objecting to on logical grounds?
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:43 AM   #39
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They had Olivia locate and spy on one of Jones's minions from another universe via a telepathic connection to that person's twin in her own universe, and this is the part you are objecting to on logical grounds?
LOL


I agree that some people are over thinking this.
Walter is speculating that the universe(s) will be destroyed, and they would be, from their perspective.
What actually happens might be that there is just a "shift in existence".
The "safe zone" is just an area that one can endure the shift and retain the knowledge that was obtained before the shift occurred.
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Old 05-05-2012, 09:20 PM   #40
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They had Olivia locate and spy on one of Jones's minions from another universe via a telepathic connection to that person's twin in her own universe, and this is the part you are objecting to on logical grounds?
No. I object to the idea Walter had, how he presented it and how the rest of the people in the room reacted to it.

First: There is no actual evidence, even circumstantial, that DR Jones wanted to do anything more that create a wasteland on the surface of the Earth.

Second: Walter shows the red and blue Earths collapsing to make a black hole. It takes a star massing about 9 times the size of the sun to create a black hole. And the Earth is about one millionth the mass of the sun. That would mean it would take about 9 million Earths to create a black hole. Walter only showed two.

He could have mentioned that the process would be accelerated by the Amphilicite Jones has, but doesn't. And if it involved the entireties of both universes collapsing, he might want to mention it would take billions of years for the matter to come together.

Third: Walter then has the black hole rebounding into a big bang. He really needs some smoke and mirrors, gobbledygook pseudo scientific explanation to support this, because on the face of it, it is nonsense. Also, again it would take billions of years for Earth or an Earth-like planet to reform after a big bang. DR Jones just doesn't strike me as having that amount of patience, much less that kind of life-span.

Fourth: No one in the room brings up any of these logical inconsistencies. Peter and Walternate have the background to question this nonsense but do not. Olivia/Fauxlivia probably do as well.

Telepathy is not something I object to. It is a virtual certainty that it does not exist in real life. But, fictionally speaking, the writers can lay down some rules on how it works within the context of the story and follow those rules. If they do that, I am perfectly happy.

What gets me is when the writers are not logically consistent with the rules they have laid down for the story and end up breaking them or ignoring them altogether. That knocks me out of the story and breaks my suspension of disbelief. when they bring in real science, they need to either follow real science or make it clear what they have changed about it.
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Old 05-06-2012, 04:51 AM   #41
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When they bring in real science, they need to either follow real science or make it clear what they have changed about it.
Heh.

Do you ever actually watch this show?
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:33 AM   #42
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Heh.

Do you ever actually watch this show?
Really....I mean....really....
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