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Old 08-25-2014, 11:57 AM   #151
trip1eX
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Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
Where did you get that from? Use the link I posted to TiVo's web site about the OTA only Roamio and then click on the "plus monthly service" link the pop up talks about lifetime just like on a normal Roamio.
edit: ok I see the same thing.

But it also says in the fine print that under certain promotions lifetime may not be offered.
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:45 PM   #152
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While that may be true in your case, it doesn't even come close to what others may do. It all depends entirely on your viewing habits, which vary considerably from viewer to viewer. During the fall season, I generally have more OTA tuners recording than cablecard tuners at any given time. Best case is that they're split 50-50. Even if you are recording only from cable, the OTA channels are still going to see the most activity in the majority of cases.

Unless you watch a lot of niche programming, most viewers tend to watch network TV and shows unique to certain cable channels, like Fx, USA, TNT, A&E, etc. The rest of the channels attract such small viewing audiences as to be almost insignificant. The largest market shares go to the channels I already mentioned.
My point is that if you have cable, you will have MORE to record than with OTA, no matter what the split is. I'm sure there are some people who watch primarily network TV, but among the people that I know, much of their viewing is cable or premium.

Sports is a huge driver on cable, and there are a number of other networks that are very popular. And then premiums. HBO has been on a roll lately with content.

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It would appear that Tivo sees the OTA-only market as a viable one with this announcement:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/25/tivo-roamio-ota-dvr/

Now this thread takes on some real meaning with a proper head to head comparison.
Yeah, this is an interesting move for TiVo. I'm surprised that they built a product for OTA-only, and without Lifetime at that.

However, I'm glad to see that they are paying attention to the retail market. The Plus/Pro/T6 was at least in part made for Suddenlink and RCN, even though it takes the cake as the most powerful standalone DVR on the market.

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And this could either make or break it as a successful product. It's being sold as a limited edition, most likely to test the waters and see if there's a viable market for it. Without lifetime being available, the other OTA DVRs may be a more desirable product from a cost perspective. I think Tivo needs to offer lifetime if they have any hope of this product's success.
Uh oh, I have to agree with you on something! They definitely need Lifetime. The other OTA DVRs have it, as do all the other TiVos. And these so-called "cord cutters" are especially sensitive to monthly fees.
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Old 08-25-2014, 03:54 PM   #153
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My point is that if you have cable, you will have MORE to record than with OTA, no matter what the split is. I'm sure there are some people who watch primarily network TV, but among the people that I know, much of their viewing is cable or premium.
I have FIOS and I definitely have more choices than OTA. However, the actual number of programs that I find desirable on cable are generally less than what I record via OTA. Obviously, this varies considerably based on each viewer's tastes. The point being, more does not necessarily mean better. FWIW, I am not subscribed to any premium channels. Aside from a few exclusive programs that they offer, there is very little on these channels to justify the high monthly cost, IMHO. Movies are no longer a huge draw for these channels anymore as they are available through any number of other sources.

Case in point, I subscribe to the FIOS Extreme HD package which gives me access to 332 channels, 90 of which are in HD (I don't watch any channels in SD, but my wife does and she'll have kid's channels on when the grandkids are over). Of those 332 channels, I only watch HD shows on USA, TNT, AMC, A&E, FX, BBCA, WGN, Comedy Central, SyFy, and IFC. I watch maybe one or two shows at most on the majority of these channels.

I may watch more than a few shows on others in this group, but they all tend to be aired during different seasons. That's only ten out of 332 channels that I actually watch on a regular basis, and the number of shows per channel I watch on cable is far less than what I watch on network TV via OTA. I may expand my channel count on extremely rare occasions, such as when the Ravens are playing on Thursday night and the game is only carried on the NFL Network.
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:14 PM   #154
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My point is that if you have cable, you will have MORE to record than with OTA, no matter what the split is. I'm sure there are some people who watch primarily network TV, but among the people that I know, much of their viewing is cable or premium.
I have absolutely no proof, but I actually suspect the opposite.. and I'm not JUST using myself as anecdotal data.

I have cable, and do watch various cable shows (especially this summer, there have been a bunch of new summer cable shows I've liked).. But the huge majority of what I watch at least during the main TV season is network shows. (Yes, I realize using the term "main TV season" is sort of self selecting too, since many of the cable networks purposely schedule _off_ that.)

Darn, was kind of hoping maybe this would support Amazon Prime video too -- that'd be another reason to get for cord cutters. (...I personally was hoping since it would then eventually go to the existing boxes...)
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Old 08-26-2014, 04:42 PM   #155
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I have FIOS and I definitely have more choices than OTA. However, the actual number of programs that I find desirable on cable are generally less than what I record via OTA. Obviously, this varies considerably based on each viewer's tastes. The point being, more does not necessarily mean better. FWIW, I am not subscribed to any premium channels. Aside from a few exclusive programs that they offer, there is very little on these channels to justify the high monthly cost, IMHO. Movies are no longer a huge draw for these channels anymore as they are available through any number of other sources.

Case in point, I subscribe to the FIOS Extreme HD package which gives me access to 332 channels, 90 of which are in HD (I don't watch any channels in SD, but my wife does and she'll have kid's channels on when the grandkids are over). Of those 332 channels, I only watch HD shows on USA, TNT, AMC, A&E, FX, BBCA, WGN, Comedy Central, SyFy, and IFC. I watch maybe one or two shows at most on the majority of these channels.

I may watch more than a few shows on others in this group, but they all tend to be aired during different seasons. That's only ten out of 332 channels that I actually watch on a regular basis, and the number of shows per channel I watch on cable is far less than what I watch on network TV via OTA. I may expand my channel count on extremely rare occasions, such as when the Ravens are playing on Thursday night and the game is only carried on the NFL Network.
You're totally avoiding my point. My point is that if you have cable, you will record more than if you only have OTA, because cable gives you the OTA content PLUS more. Even if you're watching 90% local channels over cable, that's still 10% more that you will record with cable versus OTA.
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Old 08-26-2014, 04:46 PM   #156
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You're totally avoiding my point. My point is that if you have cable, you will record more than if you only have OTA, because cable gives you the OTA content PLUS more. Even if you're watching 90% local channels over cable, that's still 10% more that you will record with cable versus OTA.
In my situation since I have cable I do record alot of content on cable as well as content from the national broadcast networks. But if I were only OTA, I would be watching much more OTA content since I wouldn't have those cable porgrams to watch. There are dozens of shows from OTA I would like to watch, but there is only a limited amount of time to watch so I need to pick and choose what shows I will watch. And with cable that time is further reduced. But without cable, i would still watch the same amount of Tv, just more of it would be shows from OTA broadcast networks.

My GF is OTA only and uses a couple of S3 TiVos. She has dozens of Season passes and still has things she would like to record but doesn't because she does not have the time.
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:21 AM   #157
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You're totally avoiding my point. My point is that if you have cable, you will record more than if you only have OTA, because cable gives you the OTA content PLUS more. Even if you're watching 90% local channels over cable, that's still 10% more that you will record with cable versus OTA.
I wasn't avoiding the point. I just didn't see the need to keep restating the obvious. My point was that if you compare OTA to cable (just cable channels without including OTA in the count), you definitely get tons more channels, but not necessarily a significant amount of additional content that you'd care to watch.
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Old 08-27-2014, 05:12 PM   #158
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In my situation since I have cable I do record alot of content on cable as well as content from the national broadcast networks. But if I were only OTA, I would be watching much more OTA content since I wouldn't have those cable porgrams to watch. There are dozens of shows from OTA I would like to watch, but there is only a limited amount of time to watch so I need to pick and choose what shows I will watch. And with cable that time is further reduced. But without cable, i would still watch the same amount of Tv, just more of it would be shows from OTA broadcast networks.

My GF is OTA only and uses a couple of S3 TiVos. She has dozens of Season passes and still has things she would like to record but doesn't because she does not have the time.
Interesting. I guess if you move viewing time over to OTA, you would need more tuners... Still not as many as with cable though. If you have more content available, you're likely going to watch more...
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:26 AM   #159
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If you have more content available, you're likely going to watch more...
In theory, perhaps. It all depends on the content. If your provider added 100 more channels but those channels only included shopping networks, religious channels, cooking shows, or other content that was of absolutely no interest to you, would you still watch them just because there was more to watch? I see new channels added to my lineup all the time, but I don't watch more TV as a result.

It's all about quantity vs. quality, with quality reflecting the kind of shows you prefer to watch as opposed to channels that hold no interest. I watch more content from the six network OTA channels I receive than all 322 channels that I get on FIOS. To be fair, only 90 of the 322 are in HD, which is all I watch, and there are duplicates of my local channels as well, which probably brings the number of available channels on FIOS down to about 65 or 70. Of those, I only watch content from about 10 channels, and many of them are limited to just one or two shows per channel.
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:20 PM   #160
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I wasn't avoiding the point. I just didn't see the need to keep restating the obvious. My point was that if you compare OTA to cable (just cable channels without including OTA in the count), you definitely get tons more channels, but not necessarily a significant amount of additional content that you'd care to watch.

YOu're arguing from the perspective of a random individual. Bigg is arguing from the perspective of a big scoop of households and the resulting usage pattern you would see.

That's why you are avoiding his point. You are arguing the exception.

It's like if someone says Seattle is rainy. And then you say no it isn't. It was sunny yesterday. Ok. Point missed.

And realize the argument your posts leads to. That people pay for cable because they don't get significant amounts of additional content that they care about.
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:08 PM   #161
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YOu're arguing from the perspective of a random individual. Bigg is arguing from the perspective of a big scoop of households and the resulting usage pattern you would see.

That's why you are avoiding his point. You are arguing the exception.

It's like if someone says Seattle is rainy. And then you say no it isn't. It was sunny yesterday. Ok. Point missed.

And realize the argument your posts leads to. That people pay for cable because they don't get significant amounts of additional content that they care about.
Yup. Well said.
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:14 AM   #162
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You were comparing the cost of the equipment to the cost of the programming, which are two totally different things. You need the equipment either way. With OTA, you have to buy it, with cable, you can buy TiVo or rent your cable provider's DVR.
The cost of the equipment and the programming are most certainly related, because the sum of the two represents the total cost of watching TV. Over time the cost of cable programming is by far the biggest expense for watching cable tv. Since there is no charge for receiving OTA programming, more cash is available for the equipment and the monthly cost becomes insignificant when spread out over the life of the equipment

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To address your unrelated point about tuner overlap, that same overlap would still occur on cable, except now you layer cable channels on top. Even if you can work all the cable shows around the OTA ones, you still have the same OTA ones to record. So cable DVRs will always need way more tuners than OTA.
Your reasoning is defective. Obviously you would need more tuners to capture all of the cable programming, but that's not the point. The point is with cable programming you have more choices and they all aren't on during prime time, so you can find more programming to watch with less tuners.

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Dish's crappy Hopper has 3 tuners, one of which will do ONLY locals, since they are grouped on the TP. Thus, you sort of get 6 total, but if you want more than two "cable" channels at once, you're screwed. The Genie's or X1's 5 real tuners will be better 99% of the time, and the Verizon DVR's or TiVo Premiere's 6 real tuners are always better, since any of them can record any channel. PTAT is a desperate attempt to hide the failings of the Hopper system.
Again, your reasoning is defective. You seem to think the inadequacies of the hopper some how invalidate the demand to capture all of the prime time OTA programming. The 6 tuner OTA DVR would be better than the hopper and have a cheaper total cost for watching TV for someone who watches mostly broadcast network programming.
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:23 PM   #163
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The cost of the equipment and the programming are most certainly related, because the sum of the two represents the total cost of watching TV. Over time the cost of cable programming is by far the biggest expense for watching cable tv. Since there is no charge for receiving OTA programming, more cash is available for the equipment and the monthly cost becomes insignificant when spread out over the life of the equipment
NO. You can't say that by buying a TiVo and using OTA, you are somehow saving money on cable. First, you aren't getting the same content, and secondly, with cable, you still have to pay the same for a DVR, so the two are really totally separate things. They are only fair to compare once you venture outside of OTA/cable/FIOS and you have to look at equipment provided by the service provider that may be priced totally differently from TiVo.

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Your reasoning is defective. Obviously you would need more tuners to capture all of the cable programming, but that's not the point. The point is with cable programming you have more choices and they all aren't on during prime time, so you can find more programming to watch with less tuners.
I was looking at watching xyz OTA content with OTA vs watching the same on cable PLUS cable channels.

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Again, your reasoning is defective. You seem to think the inadequacies of the hopper some how invalidate the demand to capture all of the prime time OTA programming. The 6 tuner OTA DVR would be better than the hopper and have a cheaper total cost for watching TV for someone who watches mostly broadcast network programming.
Wow. You completely missed my point. My point is that the Hopper is crippled. The ideal is a 6 tuner DVR that can record ANY 6 shows, likely 3+ of them will be cable channels if you're using all 6 tuners. The Hopper can basically record 2 shows, and if you happen to record something from a local channel, that's a freebie.

The Hopper is a crippled POS.
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:15 PM   #164
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YOu're arguing from the perspective of a random individual. Bigg is arguing from the perspective of a big scoop of households and the resulting usage pattern you would see.

That's why you are avoiding his point. You are arguing the exception.
No, I'm pointing out reality. Just because you have more channels on cable, you don't necessarily have more content that you'd prefer to watch. Network TV captures the largest viewing audience on just about any given night, with very few exceptions. That's not to say there aren't a lot of people that watch more shows on cable vs. network TV. It's just that those that do are scattered all over the place. My point is that the each of the shows on cable grab a miniscule audience vs. network TV.

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It's like if someone says Seattle is rainy. And then you say no it isn't. It was sunny yesterday. Ok. Point missed.
I've been to Seattle on both sunny and rainy days. Absolute world of difference.

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And realize the argument your posts leads to. That people pay for cable because they don't get significant amounts of additional content that they care about.
I realize a lot of people get cable for the variety and selection it offers. Problem is, everyone I've ever known ended up getting disgruntled with the choices on cable after the novelty wore off. Let's face it, 300 channels of crap isn't going to grab the lions share of viewers. Most people tend to migrate to just a handful of channels that carry the shows that interest them and simply ignore the rest. This is why so many people keep wanting a la carte cable subscriptions. Unfortunately, that sort of subscription service would end up costing the customer more in the long run so it's cheaper to go with the bundled packages.

Now be honest. Do you actually watch all of the channels you receive in the package you subscribe to or do you primarily only watch a select group of channels?

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Old 08-30-2014, 06:23 AM   #165
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No, I'm pointing out reality. Just because you have more channels on cable, you don't necessarily have more content that you'd prefer to watch. Network TV captures the largest viewing audience on just about any given night, with very few exceptions. That's not to say there aren't a lot of people that watch more shows on cable vs. network TV. It's just that those that do are scattered all over the place. My point is that the each of the shows on cable grab a miniscule audience vs. network TV.
You're still arguing a fringe use case. The vast majority of people with cable watch a lot more TV than people with OTA only because there's more to watch. Sure, the four networks each capture more than the dozens of cable channels, but the dozens of cable channels combined likely capture more viewing than the networks, especially when you count HBO or looks at sports.

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I've been to Seattle on both sunny and rainy days. Absolute world of difference.
Right. Sunny days are the exception to the rule.

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I realize a lot of people get cable for the variety and selection it offers. Problem is, everyone I've ever known ended up getting disgruntled with the choices on cable after the novelty wore off. Let's face it, 300 channels of crap isn't going to grab the lions share of viewers. Most people tend to migrate to just a handful of channels that carry the shows that interest them and simply ignore the rest. This is why so many people keep wanting a la carte cable subscriptions. Unfortunately, that sort of subscription service would end up costing the customer more in the long run so it's cheaper to go with the bundled packages.

Now be honest. Do you actually watch all of the channels you receive in the package you subscribe to or do you primarily only watch a select group of channels?
HBO. Sports. An occasional good show on cable. No, I only watch a select group of channels. But the flip side of that is that I only record one show during the regular TV season off the big 4, although a good chunk of my viewing is PBS. My mainstay for scripted TV that's just entertainment is HBO, for news and information it's Comedy Central, MSNBC, and HBO, for sports it's whatever my team is on, which is like 10 different channels throughout the season.
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Old 08-30-2014, 06:33 AM   #166
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Here is a recent review of Simple.TV. I don't think it has been linked here previously.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/simple-t...view-2324.html
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