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Old 09-09-2014, 12:38 AM   #2071
nooneuknow
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Originally Posted by mattack View Post
So what is Tivo doing in their Mega, and will it help get a >3 TB Tivo "easily"? (i.e. we're already beyond the built in 3 TB auto-upgrade for "relatively cheap drives")
From the reports I've seen, even TiVo can't get their facts straight, like if they are using RAID 5 or 6. The total capacity says one, the RAID level says another. Until it gets past the speculation and rumor threads, which have probably went from 5 to 10 threads, since I last checked, I honestly don't have a clue, and honestly don't want to bring the speculation here. I get into enough trouble trying to make an educated guesstimate of how well single drives will hold up in 6 tuner TiVos.

I do figure that there's a chance the existence of the Mega has forced TiVo to code in ways that can use a >20TB logical volume, which could be good news if TiVo still tries to keep their software unified. Until the product is actually being sold, and the right people get their hands on it, nobody here knows, that I'm aware of. The reports say it supports 10x3TB drives, but some speculate with only 6 tuners, it's just the "Mega basic model"... See what I mean?
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 09-09-2014 at 01:41 AM. Reason: changed "has" to "supports" 10x3TB drives
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:14 AM   #2072
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Originally Posted by JWhites View Post
The current Western Digital MyBook AV expanders are all running the WD AV WD10EURX drives which brings 64 MB of cache and Buffer To Host rate of 6 Gb/s (Max).
...and... I'm lost. While the host (TiVo) has a chipset that the TiVo logs would indicate SATA-3 (6Gb/s) support, the logs show it negotiates all drives down to SATA-1, and uses basic IDE compatibility mode.

SATA-1 is 150MB/s, and the fastest AV-GP peaks at ~137MB/s sequential read on the outermost, fastest, tracks. Even the fastest Red NAS peaks at ~157MB/s, same deal with specifics.

You have to get up to 7200RPM (Red NAS Pro), before SATA-2 is really of use, and closer to 10,000RPM before a platter drive can taste SATA-3 speed. Only SSDs can saturate SATA-3.

Green drives are hobbled by low RPM, low seek performance, and low processing power (on-drive processing). Throw in anything not sequential, and the performance falls off a cliff. Unless what needs to be read, just happens to be in the cache, the higher interface to host rate can't help, especially when TiVo seems to want (or it is required) that communication rate dialed down to the same as it has been since the S3. If you can figure out why TiVo does this, you earn a gold star in my book. I only know they do it, not the "why" they do it. My best guess is they require consistency in the data flow, and having burst rates might be problematic, in any number of ways, unless they throw out their coding and start over.

Also, the eSATA port is done via port-multiplier, which shares the bandwidth of a single channel. The way TiVo "stripes" when using an added eSATA drive isn't any form of RAID. It's purely proprietary to TiVo, and not a performance enhancement.
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Old 09-09-2014, 11:44 AM   #2073
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Originally Posted by danm628 View Post
My advice: Look what people say works well. Look at pricing. Buy what you feel happy with. And enjoy. It is just a TV. It is the best TV ever but still it is a TV.
Snipped as folks can read the whole thing above...

+1

Finally, a long post worth reading!
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Old 09-09-2014, 11:54 AM   #2074
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I looked at Seagates when shopping for a 4 tb drive for my Roamio Plus. They were more expensive than WD and I wasn't convinced they were worth the price difference.
The higher capacity Seagates use more power than an equivalent WD size drive. That is the reason I would not use a 4TB Seagate in my TiVo. At least that was the case when I researched them earlier this Summer.

Although I use dozens of 2TB and 3TB Seagates in my three unRAID setups. I still have a few Dozen WD drives in there too, but I've only been purchasing the Seagates for the last few years instead of WD.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:50 PM   #2075
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
The trip down memory lane was nice. But, you pretty much just quoted the preface to CSC's Hard Drive Bible, from the late 80's (I still have my copy), spoke of platter lubrication, landing zones, and stiction (all eliminated around a decade ago), then gave advice for TiVo upgrades...

I do the stressing-out over modern drive technology, so the rest don't have to (unless they choose to).

Ignorance may be bliss. But, bliss is an area I have no experience with, so I wouldn't know.
I've never seen/read the Hard Drive Bible. I've been out of the drive world for 15 years now after a move back to data comm. So I have plenty of bliss about HDs.

Wireless on the other hand... No bliss at all. It's interesting and occasionally fun but not a relaxing field. It's a little better on the research side; at least now I don't have millions of people using something I built and finding bugs that I need to fix.

- Dan
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Old 09-09-2014, 04:37 PM   #2076
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Originally Posted by danm628 View Post
I've never seen/read the Hard Drive Bible. I've been out of the drive world for 15 years now after a move back to data comm. So I have plenty of bliss about HDs.
I appreciate the honesty, and you have my respect, for being honest.
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Old 09-09-2014, 05:31 PM   #2077
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Originally Posted by HomieG View Post
Snipped as folks can read the whole thing above...

+1

Finally, a long post worth reading!
I thought I was on your ignore list. I suggest you place me there, if you feel long nostalgic posts, mostly on drive issues of decades past are worth reading, but posts about what is available here and now (or what is about to come onto the market, shortly), are not.

Funny, that you had called me a "blowhard" (in another thread), for warning others that a "deal" on a drive you splattered around, was, by your own admission, a better deal (for you) because your credit card extended the warranty by a year, at no cost to you. Now, here you are, saying which long posts are worth reading...

FWIW, I enjoyed that post, as I am nostalgic. In the end, it spoke the truth about how all hard drives will die at some point, and going with what people are having the best luck with now, is at least part of good advice.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:08 PM   #2078
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I appreciate the honesty, and you have my respect, for being honest.
I've been an engineer for around 30 years now. Software and some hardware. Several patents. My name is on a few standards that lots of people use (or used -- some are now irrelevant in the modern world). Some magazine articles back in the day.

The most important thing to engineering is being honest. I respect the engineers who come to me and say they "f'd up". I will work with them to fix it and help them learn not to do it again. The engineers who hide things are the ones I will actively work to get transferred off my projects or fired (even better since they can't mess up another teams project costing the company money).

We all make mistakes. Hiding them doesn't help.

The above applies to life in general though very few actually follow it.

I do appreciate all of your posts on HDs. You are the main reason I selected an WD GP AV instead of a WD GP this time. I am well aware that things have changed since I last bought a TiVo or did an upgrade.

I did do a single read/write pass on the new drive. Something I've done on most of the drives I've purchased for the last 20+ years. It will catch a large percentage of the infant mortality drives but not all of them. I didn't do a long burn in. They may catch more infant mortality drives but they also take time that I wasn't willing to devote to it. I wanted the S3 up and running so I could leave and let it record a few things while I was gone. As I said my TiVo is just a TV. I want it to work but when it occasionally dies it isn't the end of the world.

- Dan

Last edited by danm628 : 09-09-2014 at 10:10 PM. Reason: typo and clarification
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:19 AM   #2079
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Is this a good drive and deal if anyone wants to upgrade to a 4TB? Hitachi 4TB for $99. Figured I'd pass it along if so.

http://sellout.woot.com/offers/hitac...d3d9-303976033
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:51 AM   #2080
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Is this a good drive and deal if anyone wants to upgrade to a 4TB? Hitachi 4TB for $99. Figured I'd pass it along if so.

http://sellout.woot.com/offers/hitac...d3d9-303976033
Only 32MB cache, and only a 60 day warranty?

TiVo use: I'll pass - Not a 24/7 or AV drive, not known if base Roamio can spin this up and keep stable power.
Regular use: Price is tempting for 4TB, but 32MB cache and 60 day warranty makes me think you are getting exactly what you are paying for.

If somebody wants to try one out and see what happens, at least we'd know if this drive will even work. It has no TiVo track record. I've seen a lot of off-brand 4TB external drives being sold as refurbs, and this is the drive inside them. I wonder if it had 64MB cache, and half of it had to be disabled due to a defect.

EDIT/ADD: This drive's power requirements would overload the base-Roamio wall-wart power supply on spinup, even if the drive was the only thing being powered by it. I recommend avoiding this drive for any model TiVo.
.
.
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 09-10-2014 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 04:48 AM   #2081
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Only 32MB cache, and only a 60 day warranty? TiVo use: I'll pass - Not a 24/7 or AV drive, not known if base Roamio can spin this up and keep stable power. Regular use: Price is tempting for 4TB, but 32MB cache and 60 day warranty makes me think you are getting exactly what you are paying for. If somebody wants to try one out and see what happens, at least we'd know if this drive will even work. It has no TiVo track record. I've seen a lot of off-brand 4TB external drives being sold as refurbs, and this is the drive inside them. I wonder if it had 64MB cache, and half of it had to be disabled due to a defect. EDIT/ADD: This drive's power requirements would overload the base-Roamio wall-wart power supply on spinup, even if the drive was the only thing being powered by it. I recommend avoiding this drive for any model TiVo. . .
OK, thanks for the info! I figured you'd have some good opinions on this one.
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:11 AM   #2082
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
TiVo use: I'll pass - Not a 24/7 or AV drive,
...and a zillion other 'non 24/7 or AV' drives have been used successfully in Tivos for years...
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:12 AM   #2083
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...and a zillion other 'non 24/7 or AV' drives have been used successfully in Tivos for years...
What you and nooneuknow said are both true. One statement is more liberal while the other more conservative. Both are helpful to the people looking in this forum for help and provide some balance. They get both sides and then can make up their mind on which way to lean.
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:42 AM   #2084
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I've read this about other threads, but for me, I can't believe this thread is 70 pages.

IT's a hard drive for recording tv. All you really have to do is look at what's inside your tivo (or google it) and get something with roughly equivalent rpms, power usage and maybe the operating temp spec.
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:07 AM   #2085
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I can't believe this thread is 70 pages.
There are some whose nature is to thoroughly research/analyze things to an extreme level of detail.

To a fair degree, their efforts can be a benefit to others, though it does run the risk of swamping the useful advice with too much detail.

Probably the best plan is to have separate "research" and "advice" threads; most folks don't need/want the data and verbosity of the research threads, just the final recommendations. Of course that only works if the researchers have the discipline to post in the right thread.
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:18 AM   #2086
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It's better to make an informed decision then to make a decision off of a blind recommendation. I do agree that sometimes information can become too overwhelming but it's a very finite line.
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:26 PM   #2087
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There are some whose nature is to thoroughly research/analyze things to an extreme level of detail.

To a fair degree, their efforts can be a benefit to others, though it does run the risk of swamping the useful advice with too much detail.

Probably the best plan is to have separate "research" and "advice" threads; most folks don't need/want the data and verbosity of the research threads, just the final recommendations. Of course that only works if the researchers have the discipline to post in the right thread.
This is exactly the issue with this thread and a good recommendation. I nominate noone to start the research thread.
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:37 PM   #2088
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...and a zillion other 'non 24/7 or AV' drives have been used successfully in Tivos for years...
Did I say all should pass due to it not being 24/7 or AV? No! I said "I'll pass". That is called an "opinion", which you only allow to be left un-attacked, if they match your own opinions.

Then, after doing some more digging into the drive specs, for the benefit of those who don't care if a drive is endorsed by the mfg for 24/7, or if it's an AV drive, I found cold, hard, facts on the current/amperage requirements, which showed, without even any reasonable doubt, that even if the base-Roamio's power supply was used to only power this drive (such as in an external USB/eSATA enclosure, without anything else needing any power), it would still far exceed the rated output. The drive in question, will not work in a base Roamio. I guarantee it. Even if one were to increase the size of the external power supply to accommodate it, that would risk overloading the internal circuits and components that carry the power to the drive. I then came back and added that crucial data, long before more than most could have read my post, and before anybody commented or quoted it.

Then, in usual fashion, you use the one line that you can selectively quote, to come at me with, leaving the most relevant parts (some of which can't even be disputed, unless disputing the drive's published specs are incorrect), completely out of your attack.

The drive in question requires so much spin-up current, It would be likely to stress (at minimum), or damage (potentially), power supplies in even the Plus/Pro, if they were even able to get it spun up. The drive in question does not have any of the mechanisms to stage the spinup, which even the most basic "Green" drives have in place. This is absolutely critical for use in a TiVo.

That leaves the drive in question, one that won't even work for a base Roamio, and extremely likely it won't even work for the Plus/Pro. Even if it somehow does spin up in a Plus/Pro, see the paragraph before this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
This is exactly the issue with this thread and a good recommendation. I nominate noone to start the research thread.
No "research" thread is required to see the forest for the trees, with this drive, for TiVo use.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:03 AM   #2089
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I will start by saying "thank you" to those who have actively, passively, or equally, posted supportive POVs. The supportive PMs are much appreciated, as well.

Why do I (now) tend to favor a 24/7 AV "green" drive over a plain "green" drive?
#1 Reason is that is what TiVo uses, and the same drives are available to end-user upgraders, at minimal price difference over others.
#2 Reason is that the price difference (excluding refurbs), is worth the extra year of warranty to many.
#3 Reason is #1 & #2 combined bring peace-of-mind to many, especially those new to TiVo, and/or those new to TCF, who come here to ask for information. I could list even more reasons, but I'm trying for short.

You only need look at the early portion of this thread, to see I used to be the most vocal about "not wasting money on a drive having AV features, that TiVo doesn't even use, and a 24/7 designation, which was only marketing gimmick". This was back when the price difference could buy you another drive, not the ~$10 difference, now, if you shop around. In the past, you could get non-AV WD Caviar Green drives with 3yr warranties. Those have been EOL for a while now, and had been my #1 choice (WD__EADS). Every single one failed to stay reliable in 2 tuner TiVos, after 2-3 years (the performance degraded too much, over time). Due to the (then) 3yr warranty, I got all of them replaced. But, circumstances made it practical to snap up a deal on 2TB EURS AV-GP drives, while WD processed my 6 (out of 10) drives sent back. It was the only way I could get a 3yr warranty, for a price that made sense for me.

I 100% welcome bringing more drive "contenders" to the discussions. Here's what I see as most important, if you leave AV-rated, 24/7 duty cycle, and TB/year workload rating out of the equation:

1. A "green" (energy efficient, low-current spinup) designation, making sure that you check that actual drive current specs for spinup and operating, compare to what you are intending to replace, and if higher, verify the power supply leaves room for the difference. Not all "green" or 5400/5900RPM drives actually have low-current, often "staged", spinup. Some "green" drives are only as green as the label. It's very important you get true "green" drives. This is key to the TiVo, and it's power supply, operating stably, and for longevity of everything. Since some drives are only relabeled low-performance, low-RPM drives, now called "green" for the tree-huggers, buyer beware.

2. A drive that operates creating little heat, but is able to operate in the presence of other heat, and in fanless (even non ventilated) enclosures. This gives peace of mind, knowing the drive should hold-up if the cooling fan quits working. Also, the cooler the drive is, the greater the lifespan (within reason, in both directions). Fake "green" drives often fail to run cool, and lose longevity if not able to get adequate cooling.

3. A drive that meets, or exceeds (in a good way), as many requirements and factors as the original drive, or better yet, what TiVo uses in higher-capacity models. If TiVo pays for 64MB cache, when less is an option, you probably should avoid drives that have less cache for the same, or greater, size drive capacity.

4. Warranty - This means little when it comes to if it will work for a TiVo, and how well. The only way this factors in, is that most mfgs have enough faith in a drive model, to risk potential profit losses by offer longer warranties. If you are looking at a drive, and see refurbished, remanufactured, or recertified models of it being widely available, you might want to reconsider that drive, especially if it's a new product, only on the market for a short time. If you are tempted to buy a recertified one, make sure it is recertified by the mfg, and has warranty from the mfg.

In trying to keep this short, in sure I missed a few parameters that some would feel belong included.

A final note on why some may want to use the same drive that TiVo would use, for a given capacity, is that each TiVo knows the drive model that is installed, and passes that information to TiVo with every scheduled service connection. Should you use a drive model that stands out as a model they don't use, the greater the risk of being denied support. The risk is always there, and several TCF members have been denied support, due to an unauthorized drive change. While most don't get denied warranty, so long as they put the original drive back in, some say they have (and other members are quick to pounce on them as they must have been stupid enough to tell TiVo they changed the drive).

If being able to get technical support through TiVo is very important to you, I suggest you buy a model with the capacity you need, and/or add a TiVo-approved DVR expander drive, rather than unapproved upgrading. For me, I need to have OTA fallback capability, so the base-Roamio was my only option, as was upgrading the drive.

You are also not allowed to participate in beta testing, or field trials, for upcoming software, if you don't have the stock model drive installed.
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 09-11-2014 at 05:55 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old Today, 09:48 AM   #2090
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Hard Drive Replacement Problem

Hi All,

Just replaced the stock 500GB drive in my Roamio with a 3TB WD Purple. No problems with the installation, and everything booted up fine.

Problem is I called TWC this morning to re-pair the card with my TiVo (I wasn't getting anything other than basic channels after setup), and while the tech could "see" the cable card, he couldn't get it to authorize correctly, and has no idea why.

Has anyone else had this problem? I don't think it is the hard drive, but would like confirmation of this. Everything was working fine before the hard drive replacement which is causing me to hesitate.

Thanks for your help/input!!!
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Old Today, 10:05 AM   #2091
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Hi All,

Just replaced the stock 500GB drive in my Roamio with a 3TB WD Purple. No problems with the installation, and everything booted up fine.

Problem is I called TWC this morning to re-pair the card with my TiVo (I wasn't getting anything other than basic channels after setup), and while the tech could "see" the cable card, he couldn't get it to authorize correctly, and has no idea why.

Has anyone else had this problem? I don't think it is the hard drive, but would like confirmation of this. Everything was working fine before the hard drive replacement which is causing me to hesitate.

Thanks for your help/input!!!
It's not the drive.

It's the cableco. And yes, 95% of anyone that's had to have a cable company pair a CableCARD has had that problem.

Be persistent. Ask for their CableCARD expert. Convince them they are at fault. Have them read back to you each and every number in your account. Any tiny typo in those numbers kills it.
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Old Today, 10:15 AM   #2092
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Hi All,

Just replaced the stock 500GB drive in my Roamio with a 3TB WD Purple. No problems with the installation, and everything booted up fine.

Problem is I called TWC this morning to re-pair the card with my TiVo (I wasn't getting anything other than basic channels after setup), and while the tech could "see" the cable card, he couldn't get it to authorize correctly, and has no idea why.

Has anyone else had this problem? I don't think it is the hard drive, but would like confirmation of this. Everything was working fine before the hard drive replacement which is causing me to hesitate.

Thanks for your help/input!!!
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It's not the drive.

It's the cableco. And yes, 95% of anyone that's had to have a cable company pair a CableCARD has had that problem.

Be persistent. Ask for their CableCARD expert. Convince them they are at fault. Have them read back to you each and every number in your account. Any tiny typo in those numbers kills it.
It gets even messier when you are re-pairing a CableCARD.
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Old Today, 10:45 AM   #2093
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It gets even messier when you are re-pairing a CableCARD.
True. In fact, for any new Roamio owner, I HIGHLY recommend you just yank that stock drive (make sure it boots to guided setup first), plop in a new one, let it install over the Internet, go through guided setup, THEN call your cableco, get it paired, enjoy your TiVo.
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Old Today, 11:06 AM   #2094
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True. In fact, for any new Roamio owner, I HIGHLY recommend you just yank that stock drive (make sure it boots to guided setup first), plop in a new one, let it install over the Internet, go through guided setup, THEN call your cableco, get it paired, enjoy your TiVo.
I disagree. I would recommend installing the CableCARD (don't get it paired), going through guided setup and making sure everything works before replacing the HD, re-doing guided setup and then getting the card paired.
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Old Today, 11:13 AM   #2095
jschaffhauser
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Originally Posted by ThreeSoFar View Post
It's not the drive.

It's the cableco. And yes, 95% of anyone that's had to have a cable company pair a CableCARD has had that problem.

Be persistent. Ask for their CableCARD expert. Convince them they are at fault. Have them read back to you each and every number in your account. Any tiny typo in those numbers kills it.
We went through all the numbers, and tried pairing with and without the tuning adapter attached. Frustrating part was that everything was working perfectly this morning before the hard drive replacement.

I remember last time I had to pair they wanted the EMMs (whatever those are) over like 300... this guy didn't seem to care about that and they never got over 100. The pairing kept timing out. I may try calling again later.

He wants to send a guy out to adjust my signal somehow (didn't really understand him).
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Old Today, 11:16 AM   #2096
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What brand CableCARD do you have.
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Old Today, 11:50 AM   #2097
ThreeSoFar
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Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
I disagree. I would recommend installing the CableCARD (don't get it paired), going through guided setup and making sure everything works before replacing the HD, re-doing guided setup and then getting the card paired.
Good point, actually--I'll concede this one.

Going through guided setup will check a little bit more of the hardware, which is worth doing--and it doesn't cost hardly any time.
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Old Today, 12:13 PM   #2098
jschaffhauser
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What brand CableCARD do you have.
Cisco/SA
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Old Today, 12:51 PM   #2099
nooneuknow
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This recent discussion belongs in one of the many cablecard threads, IMO.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old Today, 12:54 PM   #2100
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My experience is with the Motorola M-Cards. My recommendation is like those above. See if they can connect with a cableCARD expert. If not then ask to go their supervisor. Keep on going up the chain. I have Charter and rarely do I luck out and get someone right from the start that knows cableCARDs. I have gone up 3 supervisors before finding someone that knows what they are doing. In a sense what needs to happen is to delete the pairing and then perform the pairing all over again. Most tech support people just want to send a hit to the card. That only works if nothing has been changed. Here is TiVo's link for the Cisco cards.

I used to let them do truck rolls but I find the tech has the same issues except they usually have a more knowledgeable person when they call for support. Now I just call back different times during the day to get someone who listens and troubleshoots without going by their script. Rarely will a truck roll is needed to pair a cableCARD, especially if it was working just prior to a drive upgrade.
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