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Old 08-02-2012, 09:29 PM   #1
Bulldawg9908
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Shows permanently deleted - recently deleted shows kept?

My Family Room Premier permanently deleted all the kids shows today. I re-purposed it to record Olympics for these couple weeks and have been carefully deleting Olympics shows to prevent it from deleting all the kids shows. I figured this was easier than setting all the kids shows to keep until delete since there are so many of them.

Last night, I finished watching Olympics shows and deleted all the Olympics from the TiVo. There were still a bunch (50-70 episodes) of various kids shows at that time.

When I get home tonight, my son tells me all his shows are gone. Sure enough, he's down to just one episode of one show. I look in the recently deleted folder and find only Olympics episodes that were recorded between 7/27 and 8/1. Only about 25% of the disk is used.

So, for some reason, the 10 or so Olympics episodes in recently deleted took precedence over the shows that had not been deleted and all the kids shows but one were lost.

Has anyone seen this happen? Any idea how to avoid it in the future? Now that they're gone, it doesn't really matter. I can't get them back until the Olympics are done.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:34 PM   #2
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I have no idea what happened, but if you mark everything as keep until I delete, it definitely won't be deleted.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:47 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg9908 View Post
My Family Room Premier permanently deleted all the kids shows today. I re-purposed it to record Olympics for these couple weeks and have been carefully deleting Olympics shows to prevent it from deleting all the kids shows. I figured this was easier than setting all the kids shows to keep until delete since there are so many of them.

Last night, I finished watching Olympics shows and deleted all the Olympics from the TiVo. There were still a bunch (50-70 episodes) of various kids shows at that time.

When I get home tonight, my son tells me all his shows are gone. Sure enough, he's down to just one episode of one show. I look in the recently deleted folder and find only Olympics episodes that were recorded between 7/27 and 8/1. Only about 25% of the disk is used.

So, for some reason, the 10 or so Olympics episodes in recently deleted took precedence over the shows that had not been deleted and all the kids shows but one were lost.

Has anyone seen this happen? Any idea how to avoid it in the future? Now that they're gone, it doesn't really matter. I can't get them back until the Olympics are done.

Yeah, I've had it happen on an S2, with shows that hadn't even been recorded much longer than 24 hours previous, which is why I'm very, very annoyed that I can't set "Keep Until I Delete" as the recording default the way I can set the quality (it's an analog thing) as a default.

It just means more work and wasted time for me.

Your choices, I'm afraid, are either take the extra step of specifying KUID everytime you tell it to record something, or go into Recently Deleted and permanently delete everything there, one at the time, just about every day.

You could look into using TiVo Desktop and a big NT partition on a computer to copy off stuff that hasn't had the anti-copy flag set.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:40 AM   #4
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KUID won't really help now since all the shows are gone already. I thought I had found a way around setting KUID by deleting the Olympics shows quickly, but I guess I should have taken the time to set everything. With 70 shows though, that would have taken a while.

I do have kmttg set up, but most of the shows are on Disney Junior, which now has the copy protection flag set. Even some of the PBS shows are starting to have the copy protection flag set. Why a 15 year old episode of Curious George needs copy protection I will never know.

I wonder if TiVo realizes there is a bug with the way recently deleted is handled that's been around since at least S2 and remains uncorrected in the latest version of the software.
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:42 AM   #5
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PBS? OTA are supposed to have no flags set.
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #6
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Your only option to make sure that a show is kept is to set KUID! Once the deleted shows folder is empty and the suggestions are all gone it deletes anything NOT marked KUID in chronological order (oldest to newest). It might delete unviewed shows later, the color of the "dot" changes once a program is viewed, but I don't think so.
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:54 PM   #7
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Well, look. It certainly *could* be a TiVo problem, one which I have never seen before discussed in these forums or on the bug tracking logs that some users have compiled (for example see http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=487185. So, it would at least be very unusual.

However, could there be a little kid mischief going on? Its very easy to delete folders full of content by just pushing one button. Just askin'. (my kids thought it was fun once to hit thumbs up on all sorts of random stuff, took forever to undo that)
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
Well, look. It certainly *could* be a TiVo problem, one which I have never seen before discussed in these forums or on the bug tracking logs that some users have compiled (for example see http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=487185. So, it would at least be very unusual.

However, could there be a little kid mischief going on? Its very easy to delete folders full of content by just pushing one button. Just askin'. (my kids thought it was fun once to hit thumbs up on all sorts of random stuff, took forever to undo that)
But if you accidentally press Clear on a group, you get a "Are you sure" prompt. And then, even if you say Yes, the deleted shows will go into the deleted folder.

He's saying that all the shows have been permanently deleted. To blame that on the kids, they would have to have gone into the deleted folder and deleted each show, one by one.

I seriously doubt that's what happened.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:00 PM   #9
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Not true- if the kids shows were previously recorded, and the deleted folder was "full" of new Olympic deletions, the older kids shows could be dumped right away, even through they were deleted more recently. Been there. Don't forget, the tivo reserves space for upcoming shows when it empties the deleted folder, and the OPs upcoming NBC coverage is significant.

I'm not saying they were initially deleted on accident - the accident was that they could not be recovered. I'm saying its like the kid standing next to the broken lamp holding a ball saying "i didn't do it" when they knew not to play ball in the house.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:21 PM   #10
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Are the shows listed in the ToDo list history? If they are what is the reason for deletion?

Try switching to SDUI see if the shows show up there.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
Not true- if the kids shows were previously recorded, and the deleted folder was "full" of new Olympic deletions, the older kids shows could be dumped right away, even through they were deleted more recently. Been there. Don't forget, the tivo reserves space for upcoming shows when it empties the deleted folder, and the OPs upcoming NBC coverage is significant.

I'm not saying they were initially deleted on accident - the accident was that they could not be recovered. I'm saying its like the kid standing next to the broken lamp holding a ball saying "i didn't do it" when they knew not to play ball in the house.
Your description of the way things work is, to say the least, inaccurate. When a show is deleted from the NPL, it will be moved to "Recently Deleted". There is no such thing as a full "Recently Deleted". The TiVo does not automatically permanently delete shows in anticipation of the need for space, it deletes them when it actually needs the space.

Unless there is a previously undiscovered bug, the shows had to have been explicitly deleted and then the older shows would be the first to be deleted when the TiVo actually needs the space.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:11 PM   #12
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if you had a bunch of long recordings that were scheduled, like for the Olympics, it might delete a big chunk of shows because it needs the space.

In my use though I rarely use KUID, but I will typically just extend the "Keep Until" date for something I want to keep around a while. Since once a show is past the "Keep Until" date, it's fair game for deletion. And having some long recordings scheduled over the next few days is a good way to get those shows deleted. If those scheduled future recordings will push the box to it's storage limit.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:55 PM   #13
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Ok- I got the order of operations wrong (my mistake- put this down too quickly). Change this:

tivo reserves space for upcoming shows when it empties the deleted folder

To this:

tivo empties shows from the recently deleted folder as it reserves space for a recording.

Depending upon the coverage, some of these "shows" are 12 hours long. My understanding, based upon this, was that it was clearing out the entire capacity for a new recording at one time, instead of a show by show basis. That could be a bad assumption, but that is the behavior I have been seeing.
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:52 PM   #14
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Ok- I got the order of operations wrong (my mistake- put this down too quickly). Change this:

tivo reserves space for upcoming shows when it empties the deleted folder

To this:

tivo empties shows from the recently deleted folder as it reserves space for a recording.

Depending upon the coverage, some of these "shows" are 12 hours long. My understanding, based upon this, was that it was clearing out the entire capacity for a new recording at one time, instead of a show by show basis. That could be a bad assumption, but that is the behavior I have been seeing.
I don't really understand what you are saying. As far as the TiVo is concerned, a "recording" and a "show" are synonymous. When it is going to start recording a show, I think it will free up enough space to record the whole thing. I don't know how it calculates the space requirements nor what happens if it turns out it isn't enough.

It's also possible that it only frees up enough space to start the recording and will free up additional space as it needs it. This would present the possibility of running put of space in the middle of a recording if you have anything marked KUID.

Of course, when it does permanently delete something, it frees up all of the space taken up by that recording, not just sufficient space to meet it's immediate needs.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:13 PM   #15
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PBS? OTA are supposed to have no flags set.
Well, it is over cable, but it's the local PBS station which I could also get OTA.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:16 PM   #16
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Are the shows listed in the ToDo list history? If they are what is the reason for deletion?

Try switching to SDUI see if the shows show up there.
No, the ToDo list does not show any shows deleted or any reasons for any deletions.

I use the SDUI anyway because I need KidZone. If I switch to HDUI to check something out, I lose the KidZone settings, so I probably won't do that.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:22 PM   #17
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However, could there be a little kid mischief going on? Its very easy to delete folders full of content by just pushing one button. Just askin'. (my kids thought it was fun once to hit thumbs up on all sorts of random stuff, took forever to undo that)
I asked him if he deleted everything, and of course the answer was no.

However, as others have noted, he would have had to delete all the shows and then go to Recently Deleted and delete only the kids shows one by one to permanently delete them but leave all the older Olympics shows there. Highly unlikely that he would have the attention span necessary to do this.

I think something caused all the older kids shows to be deleted before the more recently recorded Olympics programming. It's not supposed to work this way, but it did.

There are a ton of shows that won't record in the ToDo list because recording as much as possible of the Olympics means nearly every other season pass for kids shows has a conflict and won't record. That's something like 7-9 shows a day that are on the won't record list. I suspect this might have something to do with the deletions, but I have no way to test that or prove it.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:04 PM   #18
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IHowever, as others have noted, he would have had to delete all the shows and then go to Recently Deleted and delete only the kids shows one by one to permanently delete them but leave all the older Olympics shows there. Highly unlikely that he would have the attention span necessary to do this.
Not necessarily true. Permanent deletion priority is probably based on the date of the recording, not the date of the removal from the NPL. Were any of the kids shows that disappeared recorded more recently than the 27th?

If it weren't for the fact that you explicitly deleted all the Olympics recordings, I would have a possible explanation. But you did, so I am completely stumped.
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Old 08-04-2012, 03:58 AM   #19
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I asked him if he deleted everything, and of course the answer was no.

However, as others have noted, he would have had to delete all the shows and then go to Recently Deleted and delete only the kids shows one by one to permanently delete them but leave all the older Olympics shows there. Highly unlikely that he would have the attention span necessary to do this.

I think something caused all the older kids shows to be deleted before the more recently recorded Olympics programming. It's not supposed to work this way, but it did.

There are a ton of shows that won't record in the ToDo list because recording as much as possible of the Olympics means nearly every other season pass for kids shows has a conflict and won't record. That's something like 7-9 shows a day that are on the won't record list. I suspect this might have something to do with the deletions, but I have no way to test that or prove it.
Since I've had an S2 DT leave one or two dozen shows of ages up to a month or so in Recently Deleted and overwrite shows that had only been recorded 24 to 72 hours prior, before I'd had a chance to get back to them and set a save date and/or copy to computer where I was saving the rest of that season's episodes, and here it is now with S4s still pulling the same 5H1T, I'd say perhaps it is supposed to work that way, as in, was intentionally designed to do that.

Which is not the same as me saying it ought to be that way. I think of it more like a stab in the back.

No way to easily see how much space is left, and how much of that is reserved, no way to make KUID the default any and every time you record, no warning "If you record X, you'll overwrite Y".


I know it's an appliance and they have to idiot proof it as best they can so they don't have to hire half the country to play CSR phone jockey for the other half, but it sure would be nice to maybe have an advanced user back door or something, to increase the ways in which my units work the way I want them to instead of having it decided for me.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:21 AM   #20
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On the bright side, you can now change your kids SP recordings to KUID as the default so all new recordings will be safe.
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:40 PM   #21
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Question Recently Deleted Folder, Doesn't Save, Plenty Space

The recently deleted folder does NOT save shows that have been deleted, instead they are there for about 1 hour and then gone.

We have a Tivo Premiere and it says that we are only using 14% of the memory so it isn't as if the DVR is full.


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Old 03-12-2013, 08:57 PM   #22
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Do you record suggestions? I did, and always had deleted shows disapear after about 2 hours on both premires. With 90% of disk space unused.

I've since stopped recording suggestions, and my deleted shows never go away... I just looked at both of mine, and I have over 150 shows in each.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:45 AM   #23
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I don't have Suggestions enabled and I've never had a problem with shows prematurely disappearing from the deleted folder...
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