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Old 03-19-2015, 12:49 PM   #2701
nooneuknow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post
This HAMR business is all very disturbing. The manufacturers are taking a technology that should last until the bearings wear out and adding a new design feature (apparently some type of heating element) that will fail prematurely due to a parameter (TB written) that wasn't a wear factor before. It sounds like a colossal design blunder that will haunt us all in the not-too-distant future. Is this their devious, backhanded way of phasing out rotating disk drives? Give those the same Achilles heel (write limitations) as solid-state drives so we'll all just go ahead and switch? Obviously I'll have to consider HAMR and TB/year ratings now when shopping for drives.
Opinionated rant inside:
Spoiler:
Yeah, I hear ya. But, I'll take HAMR over SMR any day. Shingled magnetic recording actually DOES create the same problems as SSDs have, in that the write heads being wider than the read heads (nothing "new" on its own), combined with taking out margins between tracks, leads to partial overwriting of neighboring tracks (thus the name "shingled"), requiring garbage collection and rewriting of data that was not part of the write operation just performed... IIRC, SMR was Seagate's half-assed way to get 6TB into a drive of the same form factor WD used HAMR for. Check Anandtech for the facts on that...

If they'd stick to only using these new ways in the largest capacities, I'd just be happy buying smaller drives. But, that hasn't been how hard drive history has been going. The new ways tend to trickle down to anything they can use it in, if it results in lower production costs, as a whole...

Suddenly, all that talk about helium-filled drives, allowing for closer head to platter distance, sounds like a winner (once they can be sure the helium never escapes via any means, and stays at a constant pressure).

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Old 03-19-2015, 01:14 PM   #2702
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Yeah, I hear ya. But, I'll take HAMR over SMR any day. Shingled magnetic recording actually DOES create the same problems as SSDs have, in that the write heads being wider than the read heads (nothing "new" on its own), combined with taking out margins between tracks, leads to partial overwriting of neighboring tracks (thus the name "shingled"), requiring garbage collection and rewriting of data that was not part of the write operation just performed... IIRC, SMR was Seagate's half-assed way to get 6TB into a drive of the same form factor WD used HAMR for. Check Anandtech for the facts on that...

If they'd stick to only using these new ways in the largest capacities, I'd just be happy buying smaller drives. But, that hasn't been how hard drive history has been going. The new ways tend to trickle down to anything they can use it in, if it results in lower production costs, as a whole...

Suddenly, all that talk about helium-filled drives, allowing for closer head to platter distance, sounds like a winner (once they can be sure the helium never escapes via any means, and stays at a constant pressure).
Oh come on, man, if we have to put a spoiler alert on every opinionated rant, people won't even recognize this as a forum. I didn't know how SMR works, but it doesn't sound good. And I suspect the new technologies will trickle down onto anything where they can save money. Helium-filled drives do sound interesting, and if manufacturers can make them leak at just the right rate, they'll have yet another mechanism for planned obsolescence.

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Old 03-19-2015, 03:40 PM   #2703
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I have an educated suspicion that the HAMR technology is being used in any WD drive that has any mention of TB/yr workload as an official "rating".

It likely started with 6TB drives, as a necessity, then silently started getting used in other drives which don't require it, but can be reduced in mfg costs, by using fewer platters and heads, by using it. WD isn't known for changing drive model numbers, or part numbers, when they do things like this. The way the WD Red has kept the EFRX model designation, while climbing to NASware 3.0, is proof of this. When WD does make claims of "improvements" or selling points, they tend to lie, and say it's only found in the most profitable, newest, capacities and drive lines. An example of this is how they market the spindle motor being anchored at both ends, on only their most expensive, and newest, drives. I have ancient drives that have both ends anchored, before they even started using that as a selling point (and newer drives that are supposedly not double anchored, per WD's spec sheets, but they are).

I'd say it's likely safe to assume the WD Purple is using HAMR. The WD Red line might have started using it with some drives, at some point. But, since WD doesn't declare an "official" TB/yr workload rating for the Reds, it's hard to guess what's what. I'd expect they have to use HAMR on the 6TB Reds, or they wouldn't have 6TB Reds to sell. What that means for the lower capacities, I can only guess that HAMR will trickle down to them, if it hasn't already started, perhaps at the time they refreshed the lineup, to NASware 3.0 and introduced the Red NAS Pro line. But, if they shifted to TB/yr workload rating for regular Reds, just think how that would play out for those running a mix of various revisions of the Reds, if WD put it out there that a mix of supposedly interchangeable and intermixable drives, are held to different standards for workload...

Like I've said before, the hard drive companies love to feed the media and review sites, with all the details of their new tech. Yet, they don't seem so willing to tell the consumers that the drives they are currently selling are using that bleeding-edge tech (in the cases when that is the case). Most just want bigger drives, and don't care how it gets done, yet will get vocal when their bleeding-edge drives don't work, or fail prematurely. I always stay at least one capacity behind the mainstream max capacity out there, for the reasons I've laid out about lack of transparency, and not wanting to be part of a public field trial, as everything is turning into these days, if you want the newest, biggest, and allegedly "the best" things out there...

I love this thread, and the stuff we get into (when no fighting is involved). But, I really have to police how much time I spend here now, like my sig says. At some point, I'll probably create a proper thread, in the proper area, and spill some details, as I need all the help (advice) I can get with some matters.
I can see a spec of X_Tb for the life of the drive, but I don't understand the yearly part, why is the time important, If you used a drive with a spec. of 60Tb/year for say 5 years, that a total of 300Tb, so if your drive was writing 1Tb per day the drive would die in a year ??

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Old 03-19-2015, 04:24 PM   #2704
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I can see a spec of X_Tb for the life of the drive, but I don't understand the yearly part, why is the time important, If you used a drive with a spec. of 60Tb/year for say 5 years, that a total of 300Tb, so if your drive was writing 1Tb per day the drive would die in a year ??
If you write more than the allowed terabytes per year, the driver manufacturer could claim that you voided the warranty. If you write only within the approved limits, they would expect the drive to fail only after the warranty has expired. Planned obsolescence has to be carefully planned.

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Old 03-19-2015, 06:11 PM   #2705
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Planned obsolescence has to be carefully planned.

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Old 03-19-2015, 08:17 PM   #2706
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If you write more than the allowed terabytes per year, the driver manufacturer could claim that you voided the warranty. If you write only within the approved limits, they would expect the drive to fail only after the warranty has expired. Planned obsolescence has to be carefully planned.
How would they know how much you used the drive, time on yes, but data written, never saw that parameter before.

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Old 03-19-2015, 08:43 PM   #2707
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How would they know how much you used the drive, time on yes, but data written, never saw that parameter before.
S.M.A.R.T. attribute 241.

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Old 03-20-2015, 09:10 AM   #2708
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I can see a spec of X_Tb for the life of the drive, but I don't understand the yearly part, why is the time important, If you used a drive with a spec. of 60Tb/year for say 5 years, that a total of 300Tb, so if your drive was writing 1Tb per day the drive would die in a year ??
It's to differentiate themselves from SSDs, which do have a total number of bytes. Every SSD will eventually die, and there's a known failure mechanism which causes it.

In theory, you can't say the same thing about traditional hard drives. Any one hard drive might go on forever. Of course, the technologies are so new that nobody knows if there's a failure mechanism that would limit the read or write cycles. But it's not a known failure mechanism, so it's OK.

It should be read as, given a workload of 60 Tb/yr or less, the expected reliability is at least x (whatever x is). You can exceed the workload rating, it's just that you should expect the reliability to be less than x. There's a workload vs. expected reliability graph, but it'll never get published. Not that it matters, since expected reliability is always different than actual reliability.

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Old 03-20-2015, 08:25 PM   #2709
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We need a downvote button in addition to the upvote button.

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Old 03-20-2015, 09:31 PM   #2710
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(As Saint Taylor Swift recently admonished, "Shake it off." )

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Old 03-20-2015, 09:56 PM   #2711
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A six paragraph reply to tell me you don't like my post is exactly why I wrote my post.

People who need to know what kind of hard drive to stick in their TiVo don't need a dissertation on the merits of hard drive manufacturing techniques.

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Old 03-21-2015, 02:59 PM   #2712
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A six paragraph reply to tell me you don't like my post is exactly why I wrote my post.

People who need to know what kind of hard drive to stick in their TiVo don't need a dissertation on the merits of hard drive manufacturing techniques.
Eh, I for one find the information interesting. I tend to not take anyone's word for anything without information to back it up. Anyone on the internet can spew any dribble they want. When they have the information to backup their claims it means a whole lot more.

I have nothing against either one of you, but seriously Arcady, if you don't want to read it, then don't. Otherwise, I would kindly ask you to pad your post count with something valuable, and I've had enough of this childish ******** that has been brought into this thread.

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Old 03-21-2015, 04:06 PM   #2713
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Ever heard of the ignore function? It works well, and I recommend it to anyone that does not want to see another poster's stuff.

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Old 03-21-2015, 04:13 PM   #2714
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I swore to myself that if I saw anything resembling "shut up and go away", things looked to be turning ugly, or the trolls came in, I'd make good on my earlier declaration/announcement, as I do have more pressing concerns, like the unspecified reasons for my vague sig.
As someone who wrote to you that way, and thought better of it shortly after (I wrote the comment about sending you a Simpsons box set a month ago), I do want to offer you an overdue apology. I hope OnePass (in that particular case) is working better for you than you anticipated, and I respect your contributions to this forum. I wish you luck with whatever you're going through.

I can't comment on the particulars of the debate here, just expressing regret for my own tone. A feature on a device that records TV programs isn't worth disrespecting strangers about.

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Old 03-21-2015, 11:29 PM   #2715
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Ever heard of the ignore function? It works well, and I recommend it to anyone that does not want to see another poster's stuff.

Sure have. Arcady has some great information in most cases.

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Old 03-23-2015, 03:18 PM   #2716
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This thread is far less useful than the Tivo HD and Premiere one(s) I used years ago to upgrade my hard drives in those. Too much chit chat at the start.

It would be nice to have a single authoritative thread with proper instructions at the start, rather than possibly scattered somewhere deep in the thread. I looked around and couldn't find anything about hard drive choices, steps, etc.

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Old 03-23-2015, 03:29 PM   #2717
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This thread is far less useful than the Tivo HD and Premiere one(s) I used years ago to upgrade my hard drives in those. Too much chit chat at the start.

It would be nice to have a single authoritative thread with proper instructions at the start, rather than possibly scatter somewhere deep in the thread. I looked around and couldn't find anything about hard drive choices, steps, etc.
Really simple to do. Only 3 steps:

1) Buy this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DXFEQGI/
2) Follow post #1 in this thread
3) Plug in and power on.

The TiVo Roamio does the rest.

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Old 03-23-2015, 03:35 PM   #2718
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Really simple to do. Only 3 steps:

1) Buy this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DXFEQGI/
2) Follow post #1 in this thread
3) Plug in and power on. The TiVo Roamio does the rest.
The base post is followed by several that indicate that was pre-release information and may not work.

We really need a cleaned up thread.

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Old 03-23-2015, 04:06 PM   #2719
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The base post is followed by several that indicate that was pre-release information and may not work.

We really need a cleaned up thread.
It works.

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Old 03-23-2015, 08:40 PM   #2720
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There is tutorial on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMDf28vdcdM

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Old 03-24-2015, 09:55 AM   #2721
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Will this hard drive work

WD Mainstream 3TB SATA 6.0 Desktop 3.5-Inch Internal Hard Drive (WDBH2D0030HNC)
Item: 391828 Model: WDBH2D0030HNC


SHARE:
3 TB capacity internal hard drive for use in desktop computers
SATA 6.0 interface transfers data at rates up to 6 Gb/s
IntelliPower RPM delivers fast loading
See more details

I got a great deal but have not installed the drive yet. I wanted an expert opinion first.

This is the drive I have seen recommended Product Details
WD30EURX Western Digital 3TB 5400RPM SATA 6.0 Gbps 3.5 inch Hard Drive
by Western Digital

They both appear to have the same specs
Available at external website:Memory4Less
I currently have TiVo Roamio Plus HD Digital Video Recorder and Streaming Media Player (TCD848000) and four TiVo minis.

Thank you


Last edited by Masterchin; 03-24-2015 at 02:25 PM.. Reason: Adding product info
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Old 03-24-2015, 10:21 AM   #2722
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Quote:
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WD Mainstream 3TB SATA 6.0 Desktop 3.5-Inch Internal Hard Drive (WDBH2D0030HNC) Item: 391828 Model: WDBH2D0030HNC <snip>

I got a great deal but have not installed the drive yet. I wanted an expert opinion first. Thank you
For future reference, this is the WD30EZRX Green (plain Green, non-AV, 2yr warranty) model. It isn't endorsed for 24/7 operation, nor was it designed with DVR use in mind.

The simple answer is "Yes, it will work. Others are using them".

It wouldn't be my first recommendation, due a year shorter warranty, and usually not saving that many dollars, as opposed to upgrading with a WD30EURX, the same drive TiVo uses in their factory 3TB TiVos.

How long it will operate without issues, or any longevity comparisons, aren't questions that anybody can give you any definite answers to.

You didn't state which Roamio model, or how many tuners, or any other pertinent specifics that might factor in. The more tuners, the harder the drive will have to work, and the greater the TB/yr workload. The rest of the equation for longevity guesstimation is more random luck, than science.

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I'm going to put all things TCF on ice, or back-burner, for now (could wind up being for the foreseeable future).
I may still post from time to time, until it's just not possible, at all, and might not be able to follow-up/through with posts/PMs.
My time/focus needs to be elsewhere. PMs welcomed, but responses not guaranteed. In need of a miracle.
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Old 03-24-2015, 12:50 PM   #2723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterchin View Post
WD Mainstream 3TB SATA 6.0 Desktop 3.5-Inch Internal Hard Drive (WDBH2D0030HNC)
Item: 391828 Model: WDBH2D0030HNC


SHARE:
3 TB capacity internal hard drive for use in desktop computers
SATA 6.0 interface transfers data at rates up to 6 Gb/s
IntelliPower RPM delivers fast loading
See more details

I got a great deal but have not installed the drive yet. I wanted an expert opinion first.

This is the drive I have seen recommended Product Details
WD30EURX Western Digital 3TB 5400RPM SATA 6.0 Gbps 3.5 inch Hard Drive
by Western Digital

They both appear to have the same specs
Available at external website:Memory4Less


Thank you
Since, as nooneuknow points out, it's a "regular" WD Green, instead of an A/V type, you probably still need to run

wdidle3.exe

to make sure Intellipark is disabled.

Or you could use it hooked to a PC for storage and get a WD30EURX to put in the TiVo.

But no matter where you use what drive, any drive which is new (to you, so includes any used ones you might acquire) should have the drive manufacturer's own diagnostic software long test run on it before putting it into service.

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Old 03-24-2015, 12:54 PM   #2724
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It works.
Unfortunately it has not worked for me, and I can't figure out why. The WD30EURX drive worked for a few days, and then I start to have issues which I have outlined earlier in this thread. I've either bypassed or replaced every piece of equipment and still having the same issue.

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Old 03-24-2015, 12:58 PM   #2725
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Unfortunately it has not worked for me, and I can't figure out why. The WD30EURX drive worked for a few days, and then I start to have issues which I have outlined earlier in this thread. I've either bypassed or replaced every piece of equipment and still having the same issue.
So you did get a replacement Roamio and still have issues?

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Old 03-24-2015, 01:42 PM   #2726
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So you did get a replacement Roamio and still have issues?
That's correct. So now it's a real mystery. Maybe I should have just paid a few extra $ and got the Pro. But it's the exact same hardware, including the hard drive right?

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Old 03-24-2015, 01:50 PM   #2727
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That's correct. So now it's a real mystery. Maybe I should have just paid a few extra $ and got the Pro. But it's the exact same hardware, including the hard drive right?
I am new to the Roamio line. So I am not sure about the hardware differences.

Did you erase the drive before you put it in the new Roamio?

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