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Old 10-10-2012, 07:31 PM   #1
cwnelson
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I Have Moved and Need Some Advice With Transfers

Hi,

I have a TiVo Premiere and just moved and I have a new cable company that sets all non broadcast channels to 0x02 copy protection. My previous company did 0x00 except movie channels and such, which was not a problem. What I like to do is record sporting events and transfer to PC and edit commercials, back them up to external hard drive, and watch later. Now I can't always do that depending on the channel.

I am open to some sort of workaround since I have only one cable option here. Is there any video capture solution where I can perhaps record to my PC and/or play my copy protected programs on the Premiere and show my TV screen on my PC and record the image? I prefer to be able to do this in HD but I will settle for standard def or using component cables to convert an HDMI quality which I guess is the next best thing. HD takes up a lot more hard drive space anyway.

I really only want nothing more than to do what I was doing with my old company. These are programs I really can't pay to own, either, so that's why it's such a big deal to me. Plus it's a hobby.

Anybody got a suggestion? I have researched and I have found some possible solutions but I'm not clear they'll work and they're expensive enough that I'm out of some money if they don't do what I need them to do.

Help? Thanks!
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:46 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwnelson View Post
Hi,

I have a TiVo Premiere and just moved and I have a new cable company that sets all non broadcast channels to 0x02 copy protection. My previous company did 0x00 except movie channels and such, which was not a problem. What I like to do is record sporting events and transfer to PC and edit commercials, back them up to external hard drive, and watch later. Now I can't always do that depending on the channel.

I am open to some sort of workaround since I have only one cable option here. Is there any video capture solution where I can perhaps record to my PC and/or play my copy protected programs on the Premiere and show my TV screen on my PC and record the image? I prefer to be able to do this in HD but I will settle for standard def or using component cables to convert an HDMI quality which I guess is the next best thing. HD takes up a lot more hard drive space anyway.

I really only want nothing more than to do what I was doing with my old company. These are programs I really can't pay to own, either, so that's why it's such a big deal to me. Plus it's a hobby.

Anybody got a suggestion? I have researched and I have found some possible solutions but I'm not clear they'll work and they're expensive enough that I'm out of some money if they don't do what I need them to do.

Help? Thanks!
Maybe someone else will say that there is a way but I don't think there is with the CCI byte = 0x02. In my case, a few of the channels we normally record went to 0x02 at the same time that the Olympics started and have not gone back. I can stream them from one Premeire to another but can no longer transfer them to the other Tivo or the PC.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:05 AM   #3
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I guess it's just a matter of getting my tv screen to show on my computer, and then capturing it. I just don't know if it would be similar to say video game capture since we're talking about TV shows and not game footage. But I have no desire to capture video game footage so I don't have anything like that. It's fairly expensive. I just keep thinking how much easier this would be if I had another cable option or if my new cable company would stop their practices. it really renders much of the TiVo moot for me.

Here's another question. I have an old series 2 that I only use to pause live TV and not to record. Hypothetically, could I have that box reactivated and copy shows from it since it does not have a cablecard? Those same channels are all copy protected on my Premiere. In fact, many channels I get three instances of: the lower numbers, which a TV without "digital" cable receives, the middle numbers, which appear on my Premiere, but in standard def, and the high numbers, which are the HD channels. None of these channels I know of except for the broadcast channels and certain random channels that appear to be overlooked are able to be transferred.

And I apologize if asking about copy protection in this way is verboten on this forum. It just occurred to me that it might be.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:52 AM   #4
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Only the circumvention of copy protection by hacking is verboten here.
IMO what you want to do is completely acceptable.
I would think you can use the Premiere's composite output tied to a capture card on your PC, but I don't have personal experience with going to that extreme and may not work to your satisfaction.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:41 AM   #5
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Thanks for clearing that up. I have no desire to use a hack, even if there was one. Anyone know if a capture card would do the trick? Or some other device?
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:04 AM   #6
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Recording via the series 2 would allow you to transfer to your computer without a problem. You'll need to make sure your cable company still provides the more common channels you use for sports games via analog. This is commonly referred to the "analog hole" in copy protection.

Actually, if the channels are available in analog and you have a two-tuner Premiere that can handle analog, you could theoretically remove the cable card from the box so that the copy-protection is no longer applied to the channels. You'll lose every digital channel and nearly all your HD channels, but you should still be able to tune to your local broadcast channels in HD since these are mandated to be sent clear QAM.

I can tell you first-hand that a two-tuner Premiere without the CableCard will record analog and allow transfers. I had a delay in receiving my CC when I got my new Premiere and set it up on analog for the first few days. I was able to transfer the recordings done without the CC to my old Series 2 via MRV and that would also mean transfers to the computer would work as well. Since the CC install, I can only transfer broadcast station recordings since Time Warner Cable loves copy protection.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:26 AM   #7
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Now that you mention just capturing your TV screen, does your TV have component outputs? Many LCD ones do. If it does, then there are inexpensive cables you can buy that take composite video/audio input and route it to your computer via USB. I bought one of those a couple of years ago before I got any Tivos so that I could capture some old VCR recordings. Now I just hook a VCR to an S2 Tivo to save my tapes.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:21 PM   #8
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Ok, in the past I did take the CC out of the Premiere and only got broadcast channels in SD or HD. I can try again later today. What I don't understand is that my Series 2 gets all the "analog" channels and obviously uses no CC. That's why I was so surprised when I recorded something on these lower channels (I think I mentioned above that I receive the same SD channels as part of the "digital" package only in higher numbers. But I experimented with recording both the lower channel SD and the higher channel SD by recording the same show at the same time and both are copy protected. I don't understand then why these lower channels won't appear when I remove the CC and my series 2 shows all the standard cable channels, since it doesn't require a box.

Also I did check and my LCD does not have a component out, only analog and digital audio. It does have a USB port, if there is a device I could use for that and just take the TiVo out of the equation. I do however have a Tube TV that has a standard AV out. I suppose I could hook the premiere up to that TV and use screen capture to get programs off of that. Right now I have no HD programs I want to transfer. If they are on cable channels I just watch them in HD and record them in SD.

After I got the Premiere and the Series 2 expired, I was offered a lifetime subscription on the S2 for $100. I wonder if they'd do that still...It's too old for me to consider an extra $10 a month; I'd rather find another way.

Thanks for the help; if you have any more suggestions I'd appreciate it!
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:29 PM   #9
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I may be totally wrong, but I think that the Tivos that use cable cards won't see the *analog* channels even if you remove the cable card…. Unless you rerun guided setup to tell them you don't have a CC anymore.

(I was setting up a Premiere 4 last night and had a weird issue that I may tell in a different thread.. Basically, the CC wasn't seeing any channels, but I confirmed that the *tuner* worked by pulling the CC and doing a channel scan. Not directly related since it doesn't involve analog.. Well, sort of it does, since I was unable to tune the analog channels, which now just say basically "you need digital equipment".. That started on Tuesday, and was the impetus for me getting a Premiere 4 NOW.)
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:47 AM   #10
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Quote:
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I just keep thinking how much easier this would be if I had another cable option or if my new cable company would stop their practices. it really renders much of the TiVo moot for me.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by cwnelson View Post
Here's another question. I have an old series 2 that I only use to pause live TV and not to record. Hypothetically, could I have that box reactivated and copy shows from it since it does not have a cablecard?
Yes.

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Those same channels are all copy protected on my Premiere.
That is a major reason I do not recommend purchasing a Premiere.

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And I apologize if asking about copy protection in this way is verboten on this forum. It just occurred to me that it might be.
Asking about it certainly is not. Discussing some of the solutions, especially in detail, is discouraged and better left for the "other" TiVo forum.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:50 AM   #11
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I would think you can use the Premiere's composite output tied to a capture card on your PC, but I don't have personal experience with going to that extreme and may not work to your satisfaction.
'Problematical. Macrovision is implemented on the composite output.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:53 AM   #12
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I may be totally wrong, but I think that the Tivos that use cable cards won't see the *analog* channels even if you remove the cable card…. Unless you rerun guided setup to tell them you don't have a CC anymore.
You are not totally wrong, but partly. If the CATV system does not broadcast the analog channels on digital streams, as well (most do), then it will be picked up analog no matter what. If it is broadcast digitally, the CableCard will map the digital channel and not the analog one.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:55 AM   #13
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Thanks for clearing that up. I have no desire to use a hack, even if there was one.
Why not? There isn't any for the Premiere, but there certainly are for S3 units.

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Anyone know if a capture card would do the trick? Or some other device?
Not legally, no. Note that hacking a TiVo is perfectly legal, but defeating Macrovision is not.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:06 PM   #14
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Thanks for all the input. So, lrhorer, if I understand you right, just asking about trying to get around copy protection for what I'm trying to do is not kosher? I have been to a few stores and asked them there and they seem to think what I want to do (i.e. not distribute but extract, edit, and store) is completely reasonable.

These same guys seem to think that using a pass-through device might work, i.e. one that records video games on the PC without having to use the PC as the TV screen. But it seems from what I'm reading here that Macrovision won't allow that. Is this correct?

The only other solution I can think of is that there might be such a thing as an external video output I can attach to my TV. I have never seen anything like that but I have never really looked.

Lastly, I would be completely willing to lose the Premiere for now in favor of the DirecTV with Tivo, IF I could do transfers. Last I heard, DirecTV would not allow transfers. Is this still true?

And as for hacking, lrhorer, I currently do not have a hackable device anyway, and if I did, I'd feel too far out of my league to do it. So that's why.

Last edited by cwnelson : 10-12-2012 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:21 PM   #15
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Thanks for all the input. So, lrhorer, if I understand you right, just asking about trying to get around copy protection for what I'm trying to do is not kosher?
No, like we said, asking about it is perfectly fine. Going into details in this section is frowned upon.

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I have been to a few stores and asked them there and they seem to think what I want to do (i.e. not distribute but extract, edit, and store) is completely reasonable.
It is completely reasonable, if you ask me. If you ask the MPAA, you are worse than a murderer if you don't pay ten times every day for every movie you ever have and ever will watch.

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These same guys seem to think that using a pass-through device might work, i.e. one that records video games on the PC without having to use the PC as the TV screen. But it seems from what I'm reading here that Macrovision won't allow that. Is this correct?
All sorts of things might work. I am merely telling you it is against federal law to defeat Macrovision protection. I am unsure of what sort of device you are speaking.

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The only other solution I can think of is that there might be such a thing as an external video output I can attach to my TV. I have never seen anything like that but I have never really looked.
Again, I am afraid I have no notion of what you speak.

All I can tell you is:

1. S1 and S2 TiVos have no capability to observe CCI byte protection, and so can digitally transfer any content they can record to an external device. In the case of an S2 TiVo, the content can be transferred directly to any S2, S3, or S4 TiVo, as long as the two TiVos are on the same TiVo account and the same LAN. S1 TiVos outfitted with a TurboNet card or CacheCard can transfer shows to a PC.

2. Modified S3 TiVos can be made capable or transferring shows to either an external PC or to another S2, S3, or S4 Tivo, irrespective of the value of the CCI byte. If the content is HD, it cannot be transferred to an S2, because of the limitations of the S2.

3. S4 TiVos cannot transfer any content whose CCI byte is set. They can stream the content to another S4.

4. The composite outputs of the S3 and S4 TiVos are Macrovision saddled. It is illegal to manufacture any device designed to defeat this mechanism, and illegal for a user to employ any device to do so, regardless of the design intent of the device. I am not saying it is impossible, just illegal.

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Lastly, I would be completely willing to lose the Premiere for now in favor of the DirecTV with Tivo, IF I could do transfers. Last I heard, DirecTV would not allow transfers. Is this still true?
It depends on the device. S1 and S2 DirecTiVos can if modified. I don't have any personal experience with any other DTV devices, but I think you may be correct.

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And as for hacking, lrhorer, I currently do not have a hackable device anyway
They are not terribly expensive, these days.

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and if I did, I'd feel too far out of my league to do it. So that's why.
It's not really that difficult. I walked a member of this forum through the software upgrade in about two hours on the phone. The hardware can be modified for a fee by others.

It is, of course, entirely your choice.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:21 PM   #16
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You are not totally wrong, but partly. If the CATV system does not broadcast the analog channels on digital streams, as well (most do), then it will be picked up analog no matter what. If it is broadcast digitally, the CableCard will map the digital channel and not the analog one.
But even after you remove the cable card, you won't see the analog channel, right? Premiere 4 doesn't have analog tuners, so that experience isn't really relevant, but I sure thought that my S3 or TivoHD wouldn't see analog after having set it up with cablecards… even if the cable cards weren't currently plugged in.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:06 AM   #17
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mattack, that's right. If I remove the cablecard, all the so-called analog channels except for the broadcast channels are not visible. At least, the ones I would record on.

lrhorer, sorry for not being clear. In terms of a pass-through device, I mean something like the Haupage PVR which uses component (?) cables or even the gaming edition which uses HDMI cables as a pass through for those who want to record their live gameplay. I'm reasoning that such a device could theoretically do what I want, but that seems too easy a solution and video capture may not work. i may just have to get one and see but they run about $200.

The other theoretical device would take the place of a built-in component output on my TV. Someone above asked me if I had a video output on my TV but I don't, because then I would not have to bring the TiVo into it except to play already recorded stuff. I was wondering if there is such a think as an external TV video output. I don't know that there is.

I called Tivo today and they said the former offer of $100 for a lifetime service on my S2 has long since expired. So I'll have to decide whether it's worth $10 extra per month.

One other clarification, lhorer. It may not really matter in the end, but I really am not interested in copying movies, really. I'm not trying to circumvent premium or movie channels. Mainly what I transfer are sporting events that I can't buy anywhere. Depending on the game I want, I record, transfer, edit out commercials, make a backup copy to an external hard drive, and watch them later. Since this is what I was able to do with my last two cable companies, I don't see the issue with trying to continue to do that, especially since what I record typically can't be purchased afterwards. I have no desire to redistribute or profit from this. That may not matter in terms of Macrovision, but the MPAA doesn't figure in to this particular case.

I may just have to reactivate my S2 and transfer from there, and in the case of stuff that's already on the box, I may just have to resort to primitive means to save those before I delete them.

However, getting a S3 seems intriguing to me. It seems like a lot of expense to go through just because my cable company doesn't care about its customers, but I may entertain that thought.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:44 AM   #18
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An update: I have solved somewhat satisfactorily my future recording woes. I talked to TiVo about whether my Series2 would not flag for copy protection and one tech said it would still be copy protected and another said it would not. I also inquired about whether I could take them up on their previous offer to give the S2 a lifetime subscription for $99. The first account person told me that had expired long ago; I later spoke to another account specialist and after explaining to him that I wanted to stick it to my cable company by not only not ditching TiVo but investing more in them just to get around their stupid policies, he pretty quickly offered me the deal, with a 30-day money back guarantee since it was considered an activation and too long ago to be a reactivation. I jumped on this quickly, knowing that if I could not transfer, I could still decide not to do the lifetime service. With virtually zero risk, it was easy.

Unfortunately, the S2 does not work with my current router and I do not yet have a Tivo Wireless G adapter; they did not even exist when I got my S2. I did have an old router that I temporarily set up and I still have my old network adapter. I had some IP Address conflicts and a few other issues, but all of a sudden I got a signal. I recorded a few minutes of a show on one of the same cable channels I like to record. No copy protection detected, as I thought. This solves my problem for the immediate future, though even at best quality the image is not nearly as good as the SD on my Premiere...but it's the best I can do for the moment. The transfer speeds are slow but I can live with that. Just need to get that Wireless-G adapter.

I think I know how to make archived copies of some of these (basic) cable shows onto storage but it's somewhat expensive; it requires a capture card r external equivalent and a stabilizer which from what I understand is not illegal depending on what you use it for. For now my shows will remain on the Premiere, and I'll start recording the ones I want to keep on the S2.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me here.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:18 AM   #19
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if you are only talking SD, just burn it to disc from a standalone DVD burner. Then you can take that to the PC and edit the program. I t worked for me eight years ago so I would think it would still work now.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:38 AM   #20
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Unfortunately I don't have one. But even some SD recordings are flagged so I have my doubts as to whether that would work. However, I'll bet I could borrow one and at least try it.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:22 PM   #21
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It may have been another thread here, but isn't copy protecting every channel not allowed by FCC? I thought the non-premium channels were supposed to be transferable?
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:53 PM   #22
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Actually, the individual cable company has the right to copy protect every channel that is not also available over the air (i.e. ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS, etc.). And my cable company sets its CCI Byte at 0X02 for every channel it has a legal right to, even standard def. and so-called "analog" channels, which means you are allowed one copy, meaning the one you have on the tivo. My former company set the CCI Byte at 0X00 for all channels except certain HD movie channels and premium channels, which is probably mandated by those particular stations or the MPAA for the individual programs. Since the S2 has no cablecard to flag programs, I can now record and transfer, though the quality s significantly less and the transfers slow. The only thing is that there are some digital channels I do not receive on standard cable. Still trying to hash out other options.
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