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Old Yesterday, 02:00 PM   #2161
nooneuknow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L David Matheny View Post
I think AV-GP drives spin up more gradually than most drives to avoid drawing enough startup current to pull the 12v supply down, which can trigger a reboot.
I'll give a gold star, and a free copy of free software, to the first person to count how many times I have brought up the fact that WD "intellipower" drives (and other drives I recommend for use in TiVo) spin up in stages, taking more time, in order to use the least amount of current, and how critical this is for most TiVos, especially the Roamio Base/OTA.

I know that most TiVos will spend most of their installed lifetimes with the hard drive spinning, and have very few cold power-cycles (warm reboots don't count). But, as electronics and (especially) hard drives age, power consumption, and start-up requirements tend to get higher. This could mean that if you only power-cycle once a year, you just may lose the ability to boot, after year two or three, if you started out just barely on the right side of the line between enough power to cold-boot, and not enough.

Realistically, doing a full cold-boot, rather than a warm reboot, is part of most diagnostic procedures (the good ones, anyway).

I keep all my Tivos, and all supporting hardware (other than the TVs), on UPS's w/AVR. My line voltage tends to be at ~125V (per leg), tends to not vary, and power outages are typically limited to cars hitting poles or transformers.

I recall living in the midwest, and the utility voltage being ~110V (per leg), often finding one leg would be as low as 90V (or less), making for some hellish troubleshooting. In my time there, I had three instances of residential transformers getting replaced, due to my insistence that the issue be fixed, and two business-serving transformers, as well.

It may be safe to assume that somebody plugging a stock base model wart into an outlet with = or < 110VAC will have more pronounced issues than those getting = or > 120VAC.

I do have an AV receiver somewhere, that has a switch on the back for 110V, 115V, 120V, and a few others (but not 220-250V). When I moved, not changing that switch created an amplified humming on the outputs. Do modern AV receivers still have such switches, or do they auto-sense? If both types still exist (manual and auto-set), which type is found on "high-end" ones?
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old Yesterday, 04:12 PM   #2162
nooneuknow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
Both the Red and the regular Green have lower power consumption.
Yes, as I've peppered recent posts with, buying a WD drive that has "intellipower" gets you the low-current, staged, longer time-to-ready, spin-up.

WD Green*, Caviar Green*, AV-GP, Red NAS, and Purple, all have it.

*There may be some really old models of Green and Caviar Green, that came out before "intellipower" became the "norm".

As also mentioned in a prior post, WD enterprises-class drives can be set to the spin-up needs of the enterprise system, allowing one drive to work in multiple systems and/or configurations, for multiple purposes.

For consumer, CE/OEM, and SMB markets, one way around having a long time-to-ready, is "Idle Mode 3", where the drive parks the heads, but the platters stay spinning. It doesn't affect the spin-up current/time, but saves electricity by taking away the drag of the heads and actuator arms being above and below the platters. Those of us who owned TiVos before Roamios, and upgraded with WD non-AV plain-green drives, had to disable (or increase the timer value for) this function, with wdidle3.exe, or the older TiVos would hang on a warm boot, when the 8 second timer default would park the heads, but the TiVo couldn't/wouldn't make the drive unpark them (or some compatibility issue made it impossible).

The WD Purple is targeted at motion activated camera systems, and is designed around spending a lot of time in Idle-3, but being very quick to write every frame received, on any/every camera that becomes active.

WD tweaked the firmware of the Purple, so much, I think that weighs in heavily on the 60TB/yr per drive workload rating. I think they had to sacrifice something to get the fastest time-to-ready, from Idle-3.

Unless you have a motion-activated camera system, I fail to see any point in spending roughly the same amount of money on a Purple, when the Red NAS has a 120-150TB/yr per drive workload rating. Bought in bulk, the Purple is cheaper, which likely explains why WK is using them for at least some of their upgrade solutions.

There is one missing link in all of this (especially when tuner counts are 4, or more), and making comparisons. The TB/yr workload rating of the AV-GP is unpublished and unstated, not even having an "unofficial" rating out there.

Throw in that when WD and Seagate start talking about AV "streams", they are speaking of their proprietary enhancements to the base ATA Streaming Feature, which TiVo chooses not to use, and never has, instead writing the AV data as standard data, without any special enhancements applied, and subject to the same error correction as any old data, comparing apples to apples, gets difficult.

My spiel used to end there. Now, I know that WD's Red & Purple, and Seagate's AV+NAS drives support TLER/ERC, which is enabled, by default, and can only be disabled using a SCT ERC script, as the setting is lost at power-off, and restored to 7 seconds, at power-on.

I had better cut it off here, and get back to work on the TLER/ERC project.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old Yesterday, 04:30 PM   #2163
lpwcomp
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nooneuknow,

What I was saying, which should have been obvious based on what I quoted, was that both the Red and the regular Green have lower power consumption than the same size AV-GP drive..
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Old Yesterday, 04:41 PM   #2164
nooneuknow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
nooneuknow,

What I was saying, which should have been obvious based on what I quoted, was that both the Red and the regular Green have lower power consumption than the same size AV-GP drive..
What if they are measuring that based on the drive spending even part of the time with the heads parked (Idle-3)?

The drive mfg tend to either spec it out per mode, or they just publish a spec, based on how they assume a drive will be used, typically as the marketing lays it out.

I don't think WD ever expected anybody to run a regular Green 24/7/365, without ever parking the heads. Why would they publish specs for 24/7/365, with no Idle-3 time, then? I'll spare the list of other things they consider "normal" or "average" in their synthetic definitions of things.

As for the Red, yes, I've always found it interesting that it seems to have the best of all worlds, in a 5400RPM drive.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM   #2165
lpwcomp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
What if they are measuring that based on the drive spending even part of the time with the heads parked (Idle-3)?
There are separate values for Read/Write, Idle, and Standby/Sleep.
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Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM   #2166
danm628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
I do have an AV receiver somewhere, that has a switch on the back for 110V, 115V, 120V, and a few others (but not 220-250V). When I moved, not changing that switch created an amplified humming on the outputs. Do modern AV receivers still have such switches, or do they auto-sense? If both types still exist (manual and auto-set), which type is found on "high-end" ones?
I've started hunting for a new AV receiver to replace my 15 year old one (among other issues it has no HDMI). It seems the majority of AV receivers have moved to Class-D (PWM) amplifiers and switching power supplies. Most switching supplies will work with a wide range of input voltages and frequencies.

Having said that the couple of higher end receivers I'm looking at list power as 120 V at 60 Hz. I'm not sure if that is simply keeping the manual short for the US or if the the power supply voltages and frequencies are limited.

Either way there is no switch to set power supply voltage on the receivers I've looked at so far.

- Dan
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Old Today, 09:07 AM   #2167
slowbiscuit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill View Post
The 3TB WD AV-GP consumes slightly less power than the 1TB model.

Again, the lesson is don't cheap out - buy the WD AV-GP model, not any random drive for your Tivo upgrade.
Or just buy a cheaper and same power use WD Green and save a few bucks. It will last just as long.

There is no proof that an AV-GP drive is any better than a Green in a Tivo, nor is there any proof favoring the Green. None.
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Old Today, 10:36 AM   #2168
lessd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
Or just buy a cheaper and same power use WD Green and save a few bucks. It will last just as long.

There is no proof that an AV-GP drive is any better than a Green in a Tivo, nor is there any proof favoring the Green. None.
+1
I know of no test that can give you the meantime to failure of any Hard drive, unless you purchased say 1000 drives each of each model hard drive and ran them over the next 8 to 10 years, then you would have your answer, but 8 or so years from now. Hard drives change all the time, firmware upgrades internal hardware changes, the same model can be different 6 months after your purchase, for better or worse. In general hard drives have gotten better, and I know of no model hard drives that constantly fails quickly in TiVo use. My upgraded Series 1 two hard drives lasted over 6 years and the drives were made in 2001.
People looking for a definite answer as to what hard drive to use in a TiVo will not find that answer. The best one can do is use a drive with low power and low heat, 5400rmo to 5900rpm drives should meet this requirement, one should not use say a 15000 rpm drive or a SSD for TiVo use.
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