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Old 01-29-2014, 03:13 AM   #1
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On demand with Roamio

Does the new Roamio support 2 way communications with the cable card so that on demand and PPV can be used with the cable company ?

On TiVo's site they list on demand as a feature, but what do they qualify as such as they link that I think to comcast cc info?

Would this depend on the cable provider for support off of such? I my case it Mediacom who is currently deploying re-branded TiVo Roamio boxes with Mini's look multiroom viewing which have on demand and PPV buying capabilities so I know it technically possible but I'm not sure how my cable company has changed the original TiVo to accomplish such but they do claim theirs will not function with regular TiVo s for example MRV so if that's true there's no telling what else they changed to make (I'm not sure if they know a lot about normal TiVo's so I'm not taking their word for it).

So are there any Roamio owners out there that can comment on being able to do on demand and PPV content when they haven't been able to do such on older TiVo boxes?
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:53 AM   #2
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TiVos on demand support is mainly through Comcast Xfinity. CableCARD is only one way. Comcast Xfinity works by using special VOD servers that allow the TiVo app to communicate with the via the internet, then redirecting one of the tuners to the proper VOD frequency. They also announced similar deals with Cox and Charter years ago, but I think both deals fell through. I'm not sure what they have available on the smaller providers. However even if it is available via the TiVos offered by your provider that does not guarantee it's available on retail units.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:42 AM   #3
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works fine

We use Xfinity VOD on our Roamio frequently.

Our provider is Comcast in Berkeley, CA.

Works without a glitch, but in honesty, I see higher quality video, per say, from Amazon.

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Old 01-29-2014, 02:48 PM   #4
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So is the listed "on demand" feature shown in the Roamio specs different than the older TiVo's which never listed that as a feature with cable cards? , for example the series 4 and older models with cable cards slots simply state is required to receive digital channels. I'm fairly sure I going to upgrade to the Roamio with Mediacom so I guess I will find out but I'm not holding my breath.

Technically there should be no reason why even the older cable cards capable TiVo's should be able to have two way communications to the cable cards but rather just cable companies not wanting to embrace the full capabilities of the cards which only cuts down on their income as for example the last 6 years I have never ordered a Mediacom PPV or purchased any additional on demand content.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:07 PM   #5
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So is the listed "on demand" feature shown in the Roamio specs different than the older TiVo's which never listed that as a feature with cable cards?
Any mention of On Demand support on the Roamio should be followed with an asterisk or other note indicating "In select markets" On Demand is only available in select Comcast markets.

I'd be interested in where you've seen mention of On Demand support on the Roamio without also noticing and asterisk or "In selected markets" caveat.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:19 PM   #6
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I think the issue with On-Demand support is data, or the lack thereof. TiVo gets its guide data from a third party, not your local cable company. That publicly available data does not include On-Demand. To support On-Demand requires the co-operation of the cable provider to supply TiVo with the specific titles available, the method of requesting it, and the determination of the "channel" to tune to. In other words, the provider has to feed the available list to TiVo, TiVo formats and displays it to the user, who selects, let's say, the latest episode of "Community". Then that request has to be sent to the provider, who then sends back the specific channel that will be used to deliver the program to the DVR. For providers (like Verizon) who already use internet based communications with their STB's, it would be a relatively simple technological step for TiVo to provide On-Demand access. For others that use a reverse channel on the coax it gets a bit more complicated.

Regardless of the technical issues, the real stumbling block is that the cable companies would rather rent you a DVR for $19 every month than do the work to allow TiVo to offer On-Demand.
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Old 01-29-2014, 07:40 PM   #7
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Any mention of On Demand support on the Roamio should be followed with an asterisk or other note indicating "In select markets" On Demand is only available in select Comcast markets.
Doesn't RCN do VOD for TiVos? Or is that only for RCN-branded TiVos, not general retail TiVos?
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:34 PM   #8
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I think the issue with On-Demand support is data, or the lack thereof. TiVo gets its guide data from a third party, not your local cable company. That publicly available data does not include On-Demand. To support On-Demand requires the co-operation of the cable provider to supply TiVo with the specific titles available, the method of requesting it, and the determination of the "channel" to tune to. In other words, the provider has to feed the available list to TiVo, TiVo formats and displays it to the user, who selects, let's say, the latest episode of "Community". Then that request has to be sent to the provider, who then sends back the specific channel that will be used to deliver the program to the DVR. For providers (like Verizon) who already use internet based communications with their STB's, it would be a relatively simple technological step for TiVo to provide On-Demand access. For others that use a reverse channel on the coax it gets a bit more complicated.

Regardless of the technical issues, the real stumbling block is that the cable companies would rather rent you a DVR for $19 every month than do the work to allow TiVo to offer On-Demand.
The problem is that the CableCARD standard was written back in the mid 90s when most people were still watching live TV directly on a television and all they thought was needed was a way to tune encrypted digital channels without a box. It's only one way. Cable company boxes have proprietary hardware inside that allows them to communicate with the cable head end, which makes VOD possible. However every system is different and there is no standard for a retail box like TiVo to implement. The systems in use by Comcast and RCN expose the communication side of their VOD servers to the internet so that 3rd party devices like TiVo can communicate with them via IP instead over over coax. Unfortunately doing that is not mandated by the FCC so cable companies have to do it voluntarily, and thus far only Comcast and RCN have done it and even then only in some markets.
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:35 AM   #9
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Sure...and what is their incentive? They lose the box rental fees and get little or no incremental income. Without a mandate, I can't imagine many would bother.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:03 AM   #10
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Sure...and what is their incentive? They lose the box rental fees and get little or no incremental income. Without a mandate, I can't imagine many would bother.
I forget about the box rental aspects, still people like me haven't missed what they didn't have, still they are missing out of potential revenue by establishing a standard that would work with both their boxes and others which use their cable cards.

It is frustrating in issues like this to know that there has been the technology for many years to accomplish something easy yet due to non-technical reasons (political & ruthless business practices) a solution is not delivered.

I really wish I could try my local cableco 's TiVo solution however while they available, they are only allowing new customers to have them. I might try contacting them though their customer support forum as they have online mods that work for the cableco and can make modifications to my account. (Mediacom 's phone support is terrible but their online is excellent).
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:35 AM   #11
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Sure...and what is their incentive? They lose the box rental fees and get little or no incremental income. Without a mandate, I can't imagine many would bother.
The incentive is the PPV and other pay stuff that is on OD, to keep my wife from paying for a movie I have set up the TiVo with a PIN for pay movies, she knows the PIN, but at least she will not start to watch a movie that she thinks is free that is really a pay for movie.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:40 AM   #12
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The incentive is the PPV and other pay stuff that is on OD, to keep my wife from paying for a movie I have set up the TiVo with a PIN for pay movies, she knows the PIN, but at least she will not start to watch a movie that she thinks is free that is really a pay for movie.
Now, you don't get PPV from your CC do you? If so, who is your cable Co and how does that work with your tivo box? I can see the PPV on my TiVo, jut can't buy them.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:36 PM   #13
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Now, you don't get PPV from your CC do you? If so, who is your cable Co and how does that work with your tivo box? I can see the PPV on my TiVo, jut can't buy them.
Theoretically, you should be able to call into your cable company and order PPV events over the phone. As such, the companies system would authorize the PPV channel on your CableCard for the appropriate time limit and then revoke the authorization at the end. This a a YMMV as it works for some people who have tried it, but not for others.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:49 PM   #14
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Theoretically, you should be able to call into your cable company and order PPV events over the phone. As such, the companies system would authorize the PPV channel on your CableCard for the appropriate time limit and then revoke the authorization at the end. This a a YMMV as it works for some people who have tried it, but not for others.
Never thought of that, in this day of automation we forget the old ways of talking to another human to appease our own entertainment desires!
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:26 PM   #15
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Just ordered a roamio plus and mini.I have Verizon FiOS and access their video on demand all the time. Am I going to lose that feature?
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:49 PM   #16
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Just ordered a roamio plus and mini.I have Verizon FiOS and access their video on demand all the time. Am I going to lose that feature?
If you give up the Verizon set-top box, then yes, as you can't do FiOS VOD via a TiVo.

It also appears that if you give up the STB you will also lose the ability to watch Verizon VOD via the FiOS Mobile smartphone/tablet app (which is ridiculous, but it appears to be the case).
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:01 PM   #17
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Not what I wanted to hear but thanks. That's too bad.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:00 PM   #18
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Now, you don't get PPV from your CC do you? If so, who is your cable Co and how does that work with your tivo box? I can see the PPV on my TiVo, jut can't buy them.
Really? I thought the PPV options (e.g. movies) 'just work' on the Tivo. If not, why aren't they filtered out? (I'd want them filtered out anyway.)

Plus, I'm slightly skeptical that the On Demand info is provided from someone else? I have StreamPix (effectively a mini mini mini mini Netflix video-like option that adds to the On Demand options -- I got it as part of a bundle and have _rarely_ used it, but I have used it).. and I can use that through my Tivo too.. That's definitely by Comcast itself.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:30 PM   #19
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Really? I thought the PPV options (e.g. movies) 'just work' on the Tivo. If not, why aren't they filtered out? (I'd want them filtered out anyway.)

Plus, I'm slightly skeptical that the On Demand info is provided from someone else? I have StreamPix (effectively a mini mini mini mini Netflix video-like option that adds to the On Demand options -- I got it as part of a bundle and have _rarely_ used it, but I have used it).. and I can use that through my Tivo too.. That's definitely by Comcast itself.
I have Mediacom and I can see the ppv channels including the what appears as the correct guide info but with a 2 tuner Premiere, if I change to the channel I just get a blank screen. As mentioned the TiVo website mentions Comcast as being given supported but only them, I guess if there were more they would list them.

I only asked as I was curious if the Roamio were different compared to older Tivos because my cable company uses Roamio for their TiVo supplied solution and they have told me their boxes have custom firmware to support their Ppv. Given the fact that I have yet to find anyone at Mediacom who knows anything about TiVo other than how to spell the word TiVo, I really didn't believe them, they explained this was due to that their Roamio could do two communications on the cable card while the normal TiVo's cannot.

It just saves me money not being able to buy Ppv, if I want something better I can watch Netflix or order a movie off Amazon.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:51 PM   #20
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Now, you don't get PPV from your CC do you? If so, who is your cable Co and how does that work with your tivo box? I can see the PPV on my TiVo, jut can't buy them.
With Comcast and RCn you can. The way it works is the TiVo has a special aol that can communicate with the VOD server via the internet. Once you order a movie it dumps you to live TV where it has tuned the required frequency for your VOD "channel". All the communication between the TiVo and the VOD server happens over the internet. Unlike a real cable company supplied box where the communication happens via a two way connection over the coax.
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:42 AM   #21
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I have to post I was wrong about Mediacom using custom Roamio 's as their whole house DVR solution, in receiving the opportunity to see one in person I have found it is in fact a Tivo Premiere 4 model, not Roamio.

So that rather confirms the fact that Mediacom is in fact, using special firmware to handle 2 way communications with the cable card.

Perhaps a mod can move this thread to the coffee house instead of here if there is any use in discussing this further. Also might point out that with more input from Mediacom, their plan at this time is augment the Mediacom branded Tivo Premiere with a Pace box that while it will remain compatible with the Tivo Mini boxes, the Pace box will be a combination cable modem, 6 tuner Tivo compatible dvr and a whole house solution with this Pace box being only available to cable service providers. They had intended to have it in select markets but delays in specialized firmware development prevent such. Also this Pace box has Moca 2.0 which is like regular Moca 1.1 on steroids, apparently the Pace box is intended to be a cable provider 's customized dvr solution that can run Tivo OS or other dedicated Dvr operating systems.

Additional info from my inside source at Mediacom is that they are having more than expected issues with deploying their TiVo solution which the 90 percent of the issues have been related to less than desirable dwelling wiring problems which causes problems with the Moca networks operating correctly and preventing the Mini's from streaming off the Tivo host. Might also add that the monthly cost of Mediacom TiVo service is roughly $37 a month for 2 rooms (one Tivo and one Mini) but of course there is no equipment to buy, each additional Mini is $5 and such allows you to buy PPV from your Tivo interface, what a deal...
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:46 PM   #22
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So that rather confirms the fact that Mediacom is in fact, using special firmware to handle 2 way communications with the cable card.
As I explained above they are NOT doing 2 way communication with the CableCARD. They use a special app that allows them to communicate with the VOD servers over the internet. There is no way to do 2 way communication with a CableCARD. The spec is 1 way only. That's why we need tuning adapters just to tune SDV channels.

Just to be clear they only use the internet for communicating with the VOD servers. The actual streaming of the show happens via the cable using one of the TiVo's tuners just like a regular cable box would use. It's sort of a hybrid system.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:31 PM   #23
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As I explained above they are NOT doing 2 way communication with the CableCARD. They use a special app that allows them to communicate with the VOD servers over the internet. There is no way to do 2 way communication with a CableCARD. The spec is 1 way only. That's why we need tuning adapters just to tune SDV channels.

Just to be clear they only use the internet for communicating with the VOD servers. The actual streaming of the show happens via the cable using one of the TiVo's tuners just like a regular cable box would use. It's sort of a hybrid system.
I just know what a Mediacom TiVo tier 2 support tech told me after I escalated a service call to see if my TiVo could now handle ppv, he explained this was why my TiVo Premiere could tune to the ppv channel but couldn't watch it while their Mediacom branded Tivo Premiere Q could as their's had such firmware and described such firmware as being developed some for them to use only on their cable network which involved different cable card pairing authentication that the standard Tivo could not do.

Isn't it reasonable to assume that while Comcast does their PPV one way, Mediacom is doing such in a different way including implementing function of the cable cards that isn't a industry standard?

My understanding is that the implementation you are describe allows normal TiVo's to access PPV and on demand content on Compass cable and only them. For example the Mediacom TiVo can view PPV previews just like their tuner boxes can, if I tune to that same preview channel on my TiVo all I get is blank screen. The Tivo menus on theirs are slightly different with Mediacom advertising and a whole different appearance. There is definitely different software running on their box compared to normal tivos.

I'm not trying to argue about this as it appears you very knowledgeable and I must admit that my cc has not been very informed about their TiVo product but this man I spoke to seemed well educated with their TiVo product.

I do know I upgraded my TiVo HD today to get in on their Roamio upgrade deal which allowed to keep my existing $6.99 plan and bring the new Roamio in with no contract so Mediacom 's Tivo service isn't in my plans anytime soon.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:03 AM   #24
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Isn't it reasonable to assume that while Comcast does their PPV one way, Mediacom is doing such in a different way including implementing function of the cable cards that isn't a industry standard?
No, because the TiVo Q does not have the hardware required to produce a two way signal over coax. Now I guess it's possible they could have some sort of custom Tuning Adapter, since the TA does have two way capability, but that's unlikely as the TA spec is an industry standard and they probably can't monkey with it too much. (do they even use TAs?) Another possibility is that their modems have built in MoCa (like FiOS) which would allow the TiVo to connect to the modem over coax and appear to the user like it's using a direct connection.

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For example the Mediacom TiVo can view PPV previews just like their tuner boxes can, if I tune to that same preview channel on my TiVo all I get is blank screen.
That's just a CableCARD authorization thing, it does not require two way communication.

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The Tivo menus on theirs are slightly different with Mediacom advertising and a whole different appearance. There is definitely different software running on their box compared to normal tivos.
They're not really running special software. TiVo allows quite a bit of customization of the menus, advertisements, OOT services, etc... at the headend. We don't really see that on the retail side except on the rare occasion there is a server glitch on TiVos end that enables/disables some feature temporarily. If you check the actual software version on a MSO supplied TiVo it's running the same software we are give or take a point release.

Now that Pace box you mentioned earlier is a different animal. It's a real MSO box, with full two way capabilities, that simply runs TiVo software. It uses a chipset similar to the Roamio, so the software is probably similar, but it's completely custom hardware. The TiVo Q is just a rebadged Premiere XL4 so it's identical to what we can buy at retail.
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:07 AM   #25
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Now, you don't get PPV from your CC do you? If so, who is your cable Co and how does that work with your tivo box? I can see the PPV on my TiVo, jut can't buy them.
I have Comcast in Hartford CT, I set up a pin on the TiVo so we don't watch a movie that we may think is free but it is not, so the TiVo makes us enter the pin (for non free movies) if we want to pay.
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:52 PM   #26
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Charter iOS app?

(Hope three weeks isn't past the point of resurrecting a dead thread.)

So, if it's communicating with the head-end that's the problem, is there any reason why selecting "OnDemand" content in charter's iOS app couldn't be made to work with a TiVo? It looks like Charter's app just fires up the stream and tunes the cable box. When I log into it now, I see 4 MAC addresses associated with my account, though all I have is a roamio and a premiere (both with motorola M-cards.)
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Old 02-25-2014, 02:08 PM   #27
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The reason is that Charter has not created the app to work with Tivo. It is not a technical reason, but a business one.
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:42 PM   #28
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Yeah IIRC TiVo was actually working with Charter on something at one point. But then the former CEO of TiVo joined the board of Charter and all communication was halted.
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