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Old 01-26-2014, 08:21 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by reneg View Post
I'd like to call out one part of that Q&A:

Is TiVo exiting the hardware business?
Emphatically, no.
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:28 AM   #92
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I know I was hoping they would have a new TiVo Mini. One that had wireless remote capability built in. That could scale everything to 1080P60. And had WiFi built in as well.
I would sell my current TiVos mInis to replace them if that happened.
60? you want everything to have an extra frames added soap opera effect?
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:35 AM   #93
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60? you want everything to have an extra frames added soap opera effect?
That has nothing to do with the soap opera effect. The Soap Opera effect is caused by TVs that create new frames in between the existing ones by interpolating the data of two frames and creating a new one in between.

When you use 3:2 pulldown, or even 5:5 or 10:10 for 120hz and 240hz Tvs, that does not create the soap opera effect because they are just repeating the same frame multiple times. Not creating frames with new information.

With the TiVo set for 1080P60 output, you don't get the long delay when the resolution changes. With the Roamio set to 1080P60 output, it is under a second when switching channels that have different resolutions. So it would be nice for the Mini to have the same options as the Roamio does for resolution and frame rate output.
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:20 AM   #94
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hmm. I don't get a long delay, I just set everything to 1080i.
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:04 PM   #95
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That has nothing to do with the soap opera effect. The Soap Opera effect is caused by TVs that create new frames in between the existing ones by interpolating the data of two frames and creating a new one in between.
Hmmm... I don't think this is entirely true. Any video that comes in at 60FPS, if it's interpolated or actually in the source. Either way, we associate that frame rate with "soap operas."

Like, if you went to see the Hobbit movies at 60FPS, you got that affect.

Right?
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:19 PM   #96
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Hmmm... I don't think this is entirely true. Any video that comes in at 60FPS, if it's interpolated or actually in the source. Either way, we associate that frame rate with "soap operas."

Like, if you went to see the Hobbit movies at 60FPS, you got that affect.

Right?
That is completely different. Each frame is different. A normal movie in the theater runs at 48FPS with every frame duplicated from the normal 24FPS. Otherwise just about every 1080P HDTv made would have the Soap Opera effect since they were 60FPS. But that is not the case. The only time I've ever seen the soap opera effect on a Tv is when that frame interpolation had been on. For instance my Parents Tv has it and my dad leaves it on. I hate watching Tv there. I've owned around a dozen HDTVs and I've never owned one that had the Soap Opera Effect. And if i ever do own one that had that interpolation feature, it will be turned off.

EDIT: also the Hobbit was filmed in 48 FPS not 60 FPS. I personally do not like it. I saw the first Hobbit movie in 48FPS but avoided it for the second Hobbit movie.

'The Hobbit' at 48fps: Frame Rates Explained

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...You may have also heard of the "soap opera" effect, which occurs with some recent high-definition television sets that feature 120Hz or 240Hz modes, instead of just the usual 60Hz. (The frame rate is usually expressed as "Hz" with progressive scan monitors; hence, 60Hz instead of 60 fps). The frame rate of the source material is independent of the refresh rate of the TV. Instead, what's happening here is that the TV, using its own software, is interpolating what would have been in the original source material, had there been extra frames, and adds them on its own for a smoother effect. The problem is that it also looks somewhat unnatural, or dreamy, and more like an older live TV camera than proper film footage. I personally don't like it. I turn this mode off on my own 120Hz set, and while I've seen countless 240Hz HDTVs, I have yet to warm up to the effect........

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Old 01-27-2014, 01:35 PM   #97
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Is funny how everybody thinks differently about things like the soap opera effect on tvs ,My wife and i love the soap opera effect! I must admit it took a little getting used too,but i always leave it on! my wife and i actually bought our samsung tv because we loved how the the soap opera effect looked while watching the batman movie on it at best buy!
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:37 PM   #98
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Is funny how everybody thinks differently about things like the soap opera effect on tvs ,My wife and i love the soap opera effect! I must admit it took a little getting used too,but i always leave it on!
I think for me it's just that for over four decades I watched content in a way that became normal to me. So the Soap effect seems abnormal. If I had grown up with it I wouldn't mind it. But when you've watched thousands of movies for over 40 years and they look a certain way, to see the same movies look very different with the Soap Opera effect just doesn't look right to me.

My Dad is near 80 and has the Soap Opera effect set on with his SONy LCD HDTv but he doesn't usually watch the HDTV. He sits at his desk and the same content is sent to an old tube TV which looks like what I'm used to seeing. And my Mom doesn't even want to watch the HD channels on the Tv preferring to watch the SD channels. So between both of them I really hate watching TV there when I visit.
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:41 PM   #99
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Is funny how everybody thinks differently about things like the soap opera effect on tvs ,My wife and i love the soap opera effect! I must admit it took a little getting used too,but i always leave it on!
It is likely that it all boils down to what you are used to. From a technical standpoint, higher fps is "better". But personal preferences can differ. This is true not just about fps, but other aspects of video as well. For example, I have a friend that absolutely hates 16:9 aspect ratio and says she is sticking with her 4:3 CRT until it dies. And I, personally, dislike computer animation and prefer traditional hand-drawn animation. But like it or not eventually all TV's will probably be 16:9 and all animation will likely be computer generated, and all video will eventually have a higher frame rate. It's called "progress".

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Old 01-27-2014, 02:24 PM   #100
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It is likely that it all boils down to what you are used to. From a technical standpoint, higher fps is "better". But personal preferences can differ. This is true not just about fps, but other aspects of video as well. For example, I have a friend that absolutely hates 16:9 aspect ratio and says she is sticking with her 4:3 CRT until it dies. And I, personally, dislike computer animation and prefer traditional hand-drawn animation. But like it or not eventually all TV's will probably be 16:9 and all animation will likely be computer generated, and all video will eventually have a higher frame rate. It's called "progress".
There is no technical standpoint on which you can say more FPS is "better". In this context it is a purely subjective standard. It's like saying "onions are technically better, but some people just don't like them"
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Old 01-27-2014, 02:32 PM   #101
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There is no technical standpoint on which you can say more FPS is "better". In this context it is a purely subjective standard. It's like saying "onions are technically better, but some people just don't like them"
Is 1080p technically better than 720p? Is 4k technically better than 1080p? Is 8k technically better than 4k? The answer is yes. And in the same way that a higher resolution is always technically better than a lower resolution, a higher frame rate is always technically better than a lower frame rate, because it gets you closer and closer to reality. Now, from a subjective standpoint, some people might not like to watch video on a screen and have it look closer to reality than they have grown accustomed to.
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:04 PM   #102
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Is 1080p technically better than 720p? Is 4k technically better than 1080p? Is 8k technically better than 4k? The answer is yes. And in the same way that a higher resolution is always technically better than a lower resolution, a higher frame rate is always technically better than a lower frame rate, because it gets you closer and closer to reality. Now, from a subjective standpoint, some people might not like to watch video on a screen and have it look closer to reality than they have grown accustomed to.
I agree completely. If "soap opera effect" refers to using interpolated frames to make action appear smoother, I'm all for it. There may be some problems with implementation (partly due to limited processing power), and it can't remove blur in the frames being interpolated, but it often helps IMNSHO. My ideal would be for the picture I see to appear just like I'm looking through a window at the action.
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:06 PM   #103
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Is 1080p technically better than 720p? Is 4k technically better than 1080p? Is 8k technically better than 4k? The answer is yes. And in the same way that a higher resolution is always technically better than a lower resolution, a higher frame rate is always technically better than a lower frame rate, because it gets you closer and closer to reality. Now, from a subjective standpoint, some people might not like to watch video on a screen and have it look closer to reality than they have grown accustomed to.
But they're not always technically better. Just as megapixel vs. sensor size in digital cameras over the past few years have begun to show, there's more to the implementation of a technology than one raw number.
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:09 PM   #104
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But they're not always technically better. Just as megapixel vs. sensor size in digital cameras over the past few years have begun to show, there's more to the implementation of a technology than one raw number.
Certainly there could be technological challenges and limitations to implementing a higher frame rate properly. But assuming no hardware or software limitations, a higher frame rate (and higher resolution) is technically better.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:15 PM   #105
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But they're not always technically better. Just as megapixel vs. sensor size in digital cameras over the past few years have begun to show, there's more to the implementation of a technology than one raw number.
All things being equal?
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:48 PM   #106
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All things being equal?
All things being equal, it still depends. And no, not always better. At some point cramming more pixels into a CCD or CMOS sensor wasn't doing anything to improve the picture and became detrimental to the image quality. Same thing might be said about framerate. It's like video card reviews that framerate is the only thing they test. Image quality is just as important. FPS is not the most important statistic and might take away from others if improperly prioritized.

At any rate, my point was that something like framerate is purely subjective. "More" doesn't mean better. We're not trying to get to goal in a faster amount of time like a faster CPU. We're trying to get the best looking image.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:53 PM   #107
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At any rate, my point was that something like framerate is purely subjective. "More" doesn't mean better.
"More" might not always mean "better" once we get to the point where the human eye can no longer distinguish between higher frame rates and higher image resolutions, but until that day comes "more" will mean "better" from a purely technical point of view. I'm sure if you look hard enough you could find people that prefer the look of SD to HD or prefer black and white TV to color TV. That's a subjective preference, but from a technical perspective of making video on a screen appear as close to reality as possible, those people are just wrong.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:55 PM   #108
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I GIVE UP
The sky is pink
Up is down
Whatever you say!
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Old 01-27-2014, 10:16 PM   #109
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I GIVE UP
The sky is pink
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I call this the two minute test, walk into a room with a HDTV and look at the picture, is it sharp and clear or blurry (to you), if sharp and clear I don't care what the frame rate or resolution is if I like the picture, on some news programs they will show a TV tape made in the 60s or 70s, looks awful. Most new HDTV 65" or under do a great job with HD program material, on big sets like 110" some of these other specs may make a difference that one could notice, I don't have such a big TV so I don't know, but I do have a 80" high end Sharp HDTV that I think looks so much better than the 8 year old DLP it replaced, I am one happy camper.
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:56 PM   #110
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Nope. It doesn't mean the end of retail hardware.
It does. At least in the form we are accustomed to seeing the Tivo name associated with. It won't happen overnight. Roamio is fine for many years yet.

But the way I see it is things are getting awful close to the breaking point because, today, we can watch video any time we want through graphical user interfaces on hockey-puck sized devices costing less than $100 without any need to schedule a recording in advance.

That's today. Go out 3 or 4 or 5 years. Seems pretty obvious this type of device/service will replace the old way.

It is all really nothing more than "Netflix-izing" cable tv.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:02 AM   #111
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That's today. Go out 3 or 4 or 5 years. Seems pretty obvious this type of device/service will replace the old way.

It is all really nothing more than "Netflix-izing" cable tv.
Until cable companies completely eliminate linear channels and convert their entire bandwidth capacity to IP/VOD, there will still be a market for DVRs. Time Warner probably won't even phase out analog channels for another 3 to 5 years, so at the glacial pace with which they move it'll be 2040 before that happens, if ever.
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:25 AM   #112
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It does. At least in the form we are accustomed to seeing the Tivo name associated with. It won't happen overnight. Roamio is fine for many years yet.

But the way I see it is things are getting awful close to the breaking point because, today, we can watch video any time we want through graphical user interfaces on hockey-puck sized devices costing less than $100 without any need to schedule a recording in advance.

That's today. Go out 3 or 4 or 5 years. Seems pretty obvious this type of device/service will replace the old way.

It is all really nothing more than "Netflix-izing" cable tv.
TiVo may not release another retail DVR, who knows. But this particular development in their workforce doesn't mean that is happening. They likely don't know what they're going to do for the next series of retail DVRs. They may have a roadmap and plans, but to try to read anything into these 4 or 5 people being reassigned or laid off is not useful.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:32 AM   #113
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That is completely different. Each frame is different. A normal movie in the theater runs at 48FPS with every frame duplicated from the normal 24FPS. Otherwise just about every 1080P HDTv made would have the Soap Opera effect since they were 60FPS. But that is not the case. The only time I've ever seen the soap opera effect on a Tv is when that frame interpolation had been on. For instance my Parents Tv has it and my dad leaves it on. I hate watching Tv there. I've owned around a dozen HDTVs and I've never owned one that had the Soap Opera Effect. And if i ever do own one that had that interpolation feature, it will be turned off.
All HDTVs do 60FPS, but you don't notice, cause they double the frames. But if the source were in 60FPS, it would LOOK like the soap opera effect. It happens because we aren't used to seeing 60FPS from movies and TV shows. The reason you have only seen it on TVs with interpolation is because thats the only way you're seeing a 60FPS source. Movies and TV shows aren't filmed in 60FPS and even when your TV is showing 60FPS or the source material is in 60FPS (according to the HDMI cable or whatever) it's still only showing a movie or TV show that was filmed in 60FPS. Showing the same frame twice is seen by your eyes as a single frame showed for double the amount of time.

Again, I'm not seeing anything you're saying here that contradicts what I am pretty sure I read. Anytime you see something in > 30FPS, it's going to have the soap opera effect. This is because soap operas are filmed at a higher frame rate because they are a weird kind of video instead of film. Something that's much cheaper to film in.

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EDIT: also the Hobbit was filmed in 48 FPS not 60 FPS. I personally do not like it. I saw the first Hobbit movie in 48FPS but avoided it for the second Hobbit movie.

'The Hobbit' at 48fps: Frame Rates Explained
Ok, sure, 48. It's still > 30, which is the point. I like it. I think it made the movies look sharp and clear. And I think the 2nd one did a much better job than the first one at making it so you didn't find yourself looking at the makeup on Gandalf's nose going "wow, that's loreal's finest" or whatever.

My TV does interpolation. I did turn it off for the TV input, but left it on for the video game/BD input.

You get used to it. It's better.

It's like back when people watched letter boxed movies and said "i don't like it because you can't see the whole movie." That's because they believed they were seeing the whole movie before. Eventually, people will be informed and source material will start being filmed in >30fps and we'll all like it.

edit: to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm no expert... I'm saying, this is my understanding, and you've yet to actually dispute it directly. You're kind of dancing around my point. I know interpolation causes it... but so does ANYTHING which produces a > 30 FPS source.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:36 AM   #114
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All things being equal, it still depends. And no, not always better. At some point cramming more pixels into a CCD or CMOS sensor wasn't doing anything to improve the picture and became detrimental to the image quality. Same thing might be said about framerate. It's like video card reviews that framerate is the only thing they test. Image quality is just as important. FPS is not the most important statistic and might take away from others if improperly prioritized.

At any rate, my point was that something like framerate is purely subjective. "More" doesn't mean better. We're not trying to get to goal in a faster amount of time like a faster CPU. We're trying to get the best looking image.

I think PC gamers long ago settled on 80FPS as the highest rate that the human eye cares about. Anything higher ends up being wasted.
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:30 PM   #115
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Until cable companies completely eliminate linear channels and convert their entire bandwidth capacity to IP/VOD, there will still be a market for DVRs. Time Warner probably won't even phase out analog channels for another 3 to 5 years, so at the glacial pace with which they move it'll be 2040 before that happens, if ever.
But Samsung stopped putting analog tuners in their tvs 3-4 years ago.

And cable companies already deliver video via IP to your pc or mobile device.

They don't need to completely switch over to start offering time shifted video to your Roku. And once the floodgates open.....

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Old 01-29-2014, 06:34 PM   #116
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I think PC gamers long ago settled on 80FPS as the highest rate that the human eye cares about. Anything higher ends up being wasted.
Where did 80 come from? I'd say the number if even higher. But there is a limit to what you can perceive.

Also there is a difference between video and computer graphics when it comes to how high of a frame rate it takes for the eye not to be able to perceive a change in frame rate. Video has motion blur. Computer graphics are sharp-edged sorta speak. From what I've read that is why 24 frames a second is fine for movies. While 24 frames/sec is laggy in vidoegames.

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Old 01-29-2014, 06:56 PM   #117
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They don't need to completely switch over to start offering time shifted video to your Roku. And once the floodgates open.....
When ISPs get rid of data caps, let me know. I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:15 PM   #118
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When ISPs get rid of data caps, let me know. I'm not holding my breath.
NOthing to do with it.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:33 PM   #119
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IT means the end of days for retail Tivos. The last generation is the Roamio. That seems like a change.

Going forward there is little to no point in trying to sell $750 boxes to consumers so they can watch video when the tech is out there to watch time shifted video on a small form factor, efficient $80 AppleTV or Roku.
I believe too that the days of retail Tivos is done, look at all the agreements that TiVo has signed with cable providers especially with the Pace box running Tivo software interface. Combine that with last year's appeals court ruling that may spell the end of cable cards.

http://www.lightreading.com/cable-vi.../d/d-id/705873

With their announcement of reducing their in house engineers, their cloud based Dvr ideas the conclusion is simple, you can have your Tivo interface but it will be supplied by your cable company

Three years ago they were sueing cable co's over Dvr patients, but now most of those have been settled or dismissed. If you can't beat them, join them! The revenue model for working with the cable companies is just as high as selling subscriptions to a few people who want a retail TiVo, the majority of cable subscribers want a one stop Dvr solution and are turned away from dealing with both cable companies and Tivo, people like us here at TCF are a relatively small group when compared to the cable subscriber base.

While there might be a sixth generation Tivo, I bet the Roamio will be the last DVR that you will be able to buy, pop in a cable card and watch TV.
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:31 PM   #120
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I'm much less pessimistic about retail TiVos than some of you.

Remember, TiVo was not in the hardware business when they started off, only entered the hardware business a couple of years later when forced to, and has always said that they did not want to be in the hardware business. Getting rid of hardware engineers is not a surprise or a big change.

With all the cable company deals TiVo now has going for it, they can now offer a solid base of sales to hardware manufacturers like Pace. The retail market will just be an extra for such a manufacturer; not big enough to devote a separate product to it, but big enough to make money off of a slightly altered model.

I don't know whether the new models will be badged as TiVos, or whether TiVo will go back to their original scheme of the manufacturer being responsible for the sales. I suspect TiVo would like the latter but have to settle for the former.

In any case, I don't see any indication that TiVo is thinking of dropping the retail market - they now have very viable options going forward with the retail market without designing their own hardware (something they did not have before the cable company deals of the past few years).
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