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Old 12-18-2013, 10:56 AM   #91
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Yawn. Amazon Streaming, Vudu, and hulu+ please.

And NBA League Pass and I can sell my Roku 3!

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WiFi seems to have gotten worse with this update. I had to reboot my Roamio for the second time in the past few days to get network connectivity back.
I noticed that after the update also with the Roamio in my SIL bedroom. Signal strength was 75% (Good) but would not reconnect to my wireless router. Rebooted the Roamio and wireless connected immediately at 100% signal strength (Excellent).

Interesting side-note, I was able to stream a Lakers game directly from my SIL's wireless Roamio to my wired Roamio Pro, No pauses, no buffering, no messages it couldn't do it because of the wireless connection...

I should be getting a new Actiontec MoCA adapter tonight so the SIL's Roamio will also be on the MoCA network once again.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:27 PM   #92
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Anyone else have some apps that show up outside the "action-safe" area? TechCrunch (navigation text on the left hand side gets cut off) and the new AOL On (icons on the left hand side get cut off) both exhibit this on my TV. I think some of the older apps also have this, but I don't remember which ones.

Not a huge deal. Could just be my TV I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overscan#Overscan_amounts
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:44 PM   #93
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I'm seeing this too.

I wonder if I can set my TV sot show the whole picture?
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:45 PM   #94
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Yeah I had zero and i mean zero issues with my Premiere.

The Roamio Plus ,on the other hand, has been a headache from streamin problems,c133 messages, lockups .

But it does boot up faster !
Same here.
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:04 PM   #95
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I'm seeing this too.

I wonder if I can set my TV sot show the whole picture?

Yes, most TVs can be set to show all the pixels, at least on HD signals. I just had to adjust a TV today to do so (it's connected to a computer and the edges of a web page were cut off)

Every manufacturer labels it differently in their menus but if you poke around you should be able to find it.

I always do this. The only problem is that some channels broadcast garbage in the top or bottom scan lines. I think this is the main reason HDTVs still default to overscanning — to avoid displaying that crap. (I just put up with it. My girlfriend and I find it more annoying to have parts of the picture cropped out than to have the occasional flickering scanline on certain channels.)
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:48 AM   #96
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I'm seeing this too.

I wonder if I can set my TV sot show the whole picture?
More than likely, or in the majority of cases, the answer is yes. The following info is with 1080P native resolution TVs:

You set display area to "full pixel" on a Sony TV (old and new, alike). I have a Samsung TV that calls it "just scan", which does the same thing. The setting stops the TV from adjusting the overscan/underscan. On the Samsung, it is an option easier to get to, where you select "just scan" as opposed to 4:3/16:9. It forces the TV to just display the signal it receives natively, leaving the aspect ratio adjusting to the input device. I've seen it work with both brands of TV when the signal is through HDMI (always works), as well as component (not composite), so long as the input is a natively supported signal.

"Full Pixel" and/or "just scan" stops the TV from adjusting the display area, which results in the TV displaying the signal EXACTLY as it is sent to it. The downside of this is you will sometimes see a scan line of noise at the very top of the screen, that has black and white segments jumping around (this noise is macrovision, or other protection placed into the signal), and you may sometimes see tiny grey lines on each side of the screen, usually only when the sides of the picture are black, or very dark. These downsides are usually minimal distraction with any 1080 format, but more distracting if the format is 720P, which can be minimized by disabling all resolutions below 1080 (on the input device, itself).

When you force the TV to use the signal as-is, you also improve the quality of the picture, since you eliminate the reprocessing that happens when you allow overscan/underscan. The pixels end up exactly where they were meant to be, instead of being zoomed out of their native position, to eliminate the noise/bands insuring you don't see the noise around the edges.

If macrovision, and other protections, were not present, the TV manufacturers would use native display as the default (for best picture quality), as opposed to defaulting to insure that CP noise and light edges on the sides of dark scenes wouldn't be visible.

Hopefully this will help many people. I love that I can force a Roamio to only output my TVs native resolutions of 1080P/60 and 1080P/24. This, combined with forcing a native display of the signal, makes all my TVs seem like I just went out and bought new ones.

Last edited by nooneuknow : 12-19-2013 at 04:58 AM. Reason: correction
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Old 12-19-2013, 04:29 AM   #97
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Edit/Add Note: In the time it took me to type this out, somebody beat me to the punch, and punch-line.
It took you 4.5 hours to type that?
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Old 12-19-2013, 04:54 AM   #98
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It took you 4.5 hours to type that?
I guess I was wrong, now that you point that out.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:52 AM   #99
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If macrovision, and other protections, were not present, the TV manufacturers would use native display as the default (for best picture quality), as opposed to defaulting to insure that CP noise and light edges on the sides of dark scenes wouldn't be visible.
I think it's actually the closed caption or PSIP data, because it appears on OTA channels which have no protection.
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:19 PM   #100
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I think it's actually the closed caption or PSIP data, because it appears on OTA channels which have no protection.
Could be... I researched it on the AV-related forums, and came up with the same explanation from multiple sources, then did some Wikipedia research to help verify that I understood correctly.

But, I don't dispute that you've seen what you've seen. Perhaps that top line (or those top lines) are used for multiple uses, that assume nobody will see they are there. It would make sense to make use of that space, if available, for other uses.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:47 PM   #101
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........Perhaps that top line (or those top lines) are used for multiple uses, that assume nobody will see they are there. It would make sense to make use of that space, if available, for other uses.
It is, it's called the "vertical blanking interval" and that's where information/data is inserted in TV signals.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:55 PM   #102
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It is, it's called the "vertical blanking interval" and that's where information/data is inserted in TV signals.
You mean "used to be inserted" in analog NTSC, as digital signals that the Tivo handles do not have VBI.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:16 AM   #103
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You mean "used to be inserted" in analog NTSC, as digital signals that the Tivo handles do not have VBI.
I haven't seen them for a long time, but the digital signals used to have VBI signals in them back when analog was being converted to digital. With most signals now being digital along the entire path from encoding to playback, VBI I'd agree with you.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:40 PM   #104
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Yeah, I'm showing my age I guess, but I still do see the data when I have an under scanned image.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:16 PM   #105
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I found a way to set my TV to full pixel mode. Not sure why TVs still use an overscan area for 16:9.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:39 PM   #106
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I found a way to set my TV to full pixel mode. Not sure why TVs still use an overscan area for 16:9.
To help insure that the people who buy them don't return them, if they see the noise that would otherwise be pushed off the edge of the display area (in 16:9 mode w/auto overscan), and find it annoying/distracting.

Also, if you were in a showroom full of TVs, and some had a bezel obscuring that noise, in full-pixel/just-scan mode, you may be inclined to buy a TV that simply has a bezel that covers more of the LCD/LED panel, than one that doesn't obscure/overlap the panel.

You have to have the knowledge, as a buyer, to know what the deal is, and the TV makers can't count on that. So, they default to a way where unless the store changes each and every display's settings to full-pixel/just-scan, none of the display units will be showing the whole picture, in a true native mode.

It's still a downside, for those looking for the best picture, since the best picture isn't displayed with the added overscan to hide any potential noise along any edge.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:13 PM   #107
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That "noise" is the VBI signal and only exists on analog stations. Since analog can't be 16:9 it makes no sense to make the 16:9 mode use over scan. 4:3 sure, but 16:9 can only come from a digital recording and digital recordings store captions digitally not as VBI. The only exception I can think of is DVDs. Some DVD players will convert the digital captions to VBI so the TV can display the captions. However most DVDs use subtitles, not NTSC captions, so this would be really rare.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:21 PM   #108
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Analog can be 16:9 if it's squeezed horizontally and then stretched back out in the display, aka anamorphic.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:36 PM   #109
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This discussion is kind of drifting the thread off topic, but...

Unless Cox is falsely representing analog as 16:9 HD digital, then I have to "disagree" (if that's even the right word).

I see the top "noise" dancing around on HD stations, especially local rebroadcast stations, even more so on those that are broadcast in 720P, and often see slim, light, side edges when the picture is dark, or is dark at the sides. It doesn't matter which TV I use.

It's not bothersome enough for me to revert back to the default 16:9 overscan, but is for others I personally know. So, YMMV, etc.

Last edited by nooneuknow : 12-20-2013 at 04:43 PM. Reason: specifics
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:45 PM   #110
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From what I recall from my broadcasting days early on in the digital transition then the VBI information was removed and embedded into the digital signal but it had to be regenerated at the receiving end for any older equipment that still may be in the loop. Maybe that is what is still going on?
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:59 PM   #111
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Analog can be 16:9 if it's squeezed horizontally and then stretched back out in the display, aka anamorphic.
DVDs are the only thing that are anamorphic and they store captions digitally too. Although in some cases DVD players will create a VBI from the digital captions for support on older TVs. However very few commercial DVDs actually have real NTSC captions, most of them just use a subtitle stream instead.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:03 PM   #112
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From what I recall from my broadcasting days early on in the digital transition then the VBI information was removed and embedded into the digital signal but it had to be regenerated at the receiving end for any older equipment that still may be in the loop. Maybe that is what is still going on?
Could be. I don't know enough to really contribute any further, and I'd like to let the thread get back on-topic. The AVS forum seems to be the best venue for everybody to learn from, and ask questions in. It's getting pretty speculative, and old-tech vs. new-tech in this venue.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:06 PM   #113
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This discussion is kind of drifting the thread off topic, but...

Unless Cox is falsely representing analog as 16:9 HD digital, then I have to "disagree" (if that's even the right word).

I see the top "noise" dancing around on HD stations, especially local rebroadcast stations, even more so on those that are broadcast in 720P, and often see slim, light, side edges when the picture is dark, or is dark at the sides. It doesn't matter which TV I use.

It's not bothersome enough for me to revert back to the default 16:9 overscan, but is for others I personally know. So, YMMV, etc.
Cox must be doing something weird then. HD does not use VBI. In fact HDMI does not even support VBI so even if it was in the stream your TV wouldn't know what to do with it on the HDMI input. Some cable boxes will generate a VBI signal and lay it onto the video if they're set to analog output (even component) but you shouldn't be seeing that with TiVo because it doesn't do that. It has an internal caption decoder, so it just decodes the captions itself and overlays them on the video stream.

Are you saying that with a TiVo, connected via HDMI, you're seeing the VBI flicker along the top edge and the faded edge down the left like you would on an old analog recording even on HD channels?
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:17 PM   #114
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Are you saying that with a TiVo, connected via HDMI, you're seeing the VBI flicker along the top edge and the faded edge down the left like you would on an old analog recording even on HD channels?
Yes, exactly. It also wouldn't be the first time I've discovered Cox providing "Fake HD", if that is the case, and likely won't be the last.

I just did a check, and channels that are cable-only tend to have nothing at all at the top, or even the thin light edges at the sides. If the channels are anything that any Cox area in my market could be pulling from OTA and rebroadcasting, the thin, light, edges and dancing top lines are there.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:46 PM   #115
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Maybe they have some old equipment in the loop for OTA. Something leftover from the analog days.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:48 PM   #116
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Cox does have quite a few channels SD and HD that are not quite centered, there is a small black bar (or noise) on both the top and left side, when overscan is not used, at times it is quite distracting. All of the HBO HD channels have a black bar across the top.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:56 PM   #117
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Cox must be doing something weird then. HD does not use VBI. In fact HDMI does not even support VBI so even if it was in the stream your TV wouldn't know what to do with it on the HDMI input. Some cable boxes will generate a VBI signal and lay it onto the video if they're set to analog output (even component) but you shouldn't be seeing that with TiVo because it doesn't do that. It has an internal caption decoder, so it just decodes the captions itself and overlays them on the video stream.

Are you saying that with a TiVo, connected via HDMI, you're seeing the VBI flicker along the top edge and the faded edge down the left like you would on an old analog recording even on HD channels?
Now that you've changed your overscan mode, spend some time scanning your channels(HD and SD), esp. the broadcast networks. I'm betting at least a couple will show the VBI bar. I see it on a few channels here in Comcast-land in S. NJ. Doesn't bother me enough to change the mode either, since if I do change it, I'll tend to forget about it until I notice something getting cut off like you and mrizzo80 did in the Opera Apps.

Speaking of which, I too was hoping to have favorites pinned outside the Opera Store app, on the Apps and Games Tivo menu. I don't think "I should go to the store" when I want to use something I've already 'purchased' (pinned, favorited, downloaded, installed, whatever )
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:53 PM   #118
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Nope. Flipped through all the locals and no VBI on any of them. We did just go though a major all digital conversion here, so maybe they did before that and I just never noticed.

But I guess if there are enough places that do still have that then it would explain why cropping the overscan is the default.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:41 PM   #119
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DVDs are the only thing that are anamorphic and they store captions digitally too. Although in some cases DVD players will create a VBI from the digital captions for support on older TVs. However very few commercial DVDs actually have real NTSC captions, most of them just use a subtitle stream instead.
Not true. Laserdiscs had anamorphic video and they were composite analog. I've also seen it on VHS tapes and other pro (BetacamSP, etc) tape formats. I've also come across anamorphic broadcast TV where it was in a 4:3 format on the display but you could clearly see it was 16:9 squeezed into it and you would stretch to full width for proper aspect ratio. The original Japanese NHK MUSE Hi-Vision (HDTV) was analog and also had the ability for anamorphic.

PS - although those are rare, mostly because there weren't enough widescreen AR displays back then.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:00 PM   #120
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Not true. Laserdiscs had anamorphic video and they were composite analog. I've also seen it on VHS tapes and other pro (BetacamSP, etc) tape formats. I've also come across anamorphic broadcast TV where it was in a 4:3 format on the display but you could clearly see it was 16:9 squeezed into it and you would stretch to full width for proper aspect ratio. The original Japanese NHK MUSE Hi-Vision (HDTV) was analog and also had the ability for anamorphic.

PS - although those are rare, mostly because there weren't enough widescreen AR displays back then.
Since you know so much about it, would you like to buy the Pioneer LaserDisc player I have? It's kind of neat. It has a tray-within-a-tray loading system that lets you eject the large tray, or a smaller one to play CDs with. I don't even remember how I got it, but I used to use it to play audio CDs (it still works for that, but I don't have any laserdiscs).
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