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Old 12-02-2013, 04:21 AM   #1441
HarperVision
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Well said! However, the thing that many often overlook, is LONGEVITY. There's more to this than "It works fine right now, running my 7200RPM black (or other high-performance) drive". The cooling fans in TiVos are known for failing (although some call making excessive noise "failing"), or lessening the amount of airflow (reducing the cooling efficiency) they are supposed to provide. Although, the Roamio hasn't been out long enough to know how well the fan performs (when components are changed to ones that operate hotter), and/or how long it will last (having to run faster, to compensate, tends to shorten the life of a fan). In either case, it's more than the drive that will run hotter. More than likely, the over-spec drive will be the component that fails first, with the power supply second for probability of potential damage, or shortened life. As for the rest of the TiVo, it will likely just become unstable, and/or shut itself down, to protect itself (if airflow is reduced, stops, or the internal temperature is increased). Since a base Roamio has an external power supply, it's an exception to what I said above regarding the power supply being cooled by the internal TiVo fan. But, it may still have a potential to fail sooner, IF the drive in use is drawing more current than the margin the power supply is designed to deal with, as that will still increase the operating temperature inside the fully enclosed wall-wart power supply, and/or increase the amount of stress to its components. Remember, Green and Green AV drives are often used in tightly enclosed, non ventilated external drive enclosures. Try running a high performance drive in a sealed enclosure like that, and see how long the drive lasts. Even the Green/Green AV drives, when used in a sealed external enclosure, tend to fail much more quickly, which is why most who have been around these forums and taken in a lot of posts, will have seen that people have a lot of negative experiences using DVR expander drives, and will choose to try and stick to one internal drive, and not risk losing everything due to the external failing. I have nothing to gain, or lose, by staying silent and letting things play out, or by periodically taking the time to comment on these matters. I just like people to be informed. If anybody thinks what I say is "tech-babble", try reading through all the different drive data sheets/white papers (not just the marketing materials), and you will then realize I have simplified as best I can, without loosing the true meaning of it all.
Well said by you too, sir! You're post is exactly what I was looking for. As a matter of fact this barracuda I'm using came out of an enclosed, tight, low airflow external enclosure known as the Seagate Free Agent Xtreme. So maybe it's designed for that environment? Can someone with the stock drive or green drive at 5400 rpm tell me what their internal temps are in the DVR diagnostic menu? Also, I think you may be misinterpreting the "techno babble" comments based on the posts I've seen you make since then.

Peace out brah!
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Old 12-02-2013, 05:57 AM   #1442
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Originally Posted by HarperVision View Post
Well said by you too, sir! You're post is exactly what I was looking for. As a matter of fact this barracuda I'm using came out of an enclosed, tight, low airflow external enclosure known as the Seagate Free Agent Xtreme. So maybe it's designed for that environment? Can someone with the stock drive or green drive at 5400 rpm tell me what their internal temps are in the DVR diagnostic menu? Also, I think you may be misinterpreting the "techno babble" comments based on the posts I've seen you make since then.

Peace out brah!
By any chance, was in in an aluminum enclosure, as opposed to plastic? It makes a world of difference. Unventilated plastic enclosures are what I was speaking of. The aluminum ones actually tend to be as tight a fit as possible, and heat-sink away heat from the drive (when of the tight-fit variety). The plastic ones seal it in.

I pulled some 7200 RPM Seagate drives out of Iomega-branded aluminum enclosures, hoping to find WD Green drives inside (I didn't know they were aluminum enclosures, until the delivery came).

After some research on those drives, I learned they are part of what used to be the "Barracuda" 7200.1 line, but are also considered "Green", as in the way Seagate says it for such drives "Green when they need to be".

"Barracuda" has either been discontinued as a name name, or has been re-assigned, AFAIK. I don't buy Seagate, unless by accident. So, I only looked up those drives, got the details, and they sit around as 2TB image holders for when I need to image a HD or Premiere. Even though they likely meet the thermal and current envelopes for TiVo, I feel (as in my own opinion) that there's no point in using a 7200RPM drive in such a low-demand environment. After some benchmarking, trying to emulate the way TiVo reads/writes, I found that WD Green drives outperformed them. Sometimes a lower RPM just works better.

If I ever get around to finally building a couple of tower computers, and had to choose between WD Green and those same Seagate drives, the Seagates would be hands-down my first choice (if those were my only two choices).

I think I've provided about all the intel I have to offer, other than you'd have better results reading temps with a thermal probe, or an infrared temp sensing gun, than just taking a reading off the TiVo screen, which is just the TiVo mainboard temp, taken very close to, or even possibly from within the TiVo's CPU. Many threads exist asking where the sensor is. If we've had to guess over several generations of TiVos, I'm guessing it's still a mystery in this one. Also, with the base-model Roamio being a tighter-fitting enclosure, made out of PLASTIC, I do sincerely hope TiVo put the very best fan money can buy in those. Premieres actually used dimples in the bottom of the chassis and thermal-pads to make the case one giant heat-sink for the tuner chips (from the bottom). The only thing cooling the base-model Roamio, is the airflow provided by that one little fan... Take it out of service, and I wonder how long until it cooks to death, or shuts itself down...
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:19 PM   #1443
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post

By any chance, was in in an aluminum enclosure, as opposed to plastic? It makes a world of difference. Unventilated plastic enclosures are what I was speaking of. The aluminum ones actually tend to be as tight a fit as possible, and heat-sink away heat from the drive (when of the tight-fit variety). The plastic ones seal it in.

I pulled some 7200 RPM Seagate drives out of Iomega-branded aluminum enclosures, hoping to find WD Green drives inside (I didn't know they were aluminum enclosures, until the delivery came).

After some research on those drives, I learned they are part of what used to be the "Barracuda" 7200.1 line, but are also considered "Green", as in the way Seagate says it for such drives "Green when they need to be".

"Barracuda" has either been discontinued as a name name, or has been re-assigned, AFAIK. I don't buy Seagate, unless by accident. So, I only looked up those drives, got the details, and they sit around as 2TB image holders for when I need to image a HD or Premiere. Even though they likely meet the thermal and current envelopes for TiVo, I feel (as in my own opinion) that there's no point in using a 7200RPM drive in such a low-demand environment. After some benchmarking, trying to emulate the way TiVo reads/writes, I found that WD Green drives outperformed them. Sometimes a lower RPM just works better.

If I ever get around to finally building a couple of tower computers, and had to choose between WD Green and those same Seagate drives, the Seagates would be hands-down my first choice (if those were my only two choices).

I think I've provided about all the intel I have to offer, other than you'd have better results reading temps with a thermal probe, or an infrared temp sensing gun, than just taking a reading off the TiVo screen, which is just the TiVo mainboard temp, taken very close to, or even possibly from within the TiVo's CPU. Many threads exist asking where the sensor is. If we've had to guess over several generations of TiVos, I'm guessing it's still a mystery in this one. Also, with the base-model Roamio being a tighter-fitting enclosure, made out of PLASTIC, I do sincerely hope TiVo put the very best fan money can buy in those. Premieres actually used dimples in the bottom of the chassis and thermal-pads to make the case one giant heat-sink for the tuner chips (from the bottom). The only thing cooling the base-model Roamio, is the airflow provided by that one little fan... Take it out of service, and I wonder how long until it cooks to death, or shuts itself down...
Thanks again. The drive itself was in an aluminum shell which was then enclosed in a plastic case. There's a YouTube video explaining the disassembly instructions which illustrate this.

Bottom line, if you had one of these lying around, would YOU use it and save some cash (if times were tight, as they are with me currently) or would you bite the bullet and get a WD green or red because you're more worried it will cause something to fail later on and end up costing you more money?
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:55 PM   #1444
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Thanks again. The drive itself was in an aluminum shell which was then enclosed in a plastic case. There's a YouTube video explaining the disassembly instructions which illustrate this.

Bottom line, if you had one of these lying around, would YOU use it and save some cash (if times were tight, as they are with me currently) or would you bite the bullet and get a WD green or red because you're more worried it will cause something to fail later on and end up costing you more money?
It depends on which Roamio model. If the Roamio is a base model, with a smaller plastic case, I'd either temporarily run it (and always be checking up on it), or wait until I could afford the Green WD (install and not be checking up on it).

If the model is a Plus, or Pro, with more space inside, and a metal case, I'd run it, and likely not worry too much about it. I'd probably just put my hand on top of the case, feel around, and do so every month while dusting the case off, or passing by it, if you don't feel like swapping when you have more funds.

In my shoes, I'd like to test the theory that it will detect a drive-swap if you change to a drive of the same exact capacity, by doing a sector-by-sector DD/dd_rescue type drive clone. I'd want to know if I could run one drive for now, and then clone it to another when I can get another. I forget if anybody has actually tested this scenario (drive clone to equal sized drive of different brand, or even just with a different drive serial number, to see if the TiVo notices in a way that you can't just go on using it, without losing anything).

I just realized I could test that. However, I don't want to give TiVo a heaping helping of logs showing me playing drive swap, with any more drives than I need to (at least until the 90-day warranty is up). I managed to get three Roamios, for about ~$115.00 each after tax. Now I have to sell the things in my signature to be able to afford LT TiVo service for them. So they sit and wait, and I sit and wait.
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:07 PM   #1445
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post

It depends on which Roamio model. If the Roamio is a base model, with a smaller plastic case, I'd either temporarily run it (and always be checking up on it), or wait until I could afford the Green WD (install and not be checking up on it).

If the model is a Plus, or Pro, with more space inside, and a metal case, I'd run it, and likely not worry too much about it. I'd probably just put my hand on top of the case, feel around, and do so every month while dusting the case off, or passing by it, if you don't feel like swapping when you have more funds.....
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I'm not a hard drive expert by any means. I had an old Seagate Barracuda 1.5 TB laying around and I threw it into a base Roamio. It certainly appears to be working fine as suggested in is thread, but do any of you experts foresee any possible future issues?
As I said in my original post on this, it's in a base Roamio. And why would I or anyone want to put a 1.5TB drive into a Pro that already comes stock with a drive that's twice that size?
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:24 PM   #1446
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
It depends on which Roamio model. If the Roamio is a base model, with a smaller plastic case, I'd either temporarily run it (and always be checking up on it), or wait until I could afford the Green WD (install and not be checking up on it).
Unscientific to be sure, but when I installed a WD 2TB AV drive(WD20EURS) in my Roamio Basic I left the top off the unit for a few days as I was curious about heat. I set the unit to record using all 4 tuners and let it run for nearly an hour. I tested various points in the unit for temperature using an infrared thermometer very similar to this one. While I could not check temperatures inside the HDD itself, at no time did I get a reading on the HDD case above 95F(35C). I moved all around the casing itself and they all varied between low 80's(26C) to mid 90's(32C). I then checked around the main board and one of the the hottest points was the main processing unit, although all I could check was the temperature of the heat sink itself - the temp ran into the 115's(46C) to low 120's(49C). The other "hot spot" was a caged/shielded section right by the cable signal input jack, I believe it might have been the tuner, the temps there also ran in the high teens(47C) to low 120's(49C). As the shield is made of reflective material I'm not sure how accurate the readings were.

My take away was that the HDD is not the hottest component in the Roamio, at least externally anyway, and if something were to fail from heat alone it would be something on the MB. Obviously the HDD being a mechanical device and that fact combined with heat could cause the HDD to fail.

I also checked the temps with the cover back on and they read only about 5-8% higher.

I guess my feeling is that I'm not going to worry about the HDD failing due to heat from cramped space or ventilation, it will probably be something else.

For what it's worth anyway, I figured I would add my experience to the conversation.

<updated the post to include Celsius temps along with the Fahrenheit readings.>

Last edited by keenanSR : 12-02-2013 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:29 PM   #1447
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As I said in my original post on this, it's in a base Roamio. And why would I or anyone want to put a 1.5TB drive into a Pro that already comes stock with a drive that's twice that size?
I'm tired, and didn't feel like looking for where your inquiry began (forgot to go to sleep, yeah I do that sometimes...).

I figured you'd ask that exact question. It took 1 minute less than your reply for me to think you'd ask that.

I was just generalizing like as if all drive/Roamio scenarios involved a 3TB drive, with one being a mythical 7200RPM version and others being WD Green/Red drives we know exist in 3TB.

I am either too technical or too simplistic. I never strike the right balance.

Do what you feel like and give it whatever due diligence you believe a new product, in a new form factor, encased in a new (different) material, with so many things different, and one tiny fan to keep it all cool. Yep, go with that.

The alternative is to let everybody else test it out and figure out what not to do, and what tends to go wrong, then buy it and know everything in advance, only to find they're soon coming out with the new TiVo Juliet, with 12 tuners and 6TB.

Green pill, red pill... One gets you inserted back into the matrix, the other a life of running and fighting the machines. It's your choice.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:35 PM   #1448
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For what it's worth anyway, I figured I would add my experience to the conversation.
Thank You. However, as much as I like degrees measures in Fahrenheit, when it comes to spec/data sheets, they always specify in Centigrade/Celsius. Could you change the scale and check things again? Mine lets me switch between them, thankfully. Otherwise, I'll find a conversion method/calculator and translate the numbers after getting some sleep...
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:44 PM   #1449
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Thank You. However, as much as I like degrees measures in Fahrenheit, when it comes to spec/data sheets, they always specify in Centigrade/Celsius. Could you change the scale and check things again? Mine lets me switch between them, thankfully. Otherwise, I'll find a conversion method/calculator and translate the numbers after getting some sleep...
I updated the post to the show both the C and F readings. The next time I pull the cover I'll change the thermometer to readout out in Celsius, I originally got the device for automotive use and have only recently been using it to check temps in equipment rack setups and wanted to see what temps were running versus the ambient temp in the room, hence the Fahrenheit readings.

BTW, a quick and easy converter.
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:50 PM   #1450
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I updated the post to the show both the C and F readings. The next time I pull the cover I'll change the thermometer to readout out in Celsius, I originally got the device for automotive use and have only recently been using it to check temps in equipment rack setups and wanted to see what temps were running versus the ambient temp in the room, hence the Fahrenheit readings.
Me too! I use degrees F for automotive, like making sure the catalytic converter still has working catalyst in it, to find lean/rich cylinders, and degrees C for electronics, then back to degrees F for finding energy wasting leaks around the house, etc.

OK, Laptop off the bed after I post this, and TTY all again when I wake up.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:01 PM   #1451
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Unscientific to be sure, but when I installed a WD 2TB AV drive(WD20EURS) in my Roamio Basic I left the top off the unit for a few days as I was curious about heat. I set the unit to record using all 4 tuners and let it run for nearly an hour. I tested various points in the unit for temperature using an infrared thermometer very similar to this one. While I could not check temperatures inside the HDD itself, at no time did I get a reading on the HDD case above 95F(35C). I moved all around the casing itself and they all varied between low 80's(26C) to mid 90's(32C). I then checked around the main board and one of the the hottest points was the main processing unit, although all I could check was the temperature of the heat sink itself - the temp ran into the 115's(46C) to low 120's(49C). The other "hot spot" was a caged/shielded section right by the cable signal input jack, I believe it might have been the tuner, the temps there also ran in the high teens(47C) to low 120's(49C). As the shield is made of reflective material I'm not sure how accurate the readings were.

My take away was that the HDD is not the hottest component in the Roamio, at least externally anyway, and if something were to fail from heat alone it would be something on the MB. Obviously the HDD being a mechanical device and that fact combined with heat could cause the HDD to fail.

I also checked the temps with the cover back on and they read only about 5-8% higher.

I guess my feeling is that I'm not going to worry about the HDD failing due to heat from cramped space or ventilation, it will probably be something else.

For what it's worth anyway, I figured I would add my experience to the conversation.

<updated the post to include Celsius temps along with the Fahrenheit readings.>
All those temps are very cool. Most electronics are rated for 70 C with the exception of hard drives. The main chip might be rated to at least 80 C.

I wish the hard drive were a little hotter -- 42 C is the ideal temperature for its longevity. But 35 C is pretty good, too.
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:13 PM   #1452
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Just went down and looked up system numbers - I have been copying shows from my old TIVOHD to the (base) Roamio - its been working at that continuously since I put it in the system Friday morning.
Its in a Salamander Cabinet on top of an OPPO Bluray player ...

Anyway, Data page shows MBT 45 - (Mother Board Temp?) if that's temp, it doesn't look bad ...
45C = 113F - seems pretty reasonable!

(Mother Board Temp?)

Quote:
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Did the Amazon $149 price-match at BestBuy Weds (11/27) for a base Roamio with the $50 gift card ... What a great deal!
Installed a Western Digital WD Green WD30EZRX 3TB IntelliPower HDD drive from NewEgg in that brand new Roamio Fri morning.

Works like a champ - THANKS AGAIN!


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Old 12-02-2013, 05:31 PM   #1453
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I'm tired, and didn't feel like looking for where your inquiry began (forgot to go to sleep, yeah I do that sometimes...). I figured you'd ask that exact question. It took 1 minute less than your reply for me to think you'd ask that. I was just generalizing like as if all drive/Roamio scenarios involved a 3TB drive, with one being a mythical 7200RPM version and others being WD Green/Red drives we know exist in 3TB. I am either too technical or too simplistic. I never strike the right balance. Do what you feel like and give it whatever due diligence you believe a new product, in a new form factor, encased in a new (different) material, with so many things different, and one tiny fan to keep it all cool. Yep, go with that. The alternative is to let everybody else test it out and figure out what not to do, and what tends to go wrong, then buy it and know everything in advance, only to find they're soon coming out with the new TiVo Juliet, with 12 tuners and 6TB. Green pill, red pill... One gets you inserted back into the matrix, the other a life of running and fighting the machines. It's your choice.
Thanks again, I'll do that. Sleep tight!
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:45 PM   #1454
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Thanks for the info, folks! I am just setting up my brand-new Roamio Plus after installing a 2TB upgrade (WD20EURS). It's doing a series of updates but things seem to be working fine. It's great to see how easy this is, having upgrading multiple Series 1 and a Series 3 in the past. This is truly a piece of cake
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Old 12-03-2013, 03:17 AM   #1455
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It's great to see how easy this is, having upgrading multiple Series 1 and a Series 3 in the past. This is truly a piece of cake
It's so easy that people are now obsessing over the technical specifications of which 1, 2 or 3 TB drive they could or did use.
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Old 12-03-2013, 03:44 AM   #1456
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All those temps are very cool. Most electronics are rated for 70 C with the exception of hard drives. The main chip might be rated to at least 80 C.

I wish the hard drive were a little hotter -- 42 C is the ideal temperature for its longevity. But 35 C is pretty good, too.
Are you sure that the drive's specs actually say 42C is a "target", rather than the upper threshold?

What you say just doesn't jive with the multiple HDD monitoring apps I've tried, and my laptop, which eats a drive about every 3-8 months.

It's currently running at its lowest (after idling for hours with only the OS load, plus startup apps load) low-load temp of 43C.

Example: Acronis Drive Monitor (free utility) defaults to warn about lower life-expectancy above 42C, and alert at 52C that the drive and data are at risk for permanent damage, and catastrophic failure.

I've had to keep pushing those settings until I stayed at 50C warning, and 60C alert. The design of my laptop gives no air cooling to the drive, and surrounds it tightly with plastic, on all sides. It's a WD Scorpio Blue drive, which is supposed to be considered green, since it's a 5400RPM drive, and it's also AV-rated (which I didn't think was available on Blue-line drives).

It's always been my understanding, that the "sweet spot" is above potential for condensation, but below ~40C.

I'm just looking for a verification that your drive specs actually state the drive isn't optimal below 42C. What mfg & model drive? I do realize that comparing 2.5" laptop drives to 3.5" desktop drives, isn't apples to apples. However, the Acronis tool DOES change its warning/alert temps, to go with different drives. I don't know if Acronis sets that with a database, or the utility pulls them from the drive itself.
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:54 AM   #1457
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Originally Posted by keenanSR View Post
I updated the post to the show both the C and F readings. The next time I pull the cover I'll change the thermometer to readout out in Celsius, I originally got the device for automotive use and have only recently been using it to check temps in equipment rack setups and wanted to see what temps were running versus the ambient temp in the room, hence the Fahrenheit readings.

BTW, a quick and easy converter.
As you said in the earlier post you made, you were measuring off reflective materials, so you were unsure of the accuracy.

You were right to make and state that observation. It tends to be impossible to get a good (accurate) reading from reflective surfaces.

I usually put some black electrical tape on a spot on the reflective items, then remember the laser sight is fixed, so not always accurate at all distances (especially very close ones), then make sure I'm getting a reading from the tape surface, by verifying deviation one direction, then another, changes the reading, as the sensor moves off line of sight of the black tape.

Ultra high-temp spray paint works for reflective surfaces that tape would burn off of for your automotive measurements. I'm always finding new ways to realize how easily the temp sensing guns pay for themselves, or just make life so much easier.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:00 AM   #1458
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Are you sure that the drive's specs actually say 42C is a "target", rather than the upper threshold?

What you say just doesn't jive with the multiple HDD monitoring apps I've tried, and my laptop, which eats a drive about every 3-8 months.

It's currently running at its lowest (after idling for hours with only the OS load, plus startup apps load) low-load temp of 43C.

Example: Acronis Drive Monitor (free utility) defaults to warn about lower life-expectancy above 42C, and alert at 52C that the drive and data are at risk for permanent damage, and catastrophic failure.

I've had to keep pushing those settings until I stayed at 50C warning, and 60C alert. The design of my laptop gives no air cooling to the drive, and surrounds it tightly with plastic, on all sides. It's a WD Scorpio Blue drive, which is supposed to be considered green, since it's a 5400RPM drive, and it's also AV-rated (which I didn't think was available on Blue-line drives).

It's always been my understanding, that the "sweet spot" is above potential for condensation, but below ~40C.

I'm just looking for a verification that your drive specs actually state the drive isn't optimal below 42C. What mfg & model drive? I do realize that comparing 2.5" laptop drives to 3.5" desktop drives, isn't apples to apples. However, the Acronis tool DOES change its warning/alert temps, to go with different drives. I don't know if Acronis sets that with a database, or the utility pulls them from the drive itself.
A hard drive will never list an optimal temperature, just the minimum and maximum temperatures. I was referring to Google's study (see figure 4):

http://static.googleusercontent.com/...k_failures.pdf

(Note that figure 5 seems to contradict figure 4 -- it's possible that temperature has so little effect that other factors are contributing to the results shown in figure 5)

...along with my personal knowledge. It basically comes down to heating up the lubricant in the motors -- the hotter they are, the more viscous the lubricant, which reduces the stress on the motors and increases their reliability. But a hard drive has to adjust its operation based on its current temperature, and there is only so much adjustment that can be done. So their entire range is limited to 55 C. They usually put the low end at 5 C to avoid any moisture issues, so 5 + 55 = 60 C.

A 2.5 " hard drive generally has far less reliability than a 3.5" hard drive. It's pushing the limits on how small a hard drive can be and still work as expected, so any defect will have a greater impact. But more importantly it is usually subjected to all kinds of external forces because it is in a notebook PC, and hard drives absolutely hate to be moved.
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:39 PM   #1459
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All those temps are very cool. Most electronics are rated for 70 C with the exception of hard drives. The main chip might be rated to at least 80 C.

I wish the hard drive were a little hotter -- 42 C is the ideal temperature for its longevity. But 35 C is pretty good, too.
Remember that all these temp readings were on the external surfaces of the components, I have no idea what the internal temp may be in the HDD as I don't believe there's any readout for that in the TiVo software. I suppose I could check a few drives(external surface temp) in my computers and then get the internal temp from some desktop software and compare the two, although I'm not sure when I'd be able to do it, maybe this weekend.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:27 PM   #1460
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Remember that all these temp readings were on the external surfaces of the components, I have no idea what the internal temp may be in the HDD as I don't believe there's any readout for that in the TiVo software. I suppose I could check a few drives(external surface temp) in my computers and then get the internal temp from some desktop software and compare the two, although I'm not sure when I'd be able to do it, maybe this weekend.
Many drives specify internal temp, external temp, and ambient temp (aka airflow temp). You'd think SMART register values would be rather specific, and not have a lot of variance, but that's not always the case.

Internal temp can actually be inside the platter area (inside drive body), but can also just be a sensor on the circuit board facing the drive body.

Ambient temp (or airflow temp) is meant to be an indication of the air around the outside of the whole drive assembly, so it would usually be on the circuit board, facing away from the drive body, and near the edge of the board, where the data/power connections are, and away from any heat generating chips.

External temp can sometimes be same as ambient, or just another sensor on the circuit board, facing away from the drive body, but positioned near the center of the board.

I still see modern drives with only one temp indicator, and when there's only one, it's most likely on the circuit board, facing the drive body.

I've seen drives list "Transient Thermal Incidents", or similarly named registers, where it essentially means a small particle of something momentarily got stuck between a head and platter, spiking the temp momentarily, but by no small amount.

Generally speaking, when measuring the temp of a drive with an infrared heat sensing gun, you will get the highest possible value, off whichever part of the circuit board has the hottest-running chip located on it (if that side of the drive is facing up, so you can take a measurement).

Really, the best tools for these jobs are thermocouple adapters for multimeters where you tape the sensing element to what you want to measure, carefully rout the wires out a hole or gap in the case, and assemble everything, to get "real world" results. Ideally you'd tape several to any spots you would have any concern about, and run a time-lapse measurement.

This can be a safe way to intentionally disable the cooling fan, and see what components and chassis areas exceed acceptable temps first, as well as how quickly they do, then see if any built-in protection shuts it down, or watch it self destruct, while gathering the data.

The point and shoot guns are nice, handy, and fun, but you can't use them with the TiVo assembled, except to measure the temps at the air intakes, and the temp of the exhaust air. Beside that, you can only do open-air measurements, or hurry to take measurements once the lid has been removed and the components are all cooling down already.

BTW: This is a post for everybody/anybody that might find value in it, now, or those that come through in the future.
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:16 PM   #1461
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Remember that all these temp readings were on the external surfaces of the components, I have no idea what the internal temp may be in the HDD as I don't believe there's any readout for that in the TiVo software. I suppose I could check a few drives(external surface temp) in my computers and then get the internal temp from some desktop software and compare the two, although I'm not sure when I'd be able to do it, maybe this weekend.
Also remember that the specified temperatures are just for the ambient air around them. The parts themselves are typically allowed to be hotter.

It still looks like it's plenty cool enough in there, so as long as the power supply can handle a 7200 rpm drive then temperature shouldn't be a concern. So if you happen to have one lying around, you should be able to use it.

If you're buying a new one just for the Roamio, I'd recommend a 5400/5900 rpm drive just to be extra cautious. But manufacturers are hiding which drives are low rpm. We know green and A/V drives are low rpm, but you can also compare the power consumption between different models to figure that out.
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:30 PM   #1462
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Also remember that the specified temperatures are just for the ambient air around them. The parts themselves are typically allowed to be hotter.

It still looks like it's plenty cool enough in there, so as long as the power supply can handle a 7200 rpm drive then temperature shouldn't be a concern. So if you happen to have one lying around, you should be able to use it.

If you're buying a new one just for the Roamio, I'd recommend a 5400/5900 rpm drive just to be extra cautious. But manufacturers are hiding which drives are low rpm. We know green and A/V drives are low rpm, but you can also compare the power consumption between different models to figure that out.
Where that can get sticky, is when/where the ambient temp/airflow temp varies. The TiVo Roamio base is such a case in the worst way. Everything else that produces heat gets the room temp air first, and by the time it gets to the drive, it's heated from cooling the rest. Changes in room temp, plus the workload of the TiVo, and even the placement/elevation of the TiVo in the room, or in a cabinet, can make one person's measurements nearly useless to another, unless a lot of calculating is done on precision measurements, with precision explanation of the measurements.

Also, whether or not the drive specs ambient, or actual drive temperatures, varies by manufacturer, and sometimes differs between different lines/models by the same manufacturer.
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:40 AM   #1463
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Where that can get sticky, is when/where the ambient temp/airflow temp varies. The TiVo Roamio base is such a case in the worst way. Everything else that produces heat gets the room temp air first, and by the time it gets to the drive, it's heated from cooling the rest. Changes in room temp, plus the workload of the TiVo, and even the placement/elevation of the TiVo in the room, or in a cabinet, can make one person's measurements nearly useless to another, unless a lot of calculating is done on precision measurements, with precision explanation of the measurements.

Also, whether or not the drive specs ambient, or actual drive temperatures, varies by manufacturer, and sometimes differs between different lines/models by the same manufacturer.
There are all those variations, yet surprisingly they don't have any significant impact. These variations are small, and the rise in the temperatures of the components is surprisingly linear in commercial and consumer electronics. I get paid to test them in a temperature chamber, so I do, but I can always take the room temperature values and predict what the temperatures of all the internal components will be at the maximum operating temperature, and it is always accurate within 2 C.

The specified ambient (external) operating temperature for previous Tivos was 15 C to 35 C. I'm assuming the Roamio is the same (I can't find it online). There's 25 C of margin for the hard drive, and there's no way the inside of that box gets 25 C hotter than the outside. There's simply too much ventilation. Other users have said their Roamio Basic's reported temperatures in the upper 30s and mid 40s, and have also reported that the PCB side (where the temp. sensor is most likely located) is hotter than the hard drive side.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb....php?p=9814257

Basically, (no pun intended), I'm not worried. Use any hard drive you have on hand, or buy the cheapest one with the best warranty (which will most likely be a "green" drive anyway).
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Old 12-04-2013, 07:12 PM   #1464
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Popped the 3TB WD Red in, and it powered right up - awesome! Oh... wait... I never did back up the season passes in kmttg, did I?

Out comes the screwdriver again...
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:04 PM   #1465
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Those stream ratings are for when the ATA Streaming Command Set extensions are active. They mean nothing, when the host either doesn't support them, and/or doesn't enable them.

The drive makers have you drinking their marketing Kool-Aid, if you think those numbers correlate to a TiVo, which just writes everything as standard data. I wish I had copies to make a time-lapse slide show presentation of how many new applications the drive makers have targeted, since the first AV drives hit the market...

I agree with the fact that a 5400/5900 RPM drive with even a SATA-2 interface, is still far more than a six-tuner consumer TV DVR even needs, mostly due to increased platter storage density, and improved technology to read and write to those high storage density platters.

Why add more heat, and more current draw, than you need to? It also make no sense to put a 7200RPM drive in. Drives that spec-out "streams" in a context that doesn't even apply to TiVo, are just marketing tactics, that some are easily drawn to, but not necessary.

I'm all for getting an AV-rated Green, or an AV-rated Red NAS drive, if it's because the price is right, and a longer warranty period. Otherwise, it's pointless (other than bragging rights over having a drive that can't even use its own potential, crammed into your TiVo).
I know from first hand experience with my Romaio Pro, that is can handle eleven concurrent HD read/write streams. But that is the max I can test. Six recordings, one recordng being played, and streams being sent to four TiVos. And from what I've read the Romaio Pro is using the WD AV-GP drive. So without the active ATA Streaming Command Set extensions it's still handling eleven concurrent HD streams out of the 12 the spec sheet says it can handle.
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:32 PM   #1466
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I know from first hand experience with my Romaio Pro, that is can handle eleven concurrent HD read/write streams. But that is the max I can test. Six recordings, one recordng being played, and streams being sent to four TiVos. And from what I've read the Romaio Pro is using the WD AV-GP drive. So without the active ATA Streaming Command Set extensions it's still handling eleven concurrent HD streams out of the 12 the spec sheet says it can handle.
You should be able to start at least one more stream - a transfer from/to computer.
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:01 PM   #1467
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I know from first hand experience with my Romaio Pro, that is can handle eleven concurrent HD read/write streams. But that is the max I can test. Six recordings, one recordng being played, and streams being sent to four TiVos. And from what I've read the Romaio Pro is using the WD AV-GP drive. So without the active ATA Streaming Command Set extensions it's still handling eleven concurrent HD streams out of the 12 the spec sheet says it can handle.
I get what you are saying, and where you are coming from.

I never said that many streams weren't possible. I just meant the advertised stream specs are important for people/entities that use the ATA Streaming Command Set extensions, which the Roamio, and all TiVos that came before it do not use.

TiVo streams without using those extensions, and apparently it still works fine for TiVo, based on your observations (and my own research). If TiVo used the extensions, non-AV drives would not work at all. We know that they do.

You might ask "How do I know for sure, that even with an AV drive installed the Roamio doesn't use them, just because a non-AV drive works?". In a team effort, with a couple other very qualified people, we came to the conclusion that it's not a matter of a non-AV drive working by being in some sort of "compatible" or "fallback" mode, TiVo just hasn't had a need to use the extensions, so they aren't going to rewrite their code for something they don't need.

It might very well be possible that due to the way TiVo writes the data, even though it's written as any old data, their method could yield an equal, or greater number of streams, than what the drive specs say is supported using the extensions.

I never meant to come across as argumentative when I replied to your original post talking about stream specs. I just like to share what I know, especially when I've put a lot of time and effort into gaining such knowledge.

My posts on the subject were intended as an augmentation to your posts, not a disagreement.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:16 PM   #1468
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Popped the 3TB WD Red in, and it powered right up - awesome! ..
Did the same thing with the same drive, but I first ran the setup on the original drive to make sure all was well with the Roamio+ and the setup updated the software, normal, when I then put in the new 3Tb red drive the TiVo I did not have to update the software again so I guess the software is updated in the ROM on the MB, did not know that.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:04 PM   #1469
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I have a precision screw driver set with small philips and flat heads. Can those be used or just the T8 and T10 to open up the plus?
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:27 AM   #1470
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I have a precision screw driver set with small philips and flat heads. Can those be used or just the T8 and T10 to open up the plus?
For the small cost of a T10 and T15 don't try anything but the T tools.
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