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Old 10-31-2013, 11:53 AM   #1
Toshirick
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S3 Motherboard ?

I have 2 Tivo series 3 (648) that the hard drives failed within a few months of each other and I imaged 2 new drives at different times WD AV-GP 2 TB AV Video Hard Drive WD20EURS and one of the series 3 works great.
I also replaced the bulging caps on the power supply boards. One of the series 3 tivo was stuck in the powering up screen, new problem. I tried unplugging the fan and the tivo works with no problems, so i bought a new fan and tried it and still stuck in powering up screen and reboots. I checked the voltages and they are good.
What I did was connected the fan directly to the power supply board 7.5 volts pins bypassing the mother board and everything is working. I have used it for about 2 months and it's been working (No Problems).

Do you think it's the power supply board or the mother board?

Thank you Rick
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Old 10-31-2013, 01:23 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Toshirick View Post
I have 2 Tivo series 3 (648) that the hard drives failed within a few months of each other and I imaged 2 new drives at different times WD AV-GP 2 TB AV Video Hard Drive WD20EURS and one of the series 3 works great.
I also replaced the bulging caps on the power supply boards. One of the series 3 tivo was stuck in the powering up screen, new problem. I tried unplugging the fan and the tivo works with no problems, so i bought a new fan and tried it and still stuck in powering up screen and reboots. I checked the voltages and they are good.
What I did was connected the fan directly to the power supply board 7.5 volts pins bypassing the mother board and everything is working. I have used it for about 2 months and it's been working (No Problems).

Do you think it's the power supply board or the mother board?

Thank you Rick
Suggest you put a meter on the 2 pin header on the motherboard designed to run the fan and see what you get there.

As far as I know, the 7.5 is only for the OLED display, and the fan header is fed from the 12 V line, although there's a pulse-width switching circuit in there to vary fan speed.

If having a load on that header (and therefore a load on the 12 V rail) makes or breaks things, that indicates a fault in the 12V section of the power supply and the most likely cause is a bad cap or 2 or 3.

I'll be back this evening with a cap list for the 648 of which is on which rail.
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Old 10-31-2013, 02:04 PM   #3
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I will check the 12 volt line without the fan connected. If I connect the fan to the motherboard the hard drive does not spin up at all and the tivo goes into the reboot over and over.


Thanks unitron! I will check the 12v with a meter and report back.

The fan is connected to the 7.5 volt directly on the power supply board and operates the fan at one speed, but it appears to keep the Tivo in the normal operating temperature so far.



Thanks again!
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:18 PM   #4
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I will check the 12 volt line without the fan connected. If I connect the fan to the motherboard the hard drive does not spin up at all and the tivo goes into the reboot over and over.


Thanks unitron! I will check the 12v with a meter and report back.

The fan is connected to the 7.5 volt directly on the power supply board and operates the fan at one speed, but it appears to keep the Tivo in the normal operating temperature so far.



Thanks again!
With the fan disconnected, backprobe the plug that goes into the motherboard to check the +12 V (yellow wire), but check both pins of the fan header separately. One should probably read 0 Volts because it'll be grounded, and the other one should read somewhere between 0 and whatever the yellow wire reads, because it'll be the feed from the yellow wire taken and chopped up, switched on and off really fast, so that the fan sees a shot of full 12 V to overcome mechanical inertia, but the average voltage is lower and the fan goes from powered to coasting a few dozen times a second, or maybe a few hundred.

Unless the circuit is set up so that one pin is always 12 V and the other one is being connected to and disconnected from ground to do the switching, instead.

But see what both measure with the meter's negative lead grounded to the metal chassis on the side away from the power supply.

Regardless of whether the low side or the high side of the fan is switched, it sounds like the extra load on the +12 Volt line draws just enough extra current to make the voltage sag just enough to cause mischief, so I'm suspecting bad caps on the 12 V rail whether they "look" bad or not.

The 648 supply has 2 caps that I know of on the 12 V output:

Yellow wire:
C702 16V 470uF
C701 25V 2200uF *

(*since I bought this 648 used, it's not impossible that the 25V cap is a replacement and that it only needs to be 16V rated, so if your C701 is only a 16, don't worry about trying to find a 25--just don't go below 16)

EDIT TO ADD:

Got my hands on another 648 and checked the power supply and C701 is definitely a 25V

END EDIT

Those are most likely to be the culprits.

The other caps that might need replacing on "a" 648 board (but not necessarily yours) are:

7.5V
Gray wire:
C603 16V 470uF
C601 16V 2200uF

5V
Red wire:
C503 10V 3300uF
C502 10V 3300uF
C504 10V 3300uF
C501 10V 3300uF

3.3V
Orange wire:
C403 6.3V 1000uF


and there are two others that seem to be further back upstream in the switching part--

C401 6.3V 2200uF
C402 6.3V 2200uF

The big cap rated at 200 Volts and 470uF should be just fine, 'cause it doesn't have to work as hard, and the little caps that aren't near the heat sink(s) should be ignorable as well.

One other thing you could try to see what happens would be to disconnect the hard drive and plug the fan back on the header (after disconnecting it from the 7.5 pin) and see if the TiVo boots up to the welcome screen and just sits there without blinking or rebooting. Just in case there's something from out of left field going on with the fan when it sees a full 12 Volts.
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:34 PM   #5
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Unitron,

Thanks I will order the caps C701 and C702 and then take the the Tivo apart and check the voltages and the other items you recommended and let you know.

Thanks I really appreciate the direction in which to start and all the help.

Rick
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:47 PM   #6
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Unitron,

Thanks I will order the caps C701 and C702 and then take the the Tivo apart and check the voltages and the other items you recommended and let you know.

Thanks I really appreciate the direction in which to start and all the help.

Rick
It's strongly recommended to review all the caps in teh power supply and replace any/all that might be failing/bulging and any that are the same manufacturer of a failing cap, in general replace them all.

It's no longer a matter of if the caps in an S3 will go bad, it's a matter of when.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:47 PM   #7
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It's strongly recommended to review all the caps in teh power supply and replace any/all that might be failing/bulging and any that are the same manufacturer of a failing cap, in general replace them all.

It's no longer a matter of if the caps in an S3 will go bad, it's a matter of when.
What she said.

A couple or 3 days ago I was also taking note of the caps on an S3 HD supply which I'd already brought back from the dead by replacing two caps about a year ago, and found a third which had started "roundtopping", so you can keep fixing it over and over, or do it once and be done.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:02 PM   #8
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I replaced all the caps including the large one 200 volt 470 uf. The only 3 caps that I have not changed are C220 47uf 50 volts, C227 47uf 25volt and C306 2.2uf 50 volt. I did not order those 3. Tivo did the same thing after changing caps. Switched power supply into the other S3 that I own that is working. The S3 that was working and the power supply that I changed all the caps and did the same thing as the other tivo unplug fan and it works. Exact problem as the other S3. Took the good power supply and put it in the tivo that wasn't working correctly and it works with the fan plugged in.

Now I know its not the mother board

Checked voltages 12.24 volts, 7.55 volts and 5.22 volts.

Checked voltage on the Fan pins and it was 12.22. Same voltage if I went to case ground.

I will order those three caps and change them and give it a try.

Thanks
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:01 AM   #9
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I replaced all the caps including the large one 200 volt 470 uf. The only 3 caps that I have not changed are C220 47uf 50 volts, C227 47uf 25volt and C306 2.2uf 50 volt. I did not order those 3. Tivo did the same thing after changing caps. Switched power supply into the other S3 that I own that is working. The S3 that was working and the power supply that I changed all the caps and did the same thing as the other tivo unplug fan and it works. Exact problem as the other S3. Took the good power supply and put it in the tivo that wasn't working correctly and it works with the fan plugged in.

Now I know its not the mother board

Checked voltages 12.24 volts, 7.55 volts and 5.22 volts.

Checked voltage on the Fan pins and it was 12.22. Same voltage if I went to case ground.

I will order those three caps and change them and give it a try.

Thanks

Let me see if I followed that.

Two more or less identical TiVos, but on one (TiVo A) having the fan plugged onto the fan header on the motherboard causes problems.

Recapped power supply A on TiVo A.

Problem remains.

Putting power supply B in TiVo A fixes TiVo A, but putting power supply A into TiVo B moves the fan problem to TiVo B?

Fans were NOT swapped between TiVos?
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Old 11-17-2013, 12:10 PM   #10
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unitron,

Yes exactly! I swapped fans also. Same problem.

Rick
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:20 PM   #11
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unitron,

Yes exactly! I swapped fans also. Same problem.

Rick
So the fan problem follows the power supply, regardless of which fan is in the equation?
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:04 PM   #12
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Yes. I feel better knowing it's not the motherboard.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:44 AM   #13
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Yes. I feel better knowing it's not the motherboard.
What are you reading on the orange wire on those power supplies when they're connected to a motherboard and hard drive and fan and plugged in?

Check both.

The fan is not a huge current draw, so if hooking it up is the tipping point, there's still something wrong with that one power supply.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:10 PM   #14
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Unitron,

I will check and let you know.

Thanks-Rick
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Old 11-23-2013, 11:38 PM   #15
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Unitron

I checked all the voltages with the fan plugged in.

12.48 volts

3.29 volts

5.05 volts

7.59 volts

I have not checked the voltages on the good power supply.

Thanks Rick
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:08 AM   #16
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Unitron

I checked all the voltages with the fan plugged in.

12.48 volts

3.29 volts

5.05 volts

7.59 volts

I have not checked the voltages on the good power supply.

Thanks Rick
Those readings are within spec, so I'm stumped.

The symptom, add fan to power supply's total electrical load, get failure, implies that the fan is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Can you come up with a SATA data cable to temporarily replace the one that's part of the combo cable and power the hard drive from an external source?

Apply power to the hard drive, then, with the fan not connected, power up the TiVo, let it boot all the way, then plug the fan onto the motherboard, and see what happens.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:42 PM   #17
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Unitron,

I have a series 2 fan laying around so I connected it and the tivo worked. Wrong size fan, so I ordered a correct size new fan from weeknees and tried it and it work . I dont understand because I used the fan from the other S3 tivo and it did not work. Both tivos have fans that i purchased from amazon.

I wanted to say thank you for all your help.

Rick
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:19 AM   #18
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Unitron,

I have a series 2 fan laying around so I connected it and the tivo worked. Wrong size fan, so I ordered a correct size new fan from weeknees and tried it and it work . I dont understand because I used the fan from the other S3 tivo and it did not work. Both tivos have fans that i purchased from amazon.

I wanted to say thank you for all your help.

Rick
Okay, armed with all of that information, I've come up with the only possible diagnosis of your problem.


You have gremlins.
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Old 11-30-2013, 01:14 AM   #19
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Nicely said. It makes no sense.

Thanks again!
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Old 11-30-2013, 11:20 AM   #20
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...It makes no sense...
Your symptoms or my post?
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Old 11-30-2013, 01:07 PM   #21
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My tivo symptoms make no sense.

You were a big help and I appreciate all your help.

Thanks again-Rick
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:13 AM   #22
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Thanks for sharing stuff..I'm also thinking to purchase caps C701 and C702..Waiting more updates from your end.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:24 AM   #23
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I am possibly having a similar problem. I have two identical series 3 (OLED). One works great, the other is stuck in a reboot loop. I swapped the power supply & hard drive from working TiVo A into non-working TiVo B and none of it worked. TiVo B continued to be in a reboot loop. I even had BOTH Tivo power supplies checked out a local repair shop. One buldging cap was replaced on both and all others were tested and are OK.

I am at a total loss at what else it could be, but I see from here that removing the fan (connected to motherboard) from a rebooting TiVo helped solved the problem. I am going to try this. If this does indeed help solve the problem, there any way of installing a fan in the TiVo that can then be somehow plugged into a different source other than the TiVo's equipment? In other words, a fan of some kind that can be plugged into a regular outlet.
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:37 AM   #24
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I am possibly having a similar problem. I have two identical series 3 (OLED). One works great, the other is stuck in a reboot loop. I swapped the power supply & hard drive from working TiVo A into non-working TiVo B and none of it worked. TiVo B continued to be in a reboot loop. I even had BOTH Tivo power supplies checked out a local repair shop. One buldging cap was replaced on both and all others were tested and are OK.

I am at a total loss at what else it could be, but I see from here that removing the fan (connected to motherboard) from a rebooting TiVo helped solved the problem. I am going to try this. If this does indeed help solve the problem, there any way of installing a fan in the TiVo that can then be somehow plugged into a different source other than the TiVo's equipment? In other words, a fan of some kind that can be plugged into a regular outlet.
If leaving the fan unplugged seems to solve the problem, then either the fan can somehow momentarily draw enough current to drag down the +12 V line enough to reset the CPU, or there's something wrong with the fan controller circuitry on the motherboard that drags down the +12 V line, and not having the fan hooked up keeps from completing a circuit that needs to be completed for the fan controller's problem to manifest itself.

Take the fan from the 648 that's not auto-rebooting and hook it to the re-booting board, and see if it still reboots. If it does, then it's the motherboard's fan circuitry.

If not, it's the fan previously connected.
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:13 AM   #25
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.... and not having the fan hooked up keeps from completing a circuit that needs to be completed for the fan controller's problem to manifest itself.
If this is the case, is it still possible to have the TiVo fully operate without this fan connected at all to the motherboard? Then maybe find some other solution for cooling the unit? Or will this not really work? I only ask cause the previous poster was saying how when they had the fan unhooked, the unit worked


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Take the fan from the 648 that's not auto-rebooting and hook it to the re-booting board, and see if it still reboots. If it does, then it's the motherboard's fan circuitry.

If not, it's the fan previously connected.

OK, I will try this. If its the fan, can I use a fan from a TiVO HD (TCD652160) in this Series 3 (OLED)? I actually have two spare TiVO HDs in a closet that are fully working, but not subscribed to & hoping I could use its fan. Or is it like their power supplies and totally incompatible?

If its the motherboard's fan circuitry, is there a way to fix this?

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Old 12-20-2013, 12:43 PM   #26
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If this is the case, is it still possible to have the TiVo fully operate without this fan connected at all to the motherboard? Then maybe find some other solution for cooling the unit? Or will this not really work? I only ask cause the previous poster was saying how when they had the fan unhooked, the unit worked





OK, I will try this. If its the fan, can I use a fan from a TiVO HD (TCD652160) in this Series 3 (OLED)? I actually have two spare TiVO HDs in a closet that are fully working, but not subscribed to & hoping I could use its fan. Or is it like their power supplies and totally incompatible?

If its the motherboard's fan circuitry, is there a way to fix this?

Forgive me, but I'm not currently in a position to open up a 648 and a 652 and compare the fans, but take a tape measure and compare the screw spacing from the outside back of the cases. If it's the same you should be able to do the swap.

Once you remove the fans from the chassis you should be able to see on the label how many Amperes, or milliAmperes, each draws, or maybe it'll be rated in Watts, and if the two figures are fairly close in value there shouldn't be any problem swapping on for the other.

If one's in A and the other in W, multiply the A by 12 V to get W.

In other words, for DC, Volts times Amps equals Watts, or electromotive force (i.e., difference in potential) times current equals power.

If it's the fan circuitry on the motherboard, it might be fixable but without a schematic or service manual (a couple of mythical creatures where TiVos are concerned, it would seem), it would be what a repair shop would label "beyond economical repair" due to the time necessary to try to figure out which components on the board are or are not part of that circuit.

Easier to wire the fan straight to the +12V supply and let it run full speed all the time.

I'll look around for a source of 2 pin headers with attached wires that can be connected to the power supply and then the fan just plugged onto the header.


And actually the 648 and 652 power supplies themselves are almost compatible.

You can't risk connecting a 648 supply to a 652 motherboard because no one's yet bothered to see what the unneccessary gray wire 7.5 V of the 648 supply would connect to when plugged into a 652 board--in other words, would it short to something.

But the 652 supply should run the 648 board except for the OLED display which, as I understand it, the gray wire feeds.

Except for that gray wire the pinout of the plug is the same, and the current ratings of the various output voltages is close enough for short tests.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:28 AM   #27
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OK, I ran out of options for this S3 (OLED) & more or less gave up. From a fully functional identical S3, I tried swapping power supplies, hard drives, and fans. Even totally re-imaged a fully functional drive in a PC & with WinMFS. NONE of this worked and the S3 in question could never get past the "Welcome, Powering up" screen and was still in a reboot loop.

I was gonna cut my losses & put it up on ebay thinking maybe someone else would have more knowledge & some luck with it. Then put that money toward either a Roamio or mini (since I have a 4-tuner premiere). However, I decided to give TiVo a call and see if they could maybe offer me something for it and/or another solution. Well, after the initial customer service rep past me on to a technical rep that could possibly help with this problem, they then had me do some test and nothing work (& I knew they wouldn't).

In the end, they basically offered me a 500GB 2-tuner refurb TiVo Premiere for $79 and also transferred the lifetime subscription from this non-working S3 to the new Premiere at no additional cost. Now, I do have to mail this old S3 back to them (at their expense) and had to pay a $100 deposit up front. I will get the $100 back when I mail the non-working S3 back into them.

I was a little skeptical and kept asking questions to verify it and make sure I understood it all correctly. I jumped on it & sure enough, a few days later I got confirmation that the 2-tuner premiere was on its way from TX. I also looked in my account and the old S3 service number had been replaced by the new one that was on its way. It was still listed as lifetime service too.

Now, I think part of the catch here might have been the fact that I got this S3 on a $99 lifetime back in May 2013. I started having this issue probably in about August 2013 so I am sure they could also see that it hadn't connected to their servers since then and was essentially only on lifetime for about 3 months.

The rep told me something about since it had been less than a year, they were able to do this complete swap. Whatever & I didn't complain. At first I was gonna think about it, but I was afraid if I called back to try and get this deal again, I would get another rep who wouldn't offer it & tell me that was an error so I jumped on it right there. I figured worse comes to worse and I could sell it on ebay or Craigslist and easily make back the cost.

I got it and it works good. I'll be packing up the broken S3 here & sending it to them, but not without some level of remorse as my other S3 is still working good and I still love them with their front display that shows the clock & recording status. I see other posts here and how Series 3s seem to now be dropping like flies so I wonder how much longer I will truly have with this other beloved & working S3 (OLED). Oh well.

Last edited by buscuitboy : 01-09-2014 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:56 AM   #28
unitron
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bb, when you got the $99 lifetime deal on that S3, was it in conjunction with purchasing a new S4 or S5?

I'm curious as to why they'd want that S3 bad enough to pay shipping (which is about the worth of an S3 with a bad mobo), and I wonder if they got confused about what model they're getting back.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:02 AM   #29
buscuitboy
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
bb, when you got the $99 lifetime deal on that S3, was it in conjunction with purchasing a new S4 or S5?

I'm curious as to why they'd want that S3 bad enough to pay shipping (which is about the worth of an S3 with a bad mobo), and I wonder if they got confused about what model they're getting back.

Nope, I didn't purchase any other hardware (Roamio and/or new S4). back in about March 2013, I basically had initially subscribed to this S3 on a monthly basis for about 2 months. Then called to cancel and they offered me the $99 lifetime right there. I took it and then 3 months later this S3 went on the fritz on me. Not sure if it mattered then or now, but I do also have about 4 other TiVos on my account as well (Series 3s and some Premieres)

The rep seemed to indicate to me (whether an error or not), that since the lifetime on the S3 had been less than a year (& maybe saw that it was only working for about 3 months in lifetime mode), this is why they were able to do it. I thought the same thing in that maybe he didn't truly realize it was a Series 3 that was in question here and only took note of the dates in question & billing history that are listed on my account. Therefore, possibly made an error, but I'm not complaining.

Back in May 2013 when I got the $99 lifetime, I remember them clearly stating that lifetimes are not transferable at all & I never expected this to take place. Again, maybe they made an exception here since lifetime was basically only active & useable for 3 months, but who knows what would have happen if I thought about it and called back. Hence the reason I jumped on this offer right away and took it on the spot.

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