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Old 11-29-2013, 09:41 AM   #1
jbernardis
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series 3 no longer sees HME applications

I have 2 series 3 TiVos (OLED) on my home network. Both work fine in all respects except one. One of the units no longer see my HME applications. I am running wmcbrines pyhme server, and have published two of my own applications under thus: pytivo video server which adds push functionality to oytivo, and jukebox - an mp3 player.

Both of these apps work fine on the other TiVo, and they also work for many other users who downloaded them from github. They were working for me too until several weeks ago - I can't pinpoint the exact time.

I have tried rebooting the TiVo as well as my fileserver where the apps reside. I have turned the "enable home networks" option off and back on. I haverified the MAK. Everything seems to be configured correctly, but my apps do not show up on the menu. I have added the file servers IP address manually to the TiVo, but it can't find any servers there.

I'm not finished with my attempts to restore service, but I was hoping to get some ideas for what to try next.

Thanks.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:29 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by jbernardis View Post
I have added the file servers IP address manually to the TiVo, but it can't find any servers there.
That only works (for HME) if the server is running on port 80.

It sounds like Zeroconf packets aren't getting through to the TiVo.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:30 AM   #3
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If you haven't already, you might try assigning the Tivo(s) a static IP address (or changing back to DHCP if you are using a static IP address) and reboot your router.

Check/replace the Ethernet cable, or (temporarily) hard wire the Tivo if you are using wireless.

I wouldn't consider it impossible that a power supply problem could cause this issue.
It's probably about time for you to check the power supplies of your Tivos anyway, as a precaution due to the capacitor plague issues that S2 and S3 Tivos have. Nip it in the bud so you can plan for the downtime, instead of having to rush through when it (eventually) fails.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:18 PM   #4
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One other piece of information - pytivo works just fine. I can see the shares that are published there, I can pull video, and from my PC I can push video. I can also find and play individual songs.

I agree that it sounds like zeroconf packets aren't making it through. This is a wired network with relatively new cat6 cabling and gigabit switching equipment.

There is no microsoft operating system involved here. The pyhme server is running on my netgear readynas file server which is debian based. So I don't think it's a firewall issue of any kind.

I'll keep digging.
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Old 11-30-2013, 08:26 AM   #5
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You didn't mention checking the power supplies.

Don't be like another poster, who went through all kinds of troubleshooting and (at first) ignored everyone who was telling him to check his power supply. After all was said and done he finally checked his power supply, and sure enough that was his issue.
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Old 11-30-2013, 10:34 AM   #6
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I don't know what you mean by "checking" the power supply. Certainly I can replace it, but I'd hate to do that unnecessarily, and I'm not to the point yet of throwing things against the wall to see what sticks. The unit has no other quirks or behavior that I would associate with a power supply issue, so although it's not impossible that that's the issue, I'd prefer to eliminate higher probability items first.

There's a logical explanation behind this, I haven't figured it out yet.
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Old 11-30-2013, 11:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbernardis View Post
I don't know what you mean by "checking" the power supply. Certainly I can replace it, but I'd hate to do that unnecessarily, and I'm not to the point yet of throwing things against the wall to see what sticks. The unit has no other quirks or behavior that I would associate with a power supply issue, so although it's not impossible that that's the issue, I'd prefer to eliminate higher probability items first.

There's a logical explanation behind this, I haven't figured it out yet.
The logical explanation is that Series 2 and Series 3 TiVos are at considerable risk of power supply problems caused by "capacitor plague" (go read the wikipedia article), and those problems can cause all sorts of strange symptoms, and the chance of bad caps in the power supply being at the root of S2 and S3 problems is so great that the wisest course is to verify that the power supply is not the problem before troubleshooting anything else about the TiVo, because if you haven't eliminated the possibility of the power supply being at the root of your difficulties, you can't trust the results of any other troubleshooting or resultant diagnosis.

Although as long as you have it opened and your #10 Torx bit handy, you should go ahead and hook the hard drive to a PC and run the manufacturer's diagnostic software long test on it as well (which you should also do with a new drive before putting it into service in a TiVo or anything else).

Leave the drive on the bracket and take the bracket out.
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Old 11-30-2013, 01:15 PM   #8
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One other piece of information - pytivo works just fine.
Yeah, probably because pyTivo sends out old-style TiVo beacons (broadcast) in addition to the Zeroconf announcements (multicast), while HME is normally Zeroconf-only.

If it isn't an issue with the network blocking multicast, it could just be the new-style beacon service failing on that TiVo. I've had that happen a number of times. Usually, restarting the TiVo fixes it.
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:20 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by jbernardis View Post
I don't know what you mean by "checking" the power supply.
What I mean by "checking" the power supply, is to open the Tivo and look at the power supply with your eyeballs.
You'll want to "check" for any bulging/domed capacitors, that look like this:



If you don't see any bulging, it is still recommended that you use a voltmeter to read the output voltages,
as a capacitor can be bad without showing any physical signs.

Once you determine that the voltages coming from the power supply are within specs,
you can then turn your troubleshooting efforts elsewhere.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bad capacitor.jpg (54.0 KB, 77 views)
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:36 AM   #10
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This power supply stuff is nice and all, but highly unlikely to be relevant. I don't think it should be anybody's starting point in debugging something that looks like a network/software issue. If all else fails, maybe then consider cracking open your TiVo.
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Old 12-01-2013, 06:11 PM   #11
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This power supply stuff is nice and all, but highly unlikely to be relevant. I don't think it should be anybody's starting point in debugging something that looks like a network/software issue. If all else fails, maybe then consider cracking open your TiVo.
It's just that S2s and S3s are so very likely to have power supply problems and that those problems often cause strange symptoms that it can't hurt to check.

Just because the power supply is not the source of the problem doesn't mean that it isn't starting to go bad anyway.

As for networking problems, giving everything on the network that doesn't leave the house a fixed IP address almost certainly couldn't hurt, and in many cases it has helped, and that would be my first non-power supply related move if nothing had been changed and network problems suddenly appeared.
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:11 PM   #12
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I kind of agree with wmcbrine here. In my experience, and I work with computers professionally, power supply issues are either total - the system just won't come up, or sporadic - symptoms totally erratic and unpredictable. To attribute a very specific behavior that happens 100% of the time to a power supply seems like grasping at straws.

Although at this point, I don't know what else to do. I've rebooted everything multiple times. I've logged on to my router and revoked the DHCP address to force it to refresh. One thing I did notice, according to my router, both tivos had a UDP session open on port 5353 to 224.0.0.251:5353. The readynas also had the same session open. I don't know what 224.0.0.251 is, but port 5353 is the port used by pyhme.

I think I'm going to try a static IP. I won't have a chance for a few days.
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Old 12-03-2013, 07:18 PM   #13
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224.0.0.251 is a multicast address.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:20 PM   #14
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I kind of agree with wmcbrine here. In my experience, and I work with computers professionally, power supply issues are either total - the system just won't come up, or sporadic - symptoms totally erratic and unpredictable. To attribute a very specific behavior that happens 100% of the time to a power supply seems like grasping at straws...
Grasping at straws?

More like playing the odds.

S2s and S3s have a much, much greater chance of falling victim to "capacitor plague" than other bits of consumer electronics selected at random.

So 100% of the time? No.

A he11 of a lot closer to 100% than other stuff? Yes.

And "sporadic - symptoms totally erratic and unpredictable"?

That's your clue that it probably is the power supply going bad in the case of S2s and S3s.


All of the lifetimed S2s and S3s I own I got (relatively) cheap because of the power supplies going bad.
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Old 12-03-2013, 09:33 PM   #15
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And "sporadic - symptoms totally erratic and unpredictable"?

That's your clue that it probably is the power supply going bad in the case of S2s and S3s.
It would be, if he'd said that's what was happening. But it isn't.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:12 PM   #16
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It would be, if he'd said that's what was happening. But it isn't.
It's a direct quote from jbernardis's post to which I was replying.

It may not pertain to the problem with his or her TiVo, but it was part of the hypothetical they raised.
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:14 AM   #17
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A direct out-of-context quote. Reading comprehension fail.
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Old 12-04-2013, 10:05 AM   #18
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In my experience, and I work with computers professionally, power supply issues are either total - the system just won't come up, or sporadic - symptoms totally erratic and unpredictable. To attribute a very specific behavior that happens 100% of the time to a power supply seems like grasping at straws.
The anecdotal evidence in this forum disagrees with you.
Of all the issues I have read about that were fixed with a new/refurbished power supply, most of them had one specific symptom.
It was either the Tivo constantly rebooting, one of the tuners not working, Tivo would not boot up with the cable card but would without it, etc.
There are some cases of multiple symptoms, but they are way in the minority.

Quote:
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Although at this point, I don't know what else to do.
....
I think I'm going to try a static IP. I won't have a chance for a few days.
Do that. I hope it works. But in case it doesn't ...
Unless you have some aversion to opening the Tivo, I don't know why you're being so persistent that it couldn't possibly be the power supply.
I can only think that you must have the Tivo crammed tight in an entertainment center where you have to crawl behind it to unplug all the cables and such...

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Grasping at straws?

More like playing the odds.
Yep. This is why we're being so persistent in checking the power supply.
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:35 PM   #19
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When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:11 PM   #20
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When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When that nail sticks up and catches the edge of your shoe sole and trips you almost everytime you walk by, eventually you figure out it would be a good idea to get a nail set and go ahead and drive it slightly below flush with the floor and only then look to see if any of your tripping was due to someone stretching piano wire across your path.

If it's an S1, S4, or S5, I'll do a quick scan for piano wire, but if it's an S2 or S3 I'm reaching for the Torx driver and the voltmeter.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:35 AM   #21
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When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
What does the OP have to lose? Oh wait. More time and trouble trying to troubleshoot network problems that probably don't exist.

Whatever. I'll shut up now. I couldn't care less if the OP checks his power supply or not. No skin off my back....
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Old 12-28-2013, 06:55 PM   #22
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The current status of all of this is that it is now working. About a week ago, I changed to a static IP address, but it had no apparent effect. So earlier today, I had planned to change my network topology a bit by adding a switch between the wireless access point/router, and then moving the TiVo to that switch - so it was no longer going through the WAP. Before I did so, I took one last look at the system and my apps were in the menu!!!

I can't explain it. My only thought is that I didn't give the static IP change enough time to propagate through the network. I'll be keeping a closer eye on it in case it recurs, but for now I am happy.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:20 PM   #23
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The current status of all of this is that it is now working. About a week ago, I changed to a static IP address, but it had no apparent effect. So earlier today, I had planned to change my network topology a bit by adding a switch between the wireless access point/router, and then moving the TiVo to that switch - so it was no longer going through the WAP. Before I did so, I took one last look at the system and my apps were in the menu!!!

I can't explain it. My only thought is that I didn't give the static IP change enough time to propagate through the network. I'll be keeping a closer eye on it in case it recurs, but for now I am happy.
I'm pleased that your problem appears to be resolved.
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:29 PM   #24
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Actually there is more to report in this saga.

Soon after I noticed the applications were back after the static IP address change, they were gone again. In a way I was relieved because I couldn't explain how a dynamic address would have caused this problem.

Shortly thereafter, the tivo started behaving oddly in other ways, so I thought perhaps there was something to this power supply issue. I opened up the case and found some bulging capacitors, so I put together an order to Digikey for a complete capacitor set for both of my Tivos (about $20 total) and a few days later when I got them, I replaced the capacitors, but still the applications were missing.

So next I tried my original thought - the one it turns out I should have tried first. My main network is cat6 cabling throughout the house with the hub in the basement where I have my cable modem and router. There is also a network switch in the same location because of the number of runs I have. One of those runs goes to my tv/stereo cabinet where it is terminated in my wireless access point. The wireless access point also includes an internal gigabit switch, and this is where I have my tivo, blu-ray, and AV receiver connected.

I noticed that for some reason, the wireless access point was indicating that it had a gigabit connection to the tivo. I'm not sure why, because the tivo is of course only a 100Mbit device, and the cable was cat5, but everything seemed to work until now.

What I did was to move all of the wires out of the WAP and into a gigabit switch, and then home the WAP itself to this new switch - basically taking the switch within the WAP out of the picture. The tivo immediately came up as a 100mbit device, and all of the apps re-appeared and are still there several days later.

I'm guessing that the switch portion of the WAP has failed. I'm glad to be once again using the apps I developed.
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