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Old 10-20-2013, 10:34 AM   #31
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The V-Box Cat's Eye ATSC tuners were excellent at dealing with multi-path interference. They were available in both USB and PCI versions. You can probably still find them on ebay once in a while dirt cheap.

I've got several of each I'm no longer using if you're interested. Drop me a PM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:46 AM   #32
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I am OTA only, no cable available in my area.

My first DVR was the Sony DHG series, but when Rovi pulled the plug on TVGOS last year, that became a boat anchor.

So I put together a HTPC with Win7 WMC and 2 SiliconDust HDHomeRun ATSC dual tuners. Having 9TB of storage was nice. But living in the boonies, the OTA signals from Seattle are not excellent, and I found that the HDHomeRun tuners were not good at handling multi-path signals, so I had to look for an alternative.

Just in time to discover the Roamio, whose ATSC tuners do a fine job of locking to multi-path signals. This is the first Tivo product that came close to offering what I need.

A bit OT for this topic, I guess, but for me the problem is finding a DVR that has ATSC tuners, which are becomming uncommon; so the 4 tuner Roamio is a welcome find. So for me, the only two contenders are Tivo and HTPC (if I could get satisfactory tuners). But the WMC software is annoying and prone to crashing (task manager to the rescue a couple times a week), so even though its free, its still a hassle.
Same experience here, my Roamio does a much better job with OTA multi-path reception issue than my HTPC with HDHomeRun tuners. Hopefully SilconDust will update the tuners in the OTA HDHomeRun (and maybe go to a 4 tuner unit), just for reference the HDHomeRun Tuners are about the same as the tuners in my Premiere.
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:07 PM   #33
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Not that I have followed TiVo much after 2005 when I sold my first TiVo - just wondering about the Stream and the Mini - those have been around since 2010?
No, but neither of them are innovative.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:10 AM   #34
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Samsungs new cablecard supporting cable box will be an interesting test to the market:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/17/n...art-cable-box/


While I realize it isn't a DVR, if it is successful samsung may decide to make a DVR (or since it has USB, possibly even a software update will work). In addition, if successful other manufacturers may be more willing to enter the market.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:51 AM   #35
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Wishful thinking IMO, the future is IP-based channel delivery (via cable or not), not more card-based stuff. The FCC has asked the MSOs for a standard way to do IP by end of next year.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:32 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Scyber View Post
Samsungs new cablecard supporting cable box will be an interesting test to the market:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/17/n...art-cable-box/


While I realize it isn't a DVR, if it is successful samsung may decide to make a DVR (or since it has USB, possibly even a software update will work). In addition, if successful other manufacturers may be more willing to enter the market.
Samsung already makes a DVR that is furnished by Time Warner Cable.
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Wishful thinking IMO, the future is IP-based channel delivery (via cable or not), not more card-based stuff. The FCC has asked the MSOs for a standard way to do IP by end of next year.
Amen. A pox on CableCARD and especially on Tuning Adapters.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:24 PM   #37
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Wishful thinking IMO, the future is IP-based channel delivery (via cable or not), not more card-based stuff. The FCC has asked the MSOs for a standard way to do IP by end of next year.
That's fine for on-demand and streamed content, but how will that work with hundreds of available channels? Aside from overloading the available bandwidth, it will also put a huge damper on channel surfing, which a lot of people still do. Going to an IP-only based solution will likely mean long waits between switching channels which simply won't sit well with a lot of customers. It will also mean highly compressed content to cram it into the limited bandwidth when trying to feed every household simultaneously.

Frankly, I don't think the current technology can handle it, but then I'm no expert on the subject. I have no problem sticking with what's currently available for a multitude of reasons.

The one question I have is whether the content would be streamed live or would it be available as VOD? Live streaming would probably require some sort of tuning adapter to keep bandwidth requirements reasonable.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:49 PM   #38
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That's fine for on-demand and streamed content, but how will that work with hundreds of available channels? Aside from overloading the available bandwidth, it will also put a huge damper on channel surfing, which a lot of people still do. Going to an IP-only based solution will likely mean long waits between switching channels which simply won't sit well with a lot of customers. It will also mean highly compressed content to cram it into the limited bandwidth when trying to feed every household simultaneously.

Frankly, I don't think the current technology can handle it, but then I'm no expert on the subject. I have no problem sticking with what's currently available for a multitude of reasons.

The one question I have is whether the content would be streamed live or would it be available as VOD? Live streaming would probably require some sort of tuning adapter to keep bandwidth requirements reasonable.
This is how SDV works now, so it wouldn't be any worse then what most people are already seeing. The switch to H.264 will create a bigger delay then switching to IP as the compression used for H.264 means there are less safe entry points for the decoder which means it has to wait longer before it can actually start displaying video.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:42 PM   #39
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I have to love how the OP set up the topic, then off they went, leaving us to go off on our own tangents
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:08 PM   #40
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I have to love how the OP set up the topic, then off they went, leaving us to go off on our own tangents
Good point as TiVo has no serious retail competition; except the renting of a cable co.s own DVR. You can't go into say Best Buy and purchase any DVR except one made by TiVo. That is the only real answer to the OP question.
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:35 PM   #41
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Who does TiVo say their competitors are?

I've posted this before in another thread, but thought it might be worthwhile posting here as well. Here's what TiVo says about their retail competition in their most recent annual report with the SEC on Form 10-K:

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Competition

We believe that the principal competitive factors in the advanced television market, which includes DVRs and other broadband enabled consumer electronic devices, are brand recognition and awareness, functionality, ease of use, content availability, and pricing. We currently see two primary categories of competitors for the TiVo-Owned channel: DVRs offered by satellite, cable, and telecommunications operators and advanced television products and DVRs offered by consumer electronics and software companies.

Competition in the TiVo-Owned Subscription Business. Our retail products compete in the United States against services sold directly by cable, telecommunications, and satellite operators. These products typically combine pay television reception with DVR functionality; most of these products include multiple tuners, high definition recording, and in some cases multi-room viewing capability. Some of these products are offered at lower prices but in many cases are bundled with other services provided by the operator and the price for the DVR and DVR service may not be apparent to the consumer. In addition, these products are usually professionally installed and may appeal to consumers who do not pro-actively select a DVR service. Additionally, many U.S. cable operators are currently deploying Video on Demand technology, which over time could serve as a substitute to our retail products. We are aware of at least one U.S. cable operator, Cablevision, Inc., which is deploying remote storage-based DVR products. To the extent that cable operators offer regular television programming as part of their server-based VOD offerings and DVR technology, consumers may prefer not to acquire an independent set-top based DVR through retail channels.

Our retail products also compete against products with on-demand internet-enabled services offered by consumer electronics companies including:

•Personal computers: Microsoft based PCs and Apple products (among others) enable a variety of entertainment features and services which offer alternatives to traditional DVR services, primarily via internet delivery of content.

•Broadband capable devices and game consoles: We are seeing a proliferation of broadband enabled devices, such as connected televisions, “smartphones”, single purpose broadband set-top boxes, tablets, and gaming consoles that offer broadband delivered content. Though these devices do not offer the breadth of the TiVo service, they do offer alternative ways to access internet-delivered video content through devices that many consumers may seek to acquire for other purposes. For example, many consumer electronics companies have television or DVD products that are internet enabled and others have built dedicated devices for accessing video over the internet such as AppleTV, Roku, and GoogleTV. Similarly, companies such as Sony and Microsoft have now enabled the digital delivery of video programming over the internet to their game consoles.
They go on to describe their competition within their MSO and Media Services (advertising) business, but I didn't think that was really relevant to this thread. I do find it interesting that they don't really mention computers in the context of HTPCs, but rather just in the context of internet content delivery.
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:53 PM   #42
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So even in TiVo's eyes their only competition is from DVRs offered by MSOs and devices that offer alternatives to DVRs via streaming services. Honestly with the uncertainty surrounding the future of CableCARDs and whatever may come next I can't imagine anyone else joining the fray. Maybe Ceton is still working on some standalone device that uses custom DVR software rather then MCE, but it's hard to imagine they'd be able to create a DVR product from the ground up that would be able to compete with TiVo straight out of the gate.
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:11 AM   #43
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I think the main reason why you don't see any independent competitors to Tivo is that as soon as one emerges, Tivo sues the pants off them for even the remotest hint of copyright infringement. It's hard enough for a new company to start up without having to deal with lawsuits right out of the gate. Couple that with the costs of getting CableLabs certification and you're in the red before you even get started. Only the cable and satellite providers with the money to back it can venture into this area. Microsoft has money to burn so it's not surprising they gave it a shot.

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I have to love how the OP set up the topic, then off they went, leaving us to go off on our own tangents
That's pretty much how 95% of the threads go in public forums. The OP posts a topic or question and then stops participating once they get the answer they were seeking. Keeping a thread on topic for the entirety of the discussion is more of the exception than the rule. The initial topic just opens the door to more discussion of related issues.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:59 AM   #44
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I think the main reason why you don't see any independent competitors to Tivo is that as soon as one emerges, Tivo sues the pants off them for even the remotest hint of copyright infringement. It's hard enough for a new company to start up without having to deal with lawsuits right out of the gate. Couple that with the costs of getting CableLabs certification and you're in the red before you even get started. Only the cable and satellite providers with the money to back it can venture into this area. Microsoft has money to burn so it's not surprising they gave it a shot.
What independent competitors did this happen with? I don't recall any suits against Moxi for example which would have been the most recent independent competitor.

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Old 10-23-2013, 05:31 PM   #45
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What independent competitors did this happen with? I don't recall any suits against Moxi for example which would have been the most recent independent competitor.

Scott
They might have eventually, but Moxi went under before TiVo won the suit against Dish. TiVo sued Dish first, after they won that they started suing everyone else. Most of them settled or made deals, so we didn't hear a lot about them beyond Dish.
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:55 PM   #46
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What independent competitors did this happen with? I don't recall any suits against Moxi for example which would have been the most recent independent competitor.

Scott
What Dan said. Moxi had a very short lifespan and quickly disappeared from sight so Tivo never needed to sue them. I'm sure they did their homework before introducing a DVR that might have copyright issues, but it didn't help them much in the grand scheme of things.

Tivo has become a household name associated with DVRs in general, sort of like Kleenex or Xerox and their respective products. Products with different names tend to get overlooked in favor of one that's more familiar.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:12 PM   #47
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I think the main reason why you don't see any independent competitors to Tivo is that as soon as one emerges, Tivo sues the pants off them for even the remotest hint of copyright infringement.
What does *copyright* infringement have to do with anything?

I presume you mean *patent* infringement, and Tivo has various valid patents, so it's right that they can sue and win when other companies use them without paying.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:14 AM   #48
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What does *copyright* infringement have to do with anything?

I presume you mean *patent* infringement, and Tivo has various valid patents, so it's right that they can sue and win when other companies use them without paying.
Yes, exactly. I meant patent infringement.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:50 PM   #49
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Here is a good alternative, but it's only for OTA TV. Not for Cable.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/08/s...-gen-hands-on/

It's called Simple.TV. I never heard of this before and they are on their 2nd generation of the device.
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:54 AM   #50
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Here is a good alternative, but it's only for OTA TV. Not for Cable.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/08/s...-gen-hands-on/

It's called Simple.TV. I never heard of this before and they are on their 2nd generation of the device.
Apparently the first gen could handle OTA and unencrypted (i.e., no cable card) digital cable, but this article doesn't show us the back where the inputs are and doesn't specifically mention cable one way or the other.
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Old 11-09-2013, 06:52 AM   #51
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Really not a stand alone OTA DVR. I believe like the first one you need your own hard drive and another device to view video on a screen.

This article has a picture of the back
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-35205_7...te-on-the-way/

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Old 11-09-2013, 09:39 AM   #52
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Here is a good alternative, but it's only for OTA TV. Not for Cable.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/08/s...-gen-hands-on/

It's called Simple.TV. I never heard of this before and they are on their 2nd generation of the device.
It's not a Tivo competitor since it's OTA-only, and it's not a good alternative for a variety of reasons.
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:31 PM   #53
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The only real retail competitor to TiVo is a MCE pc with a Ceton card or HDHomeRun. Unfortunately with MS discontinuing MCE that may not be an option for much longer. Then again with cable companies pressuring the FCC to allow them to switch back to an integrated encryption scheme TiVo may not work much longer either.
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Old 11-09-2013, 02:26 PM   #54
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The only real retail competitor to TiVo is a MCE pc with a Ceton card or HDHomeRun. Unfortunately with MS discontinuing MCE that may not be an option for much longer. Then again with cable companies pressuring the FCC to allow them to switch back to an integrated encryption scheme TiVo may not work much longer either.
Won't the cable companies need at least one compatible third party set top box to satisfy the level-playing field provisions?
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Old 11-09-2013, 03:57 PM   #55
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Years ago you used to constantly hear people on TV shows and movies saying they "Tivo'd it". Now everyone says they "DVR'd it". It's sad. Tivo was on their way to being a household name and instead they were replaced by a generic term and generic products.
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:01 PM   #56
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The waiver Charter got said that if they could get at least one retail device on the market using their system then they could stop offering CableCARDs. There is not guarantee that one device will be a TiVo or even a DVR. And while they are required to make the scheme open and implementable by 3rd parties there is nothing that requires other cable companies to use the same scheme. So this sets a precedent where every cable system could have it's own scheme and as long as they have one retail device available they can drop support for CableCARDs reverting us to a system where hardware mobility is essentially dead. They will be required to continue servicing CableCARDs that were already deployed, but 5 years from now who knows. The entire retail DVR business could be completely dead.
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:23 PM   #57
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The only real retail competitor to TiVo is a MCE pc with a Ceton card or HDHomeRun. Unfortunately with MS discontinuing MCE that may not be an option for much longer. Then again with cable companies pressuring the FCC to allow them to switch back to an integrated encryption scheme TiVo may not work much longer either.
I'd be surprised if Microsoft doesn't support MCE for at least as long as they support Windows 8 since they offer it as an add-on for Win 8. MS tends to support an OS for approximately ten years on average after the OS is initially launched so chances are MCE will be around at least until 2022. By then I wouldn't be surprised if most cable systems are supplanted entirely by streaming services.
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:22 AM   #58
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That's not true. Vista's support ended in 2012 even though it was released in 2007. So it only had a 5 year run. XP is a special case where they extended support because of backlash over Vista an business users not wanting to upgrade. Win8 is scheduled for support to end in 2018, and service pack support ends in 2016, so MS could potentially kill MCE on either of those dates.

And even if it does last until 2022 there will never be another bug fix or feature. The only thing you're guaranteed is guide data. Plus if the thing I mentioned above with Charter actually happens then the PC as a DVR will be dead for good because there is no way MS will get certified for whatever these new technologies turn out to be.
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:26 AM   #59
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I wasn't aware that they stopped supporting Vista. That seems like an extremely short lifespan for an OS release, although I suspect Vista wasn't as popular as MS would have hoped, which may account for the lack of support. Win 7 got a much higher level of acceptance so maybe it will get extended a while longer.

I am surprised that MS has already announced that support will end for Win 8 in 2018. That doesn't give their customers much incentive to upgrade if they know they'll only get 4 or 5 years out of it. Win 8 isn't exactly flying off the shelves in stores so perhaps MS is viewing this as the next Vista and just intends to cut their losses and move on.

It seems like every other OS that MS released over the past 15 years or so got a rather lukewarm welcome. Windows ME, Vista, and now Win 8 never seemed to tweak the public's interest as much as Win 98 (2nd edition), Win 2K, XP, and Win 7. People aren't all that interested in upgrading their OS every couple of years. I think most people upgrade when they have to or when they purchase a new PC with a newer OS. I only upgraded to Win 7 because it was the only way I could add cablecard tuner support to my HTPC. My PC at work still uses XP, although the company is gradually upgrading everyone to Win 7.

FWIW, MCE will never die. Just because MS stops supporting it doesn't mean it can't be used indefinitely. It just means that there will be no further updates or releases. Even if MS stops providing guide data there are third party providers that can fill the gap. I know people that are still using Win 98. Any OS can be useful for as long as there is hardware available that can use it.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:36 AM   #60
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Hi All.

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