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Old 10-24-2013, 11:28 PM   #211
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Smile Ok...

A few weeks ago I came across a great deal for a Stream so I bought it, even though I don't have an iOS device. But I know SOMEDAY they will release Android support... right?

I have a crappy old Android (Samsung Charge)... and it's now eligible for an upgrade. I really really want the Galaxy S4, but am considering going to the dark side for the OOH streaming...

Of course who really knows for sure how long before they release OOH for the Stream too.....

So there is my conundrum... I actually have nothing against iPhones per se. I just like Droids. What to do?
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:03 AM   #212
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Keep your phone, get an iPad mini that just went on sale.

It will be available for the stand alone Stream in a couple of weeks.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:50 AM   #213
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Keep your phone, get an iPad mini that just went on sale.

It will be available for the stand alone Stream in a couple of weeks.
Thanks I might look into that!

However, I am going to be upgrading to a new phone soon anyway. I was just wondering out loud if I should upgrade to the Galaxy S4 that I want, or get an iPhone 5 instead for the streaming... I am not much of an iPad or tablet person. Just another thing to carry around..
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:45 PM   #214
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Quote:
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A few weeks ago I came across a great deal for a Stream so I bought it, even though I don't have an iOS device. But I know SOMEDAY they will release Android support... right?

I have a crappy old Android (Samsung Charge)... and it's now eligible for an upgrade. I really really want the Galaxy S4, but am considering going to the dark side for the OOH streaming...

Of course who really knows for sure how long before they release OOH for the Stream too.....

So there is my conundrum... I actually have nothing against iPhones per se. I just like Droids. What to do?
.
This is what I almost did when the stream launched. Fortunately I didnt. Three Android tablets later and still no stream support. When the new Nexus 10 comes out I will have another but still no android support.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:08 PM   #215
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Until Tivo Stream works with Android, no deal! Perhaps Tivo didn't get the memo that only iPads outsell Android devices. But Android phones and Phablets, outsell iPhones worldwide.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:34 AM   #216
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That fact has been flogged over and over here, but the reality is that the level of OS in ose devices is not always the most current. If you want to make the market share argument you need to look at OS levels, and many of the android products being sold today at the low end of the price bands are still on older versions of the OS. And, for that matter, you need to look at sales of iOS and android in the countries where TiVo is sold, not just the wolrdwide numbers as they do vary greatly by country.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:09 PM   #217
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That fact has been flogged over and over here, but the reality is that the level of OS in ose devices is not always the most current. If you want to make the market share argument you need to look at OS levels, and many of the android products being sold today at the low end of the price bands are still on older versions of the OS. And, for that matter, you need to look at sales of iOS and android in the countries where TiVo is sold, not just the wolrdwide numbers as they do vary greatly by country.
It's worth repeating since a major new Tivo feature was just enabled -- BUT just Apple devices. But yes. All the excuses (most of which are lame; some have a shred of legitimacy) can be found in this thread.
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:28 PM   #218
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The technical limitations are real and there are lots of articles around the web about difficulty streaming video to Android. Services like Netflix, HBO, etc... are different then the Stream because they are feeding video from a web based server where they can easily store multiple copies/streams of each program to appease different devices. The TiVo stream is a tiny little box with very limited hardware capabilities that is essentially doing live streaming. The options available there are more limited.

That being said it sounds like they got most of the HLS bugs worked out in Android 4.2, so I'm betting that when the TiVo app is finally released it's going to require 4.2+. And there are going to be threads on here b*tching about how TiVo is a bunch of idiots for not supporting older devices and how people were duped into buying because of promised Android support, etc..., etc...

Unless they can some how figure out how to support every device ever made, which is highly unlikely, people are going to complain.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:51 AM   #219
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Yes, there is no way for them to make everyone happy. No matter what is released, they will get skewered.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:16 AM   #220
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The technical limitations are real and there are lots of articles around the web about difficulty streaming video to Android. Services like Netflix, HBO, etc... are different then the Stream because they are feeding video from a web based server where they can easily store multiple copies/streams of each program to appease different devices. The TiVo stream is a tiny little box with very limited hardware capabilities that is essentially doing live streaming. The options available there are more limited.

That being said it sounds like they got most of the HLS bugs worked out in Android 4.2, so I'm betting that when the TiVo app is finally released it's going to require 4.2+. And there are going to be threads on here b*tching about how TiVo is a bunch of idiots for not supporting older devices and how people were duped into buying because of promised Android support, etc..., etc...

Unless they can some how figure out how to support every device ever made, which is highly unlikely, people are going to complain.
That is still something. Hopefully I will be rid of all my Android devices running a version lower than 4.2 by the end of the year.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:34 AM   #221
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That being said it sounds like they got most of the HLS bugs worked out in Android 4.2, so I'm betting that when the TiVo app is finally released it's going to require 4.2+. And there are going to be threads on here b*tching about how TiVo is a bunch of idiots for not supporting older devices and how people were duped into buying because of promised Android support, etc..., etc....
In general, people are reasonable and can understand that older devices aren't compatible with some software. People have been trained by this for years. Apple is a bit of an anomaly in this way since they usually keep 3 generations mostly up to date with the latest OS, but even then, no one expects iPhone 1 to support all the same apps and functions that a 4s or 5s does. That is unreasonable.

The issue with Android support is that it is completely absent. Zero support, and it's been delayed yet again. Smart money is that it will be delayed once more before Tivo supports Android Streaming. 4.2 has been out for more than a year, so where is Stream support for the devices with the most recent OS?

Even more important than Android support is browser support. Smartphone and tablet rates are nothing compared to desktop and laptop numbers. At least with browser support, I could buy a Roamio and put streaming to good use.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:20 PM   #222
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Can we view the tivo content on a TV set connected to the iPad using the 30 pin digital AV Adapter and a HDMI cable?

I know applications have the ability to block such actions. I know if I use dropbox to transfer a properly encoded video to my iPad I can output to an attached TV set. Great feature if you want to watch something at a hotel room.

edited to add: I found the tivostream FAQ in a different subforum. The answer is no, unless the device jail broken.

Last edited by lew : 10-30-2013 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:56 PM   #223
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In general, people are reasonable and can understand that older devices aren't compatible with some software.
Um, this is the internet. I'll take the under on that bet.

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Even more important than Android support is browser support. Smartphone and tablet rates are nothing compared to desktop and laptop numbers. At least with browser support, I could buy a Roamio and put streaming to good use.
Definitely the key. If you can stream to a browser, you could connect a system with a browser to a TV. Hello homemade mini.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:35 PM   #224
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Apparently the only Desktop browser that supports HLS is Safari. However there are plug-ins that can enable HLS playback in other browsers. So a browser based system is not unreasonable. If they converted the whole UI of the app to HTML5 then it would run on pretty much anything.
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:39 PM   #225
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Android support is a legal issue

A tech support person told me that the only issue holding Android support is the legal implication of security. I guess Apple was easier to deal with than Google.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:32 PM   #226
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They use Encrypted HLS, even when downloading, so even if you can gain access to the files, which is easy to do on Android, you can't do anything with them. HLS is based on HTTPS which has never been cracked.

Plus they only allow downloads of files marked Copy Freely. If someone really wanted one of those they could just download via TiVoToGo and decrypt in a matter of seconds.
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Old 10-31-2013, 02:38 PM   #227
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A tech support person told me that the only issue holding Android support is the legal implication of security. I guess Apple was easier to deal with than Google.
This sounds more reasonable. The conspiracy theories that tivo doesn't care about android or is purposely not addressing this are probably bogus. In reality, there is most likely something outside of their control that is delaying this.
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:37 AM   #228
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I just came across the TiVo steam and was very interested in it until I saw only Apple support. It seems like there will be android support just not sure when. My question is will it be a new product or the current Stream with an update that will work? Is there another product besides Slingbox that will do this for Android?
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:39 AM   #229
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I just came across the TiVo steam and was very interested in it until I saw only Apple support. It seems like there will be android support just not sure when. My question is will it be a new product or the current Stream with an update that will work? Is there another product besides Slingbox that will do this for Android?
It will still be the current Stream. But we've already been waiting over a year for Android support. Supposedly they pushed Android support back to early 2014 but I'm not holding my breath. I'll believe it when I see it since we've already been waiting a very long time for it.
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:02 PM   #230
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Yeah, I'm stuck either way. I have an unopened Stream but no devices to stream to. I'm deciding between the new Google Nexus 7 and the new Ipad Mini Retina. Now I'm hearing about severe manufacturing yield problems with the Ipad Mini that could push general availability out to Spring 2014. So it's either

Google Nexus 7 (hardware available now but stream capability not available until 2014)

OR

Ipad Mini Retina (Stream capability available now but hardware not available until Spring 2014)
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:47 PM   #231
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Availability of the retina Mini is going to be tight, but if you really want one you can probably order one at midnight the day they are released and guarantee you'll get one. I did that with the iPhone 5s and got one right away. Others waited until morning and had to wait 3+ weeks.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:02 PM   #232
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Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter? Also, I'm not sure I want one of those low-yield retina Minis for fear the panel could fail at any time. I know there's a one-year warranty but it would still be a hassle.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:06 PM   #233
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Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter?
Depends on if you want it on release day or not. I got an air on release day from the apple. I live really close so it not a big deal to go pick it up.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:11 PM   #234
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Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter? Also, I'm not sure I want one of those low-yield retina Minis for fear the panel could fail at any time. I know there's a one-year warranty but it would still be a hassle.
For the iPhone 5s they did not offer an in store pickup option. You could either order it online and have it shipped, or take your chances and wait in line at the store.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:34 AM   #235
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They use Encrypted HLS, even when downloading, so even if you can gain access to the files, which is easy to do on Android, you can't do anything with them. HLS is based on HTTPS which has never been cracked.

Plus they only allow downloads of files marked Copy Freely. If someone really wanted one of those they could just download via TiVoToGo and decrypt in a matter of seconds.
A bit of a sidenote, but that is completely incorrect. First off, HTTPS only makes sense in the context of file transfer, once the data is handed off receiving client has the clear data and needs to be secured some other way. That is not actually relevant, since Encrypted HLS is not based off of HTTPS anyway.

The way HLS works is that is uses a playlist file (literally a .m3u8) which contains an ordered serious of segments. The client downloads the segments and plays them in ordered. For "live" streams the .m3u8 file contains a directive telling the client to redownload it every few seconds, and the broadcaster updated the file by tacking new segments onto the end of the file. All of the segments and the .m3u8 files generally live on an http server.

The way that encrypted HLS works is that a small portion of each file is encrypted using AES. The .m3u8 file is updated to contain a URL where the clients can download the decryption key for the files. That single URL might be stored on an https server, but it is often handled through a custom URI handler that is specific to the application and written native code. Once you have the key you can download all the segments over normal http, decrypt the small amount of encrypted blocks using the key, and watch your video.

The reason way it is done this way is that encryption/decryption is computationally expensive. For years protected video has only encrypted a small portion of the data in order to avoid incurring the cost of decrypting the whole thing at playback. That is less of a concern on high end smartphones that have hardware crypto units, but it is still a concern. Additionally, for large video providers using per session crypto would greatly lower throughput of their servers and CDNs, so they prefer to encrypt everything one time (at the same time they encode it), server the same data in a way that is completely amenable to http caching, and handle the security through key management rather than per session crypto.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:33 PM   #236
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Is it best to ship it to your home or pick it up at an Apple store, or does it matter? Also, I'm not sure I want one of those low-yield retina Minis for fear the panel could fail at any time. I know there's a one-year warranty but it would still be a hassle.
For the iPad air, I ordered it at midnight PST via the apple store app on my phone. It was ready for in store pickup by 8am according to my emails. I was in and out of the apple store in about 10 minutes (I went at noon to pick it up).

Short answer: if they offer in store, and you live near an apple store, then do it that way. Otherwise you'll have to wait a few days for your shipment to arrive.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:52 PM   #237
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A bit of a sidenote, but that is completely incorrect. First off, HTTPS only makes sense in the context of file transfer, once the data is handed off receiving client has the clear data and needs to be secured some other way. That is not actually relevant, since Encrypted HLS is not based off of HTTPS anyway.

The way HLS works is that is uses a playlist file (literally a .m3u8) which contains an ordered serious of segments. The client downloads the segments and plays them in ordered. For "live" streams the .m3u8 file contains a directive telling the client to redownload it every few seconds, and the broadcaster updated the file by tacking new segments onto the end of the file. All of the segments and the .m3u8 files generally live on an http server.

The way that encrypted HLS works is that a small portion of each file is encrypted using AES. The .m3u8 file is updated to contain a URL where the clients can download the decryption key for the files. That single URL might be stored on an https server, but it is often handled through a custom URI handler that is specific to the application and written native code. Once you have the key you can download all the segments over normal http, decrypt the small amount of encrypted blocks using the key, and watch your video.

The reason way it is done this way is that encryption/decryption is computationally expensive. For years protected video has only encrypted a small portion of the data in order to avoid incurring the cost of decrypting the whole thing at playback. That is less of a concern on high end smartphones that have hardware crypto units, but it is still a concern. Additionally, for large video providers using per session crypto would greatly lower throughput of their servers and CDNs, so they prefer to encrypt everything one time (at the same time they encode it), server the same data in a way that is completely amenable to http caching, and handle the security through key management rather than per session crypto.
You're right, I misread the spec. HTTPS is used as a secure method of distributing the keys, but the actual encryption is AES. I should have known that because I had a user with a jail broken iPhone send me the data from a downloaded show a wile back. I could see the 188 byte pattern of a TS stream. If it had used HTTPS the entire stream would have been encrypted and I wouldn't have been able to see the 188byte packet structure.

But even so the point stands. The shows are still encrypted, even when downloaded, so what are they worried about?
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:36 PM   #238
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You're right, I misread the spec. HTTPS is used as a secure method of distributing the keys, but the actual encryption is AES. I should have known that because I had a user with a jail broken iPhone send me the data from a downloaded show a wile back. I could see the 188 byte pattern of a TS stream. If it had used HTTPS the entire stream would have been encrypted and I wouldn't have been able to see the 188byte packet structure. But even so the point stands. The shows are still encrypted, even when downloaded, so what are they worried about?
The decryption key has to be stored somewhere on the device, otherwise playback wouldn't work without an Internet connection, which isn't the case.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:05 PM   #239
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You're right, I misread the spec. HTTPS is used as a secure method of distributing the keys, but the actual encryption is AES. I should have known that because I had a user with a jail broken iPhone send me the data from a downloaded show a wile back. I could see the 188 byte pattern of a TS stream. If it had used HTTPS the entire stream would have been encrypted and I wouldn't have been able to see the 188byte packet structure.

But even so the point stands. The shows are still encrypted, even when downloaded, so what are they worried about?
https is sometimes used to distribute the keys, but not always. Often the mechanism is to have the the m3u8 include a key at an application specific URL like "myvideoapp://key" . The app then registers an internal URI handler for myvideoapp:, and hands back the appropriate key data when called. How the app gets the key to hand back is its own business.

The reasons to this are varied, but one of the most common ones is that your video licensing requires DRM and granularity beyond what you can through off the shelf http auth mechanisms. That also means that often the key management is significantly more complicated to port and validate between devices, even if they both have eHLS support.
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Old 11-07-2013, 12:21 AM   #240
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The decryption key has to be stored somewhere on the device, otherwise playback wouldn't work without an Internet connection, which isn't the case.
The Android OS must have some way of encrypting local data right? So they could encrypt the keys using that.
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