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Old 10-30-2013, 10:19 AM   #151
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............No company is going to say, especially in marketing material, "function X doesn't work like Y because we are worried about getting sued." You might get the CEO eventually to say something in an interview somewhere, but those kinds of things really don't come out publicly in general.
On the other hand, is it ethical to tout loudly about OOH and hide the fact that it will be severely crippled for about 25% of users in a FAQ?
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And if TWC is misusing the CCI flag, that is TWC's fault, not TiVo's. Customers should be complaining to TWC and the FCC. Actually, you probably would have a case to make with the FCC since TWC has a lot of streaming apps nowdays over IP services, and their setting of the CCI flag prevents you from using TiVo.
As I stated in an earlier post Tivo users of TWC have been complaining to TWC for years. Not sure what your definition of "misusing" is but it has been established clearly that they have a legal right to copy protect as they do. As far as making a case with the FCC, well you may be right in principle. Personally, rather than wait months (or forever) for that paper tiger to do something, I will opt to just use SlingBox on my Tivo HD rather than spend many more hundreds of $$ on a Roamio.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:02 AM   #152
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The FCC has no orders about whether to use copy-control on anything above limited basic, so TWC is free to be as fascist as they are. TWC has repeatedly said that it is their right to do so, which again leaves the ball in Tivo's court for OOH streaming. And they dropped it, as they always do.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:31 AM   #153
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So frustrating. Yes, we know, copy-control should (and does) prevent us from downloading recordings, in or out of home. But STREAMING was a brilliant solution for that, and it works great. Now they should let it work out of the home too. For many of their customers, that's the WHOLE POINT!
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:50 AM   #154
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The FCC has no orders about whether to use copy-control on anything above limited basic, so TWC is free to be as fascist as they are. TWC has repeatedly said that it is their right to do so, which again leaves the ball in Tivo's court for OOH streaming. And they dropped it, as they always do.
I agree except "fascist" is inappropriate. That would mean the government controls industry, whereas in this case government is a paper tiger. However that may be fortunate overall. I'd hate to see cable TV and internet video actually controlled by the government -- that would be worse than TWC!
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:03 PM   #155
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So frustrating. Yes, we know, copy-control should (and does) prevent us from downloading recordings, in or out of home. But STREAMING was a brilliant solution for that, and it works great. Now they should let it work out of the home too. For many of their customers, that's the WHOLE POINT!
I took a survey once and they asked about a possible feature where they could move protected content to a device like an iPad but after it was moved it would not be accessible on the TiVo and there would be no way to move it back. The question was whether or not I would be interested in such a feature.

I think the next loophole in the whole MRV scheme is going to be a move feature. Technically the copy once flag says you can't make another copy of a show, but it doesn't technically prevent moving that show. As long as the show is never accessible on two different devices at once then technically you still only have one copy. If they can get that working then maybe TWCs over zealous use of the CCI byte wont matter as much.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:04 PM   #156
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I agree except "fascist" is inappropriate. That would mean the government controls industry, whereas in this case government is a paper tiger. However that may be fortunate overall. I'd hate to see cable TV and internet video actually controlled by the government -- that would be worse than TWC!
They don't seem to mind it over in the UK. They still get quality programming, and with no commercials.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:05 PM   #157
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On the other hand, is it ethical to tout loudly about OOH and hide the fact that it will be severely crippled for about 25% of users in a FAQ?

As I stated in an earlier post Tivo users of TWC have been complaining to TWC for years. Not sure what your definition of "misusing" is but it has been established clearly that they have a legal right to copy protect as they do. As far as making a case with the FCC, well you may be right in principle. Personally, rather than wait months (or forever) for that paper tiger to do something, I will opt to just use SlingBox on my Tivo HD rather than spend many more hundreds of $$ on a Roamio.
That's perfectly reasonable, and while streaming is a major feature being touted by TiVo for the Roamio, it's not the only one, and TiVo and Slingbox aren't 100% competitors. I got a four tuner Roamio because I don't need 6 tuners and, like you, I want to be able to stream 100% of my content so I am using my older slingbox, and will likely upgrade to a slingbox 350 soon. More or less the best of both worlds for about the same price as getting a 6 tuner Roamio.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:09 PM   #158
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I agree except "fascist" is inappropriate. That would mean the government controls industry, whereas in this case government is a paper tiger. However that may be fortunate overall. I'd hate to see cable TV and internet video actually controlled by the government -- that would be worse than TWC!
Government has enough control that most people have only one cable company from which they can get service at their address.

And I think the Greenlight customers in Wilson, NC are pretty happy that government got involved when TWC couldn't be bothered.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:11 PM   #159
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Don't forget there are some advantages to a Romaio/Stream compared to a SlingBox. First off control is more direct, so skipping commercial is a LOT easier via the Stream. A Slingbox typically has at least a few seconds delay which makes control a bit of a challenge. The other advantage is that the Roamio/Stream does not take over the output of the TiVo. So you can have someone at home watching the TiVo and still watch something remotely without effecting them in any way. With a Slingbox you're mirroring the output of the TiVo so if you want to watch something you have to be sure no one is at home using the TiVo. (some people have dedicated a Mini to a Slingbox to get around this issue)
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:14 PM   #160
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Government has enough control that most people have only one cable company from which they can get service at their address.

And I think the Greenlight customers in Wilson, NC are pretty happy that government got involved when TWC couldn't be bothered.
Yeah most cable companies have a government sanctioned monopoly. I guess Dish and DirecTV are options everywhere, but they're not really options for TiVo users. That's why I really wish that AllVid standard would have taken off. It would have allowed the provider to be completely transparent to the users equipment. You could have used the same TiVo for cable, Dish, DirecTV, even UVerse. Which is precisely why the providers fought so hard against it. They don't want you to have choices. They want to lock you into their service any way they can.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:19 PM   #161
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Don't forget there are some advantages to a Romaio/Stream compared to a SlingBox. First off control is more direct, so skipping commercial is a LOT easier via the Stream. A Slingbox typically has at least a few seconds delay which makes control a bit of a challenge. The other advantage is that the Roamio/Stream does not take over the output of the TiVo. So you can have someone at home watching the TiVo and still watch something remotely without effecting them in any way. With a Slingbox you're mirroring the output of the TiVo so if you want to watch something you have to be sure no one is at home using the TiVo. (some people have dedicated a Mini to a Slingbox to get around this issue)
Absolutely true. There are positives and negatives to each method.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:27 PM   #162
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Don't forget there are some advantages to a Romaio/Stream compared to a SlingBox. First off control is more direct, so skipping commercial is a LOT easier via the Stream. A Slingbox typically has at least a few seconds delay which makes control a bit of a challenge. The other advantage is that the Roamio/Stream does not take over the output of the TiVo. So you can have someone at home watching the TiVo and still watch something remotely without effecting them in any way. With a Slingbox you're mirroring the output of the TiVo so if you want to watch something you have to be sure no one is at home using the TiVo. (some people have dedicated a Mini to a Slingbox to get around this issue)
Yes, SlingBox's whole "virtual on-screen remote" on the front end, with IR blasters on the back end, has always felt like a kludge to me. TiVo is so close to doing it right. And yet...
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:32 PM   #163
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They don't seem to mind it over in the UK. They still get quality programming, and with no commercials.
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Government has enough control that most people have only one cable company from which they can get service at their address.
.......
Illustrating the complexities of discussing "government control". We have multiple levels of government (Federal, state, county, municipal, etc.). The UK case is about national government control while "most people have only one cable company" is usually a result of local (municipal) control.

I know nothing about UK cable content other than I enjoy things like Masterpiece Theater on PBS. However I suspect USA cultural tastes are more diverse than those in the UK and I strongly suspect a major portion of our populace would not be satisfied with UK offerings, or the content that would be offered if controlled by the Federal government. As for commercials, there is no free lunch. You pay for the content one way or another. But even the government manages to perform functions well and efficiently -- on rare occasions.

I don't believe local cable monopolies can be blamed only on (local) government control. There are obvious economic drivers related to infrastructure cost. I don't believe another cable company would want to serve our neighborhood even if there were no franchise or other factors preventing it. Our infrastructure is cable-down-the-street (paid for by TWC). The total bandwidth would not allow sharing by two cable services, and the demand would not support laying more cable or fiber, even if there were no franchise problems. My guess is this situation is typical in the USA.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:57 PM   #164
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I don't believe local cable monopolies can be blamed only on (local) government control. There are obvious economic drivers related to infrastructure cost. I don't believe another cable company would want to serve our neighborhood even if there were no franchise or other factors preventing it. Our infrastructure is cable-down-the-street (paid for by TWC). The total bandwidth would not allow sharing by two cable services, and the demand would not support laying more cable or fiber, even if there were no franchise problems. My guess is this situation is typical in the USA.
Yeah they sort of tried that back in the late 90s when they deregulated the phone industry. Supposedly it was going to open up the market and allow you to get phone and DSL from a bunch of different companies, and for a short period you could, but now 15 years later we're back to a point where AT&T is the only option in this area.
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:04 PM   #165
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Cable isn't an outright monopoly, it's just really,really expensive to overbuild and most cable companies don't enter existing markets. Not the same as the AT&T monopoly was back in the day.
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:37 PM   #166
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Cable isn't an outright monopoly, it's just really,really expensive to overbuild and most cable companies don't enter existing markets. Not the same as the AT&T monopoly was back in the day.
And many if not most places require a franchise from at least one level of government -- further increasing difficulty of entering a market.

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Old 10-30-2013, 05:26 PM   #167
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And many if not most places require a franchise from at least one level of government -- further increasing difficulty of entering a market.

michael
True, but all providers require a franchise so it's just a cost of doing business. It's not an exceptional burden placed only on newcomers, for example.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:18 PM   #168
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Cable isn't an outright monopoly, it's just really,really expensive to overbuild and most cable companies don't enter existing markets. Not the same as the AT&T monopoly was back in the day.
It's a monopoly .
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:17 PM   #169
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Poor implementation and support of CableCARD
????

Maybe "...except for everyone else"???
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:28 PM   #170
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????

Maybe "...except for everyone else"???
High on brevity ... low on clarity.
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:26 AM   #171
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It's a monopoly .
No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.

So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:05 AM   #172
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No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.

So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.
Exactly. Strictly on TV service, there are actually only a few places--anywhere with line of sight or lack of installation locations for a dish--that cable is 100% truly the only choice. Many of those places now have U-Verse or FiOS.

Cable is an effective monopoly (except in FiOS areas) when it comes to CableCard services, but at that point you're so far in the weeds and it's such a small market you're not going to get a lot of traction or sympathy from anyone other than the FCC.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:59 PM   #173
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No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.

So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.
If the barriers are too high,which is absolutely true,in reality it has become a monopoly.

i can't wait till all my media,video and audio comes through Comcast's dumb pipe ! Someone ,Google Apple ,etc will get this done .

Of course Comcast and Co. will try to drive internet only prices through the roof to avoid becoming a dumb pipe.

This is when the real competition will begin. The sooner the better.
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:07 PM   #174
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No, cable is not a monopoly. By law any provider can come in and get a franchise to build, but the high barriers to entry in a market prevent that from happening in most areas.

So, due to those costs cable has an 'effective' monopoly (or more accurately oligopoly because of other players like U-Verse, FIOS etc.) on wired TV service but it's not because of government restrictions in most cases. And of course you can also get DirecTV and Dish.
I cannot get Direct Tv , too many trees
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:56 PM   #175
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I have two Roamio (basic) boxes. If I get a stream, will it work for both boxes at home, or just one of them? Not having one, I have no idea how it works technically.

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Old 10-31-2013, 06:15 PM   #176
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Yes it'll work for any Premiere or Roamio on your network. The only limitation is that while the Stream can live anywhere on your network the connection between it and the TiVo(s) have to be wired, either Ethernet or MoCa.

Also the standalone Stream does not yet support OOH streaming. That's not coming for a couple more weeks.
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:14 PM   #177
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Yes it'll work for any Premiere or Roamio on your network. The only limitation is that while the Stream can live anywhere on your network the connection between it and the TiVo(s) have to be wired, either Ethernet or MoCa.
Yeah, my main TiVo will be able to do that, but the secondary one won't, as that's wireless on the other side of the house. That's about 95% kids shows, so we're unlikely to be streaming them outside the house anyway.

Quote:
Also the standalone Stream does not yet support OOH streaming. That's not coming for a couple more weeks.
Oh, I know. Just gathering info. Danke.
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Old 11-20-2013, 03:14 AM   #178
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I don't think that's true. I think DirecTV has special deals with specific channels that allow streaming outside the home and only shows from those channels are allowed. It's sort of like their own internal CCI byte.
According to TCF's own Hoffer, who has a DirecTV Genie Go:

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Everything works except pay per view and on demand recordings.

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