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Old 10-29-2013, 12:28 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
I agree, but we don't really know what sort of push back they're getting from CableLabs on this. Outside the home streaming is not something that is covered in the CableCARD specification and there is no precedent for this anywhere else. The only device on the market that allows outside the home streaming from all channels is the Dish DVR with built in Slingbox and they are currently being sued by several networks over that feature. Perhaps TiVo is waiting to see how that pans out before they push their luck and wind up in court too.
This is silly. Streaming in the home and out of the home should not matter if confined to an existing user's account. Slingbox technology is not going to be ruled illegal, so why would Tivo hide behind fringe lawsuits that take years to pan out. By that time, everyone will be offering out of house streaming, and the small advantage Tivo has will be gone.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:29 PM   #122
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I'm sure if they could completely ignore the CCI flag, they would. Why would they want to piss off their customers? The fact is, however, that they are at the mercy of CableLabs. If they don't follow whatever rules CableLabs put forth, then they don't get Cable Card approval and then they're out of business. If CableLabs said they had to paint the lobby of their headquarters neon green, they'd have to do it.
You're making a HUGE assumption that Tivo actually verified with CableLabs that it was explicitly not allowed. I think the truth more likely lies in staying in bed with their MSO partners, because that's where the money is. Retail customers always get the shaft from Tivo w/CCI.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:36 PM   #123
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,,,,,,,You have a TiVo HD? So you haven't purchased a Roamio or even a Premiere? Then you don't have Stream and haven't been duped by a non-forthcoming TiVo?

I am just trying to get my facts straight.
..............
So?? I easily could have been mislead when considering a Roamio purchase. Fortunately I read these forums so avoided that.
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You can't expect TiVo to put in big letters as if it is a feature "hey this might not work when you get it home". No one would even consider it. They do not hide the fact that it doesn't work with CCI restricted content. It's a balance to be sure, but they're not duping anyone.
There's a big space between "big letters" and the obscure statement buried in a FAQ. I think an asterick linked to a footnote explaining the copy protection limitations would be OK.
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Why don't you complain to your cable company about the restrictions instead of bashing tivo for your cable company's restrictions?
TWC Tivo customers have complained --- in writing --- for years and TWC responds with lawyer letters explaining they have a legal right to copy protect (which is correct). I could provide a link to at least one large thread on this forum detailing this but it isn't worth digging up. TWC is the second largest MSO and Tivo has known about this for more than three years. The least they could do is be more open about letting potential buyers know about the limitation.

I have to wonder how many of you grin-and-bear-it posters have actually suffered from the TTG (and now, OOH) limitations imposed by TWC.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #124
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So another question is, if Tivo is so damn worried about OOH streaming, why has Slingbox been doing it for years and not been sued? Don't you think Tivo would point this out to CableLabs or any MSO as a precedent? Yeah I know, analog vs. digital, but it's not as if component outputs have gone away on the boxes.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:46 PM   #125
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I seriously doubt TWC et al gives a crap because the precedent already exists to allow streaming.
Indeed. Why else did TiVo introduce streaming then? As an antidote to the CCI ("copy once") flag. They should strap on a set of balls and let streaming work outside the home, too. Because the fact of the matter is, if I'm at home I'm going to be watching on the TiVo/TV anyway. This function and feature is only useful to me on an iPad (and many others, I imagine) if they opened it up to work outside the home as it works inside the home.

I'm just tired of TiVo being slow and meek about these things, it's always so disappointing. They need to be more aggressive and innovative, IMO.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:00 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by mr_smits View Post
This is silly. Streaming in the home and out of the home should not matter if confined to an existing user's account. Slingbox technology is not going to be ruled illegal, so why would Tivo hide behind fringe lawsuits that take years to pan out. By that time, everyone will be offering out of house streaming, and the small advantage Tivo has will be gone.
How do you know Sling technology won't be ruled illegal, especially in the context of being integrated into a cable box? The only reason TiVo is in business today is because other companies said "damn the torpedoes" and infringed on TiVo's patents and TiVo raked it in pretty big. I'm sure they are not itching to jump in feet first without making sure they're not making the same mistakes Echostar/Dish, AT&T, Scientific Atlanta, Motorola, and Time Warner made.

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You're making a HUGE assumption that Tivo actually verified with CableLabs that it was explicitly not allowed. I think the truth more likely lies in staying in bed with their MSO partners, because that's where the money is. Retail customers always get the shaft from Tivo w/CCI.
How am *I* making a huge assumption? It's not that unreasonable to think that CCI, something CableLabs wanted in the spec, would be pushed further into new features by CableLabs. We're all making assumptions here. How reasonable those assumptions turn out to be is a matter of opinion.

And, even if they are simply kowtowing to the MSOs, so what? Without the MSO deals they've signed, they'd be out of business. The lawsuit judgements they got from the various companies they sued would last only so long. At the end of the day the MSOs are also their customers, and it's in TiVo's interest to make their most important customers happy. If that's the MSOs, then sucks to be us. TiVo does a lot of things for retail customers that I think suck (pause ads for example) and those you can legitimately gripe about, because that's doing nothing for the MSOs. But if there's a constrained environment that they live within, and going outside of those constraints would mean their going out of business, I can't fault them for it.

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So another question is, if Tivo is so damn worried about OOH streaming, why has Slingbox been doing it for years and not been sued? Don't you think Tivo would point this out to CableLabs or any MSO as a precedent? Yeah I know, analog vs. digital, but it's not as if component outputs have gone away on the boxes.
Dish is currently involved in litigation revolving around both the commercial skipping and the Sling technology in the Hopper.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:01 PM   #127
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I'm just tired of TiVo being slow and meek about these things, it's always so disappointing. They need to be more aggressive and innovative, IMO.
I actually agree with you... I do think that Tivo at least owes its customers an answer to the question "why not"

It would be one thing if the CCI language addressed streaming, but it does not. So either a dictate came down from Cable Labs that provided a legal guidlines for implementing stream - or Tivo made this decision on their own to avoid the possibility of litigation from the MSO's.

Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.

If TiVo is so littigation weary that they just want to avoid any possibility (or direct threat) of littigation - at least be direct in the promotional materials.

If this just impacted HBO, It wouldn't really be that big of a deal. But with TWC - it really is a major pain for those customers.

I am glad I have FIOS!!!!

Maybe they are waiting from the DISH litigation to run its course:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-575...er-with-sling/
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:22 PM   #128
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Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.

If TiVo is so littigation weary that they just want to avoid any possibility (or direct threat) of littigation - at least be direct in the promotional materials.

If this just impacted HBO, It wouldn't really be that big of a deal. But with TWC - it really is a major pain for those customers.
[/url]
CableLabs is not a government organization. It is an industry trade group founded by the cable companies.

No company is going to say, especially in marketing material, "function X doesn't work like Y because we are worried about getting sued." You might get the CEO eventually to say something in an interview somewhere, but those kinds of things really don't come out publicly in general.

And if TWC is misusing the CCI flag, that is TWC's fault, not TiVo's. Customers should be complaining to TWC and the FCC. Actually, you probably would have a case to make with the FCC since TWC has a lot of streaming apps nowdays over IP services, and their setting of the CCI flag prevents you from using TiVo.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:22 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
You're making a HUGE assumption that Tivo actually verified with CableLabs that it was explicitly not allowed. I think the truth more likely lies in staying in bed with their MSO partners, because that's where the money is.
You speak as though CableLabs and the MSOs were two separate things. They're not.

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Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.
CableLabs is certainly not a government organization. It's a private, ostensibly non-profit corporation, owned by the cable companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableLabs
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:48 PM   #130
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Okay, I misunderstood the authority granted to cablelabs to determine and interpret these content based regulations. That is fine...

What I have found is that even Sling will not allow you to place-shift protected content. Requiring the analog connection to bypass HDCP protections.

Quote:
HDCP-protected, it can’t be placeshifted.
http://placeshiftingenthusiasts.com/...ps-and-review/

This ruling on place-shifting has to come from someplace - and everyone says that the CCI Byte has no language on streaming (place shifting). Isn't this the same thing?

I know that the CCI Byte is one specific control mechanism and isn't necessarily the same as HDCP protections - but those are all mechanisms for the same outcome:

Limiting the number of times a user can copy content, and apparently limiting the ability to place-shift content.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:50 PM   #131
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I actually agree with you... I do think that Tivo at least owes its customers an answer to the question "why not"

It would be one thing if the CCI language addressed streaming, but it does not. So either a dictate came down from Cable Labs that provided a legal guidlines for implementing stream - or Tivo made this decision on their own to avoid the possibility of litigation from the MSO's.

Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.

If TiVo is so littigation weary that they just want to avoid any possibility (or direct threat) of littigation - at least be direct in the promotional materials.

If this just impacted HBO, It wouldn't really be that big of a deal. But with TWC - it really is a major pain for those customers.

I am glad I have FIOS!!!!

Maybe they are waiting from the DISH litigation to run its course:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-575...er-with-sling/
CableLabs is not a government organization by any measure. It's composed of, and governed by, the cable companies (you have to be cable company to be a member, and the board of directors are CEOs of major companies.) So there's no hope of information there.

My belief has always been that even in-house streaming is probably a violation of the CableLabs regulations; I went through the regulations pretty carefully back when TiVo first started with cable cards, looking for ways that TiVo could move CCI protected shows. IMO, in-house is only being allowed because Dish and DirecTV did it first - they're not subject to CableLabs or cablecard regulations. The cable companies won't give that competitive advantage to the satellite companies.

So far, it's not clear what CableLabs (ie, Time Warner since nobody else cares as much) will allow. I think TiVo is hoping that CableLabs will allow out-of-house at some point, so they don't want to preclude it in their advertising. None of us know whether TiVo has talked to CableLabs or has any ideas about when this will be decided. The language TiVo uses now is very circumspect, and will fit the situation no matter which way CableLabs goes.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:50 PM   #132
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So another question is, if Tivo is so damn worried about OOH streaming, why has Slingbox been doing it for years and not been sued? Don't you think Tivo would point this out to CableLabs or any MSO as a precedent? Yeah I know, analog vs. digital, but it's not as if component outputs have gone away on the boxes.
Simple answer: Cable TV (MSO's and their CableLabs) has a lot more leverage on Tivo than they do on SlingBox. Poor implementation and support of CableCARD, and even worse Tuning Adapters, is already hurting Tivo. If Tivo provokes the MSO's they could do a lot worse. (Please don't claim the FCC would prevent it. They haven't been able to prevent the poor support that's already going on.) SlingBox has no reason to be concerned about good relations with Cable TV.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:53 PM   #133
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How do you know Sling technology won't be ruled illegal, especially in the context of being integrated into a cable box? ...

Dish is currently involved in litigation revolving around both the commercial skipping and the Sling technology in the Hopper.

Common sense and history about the evolution of technology? The same reason VCRs, mp3s, file sharing, and torrents are not illegal. You can't put the genie back into the bottle. Tivo should take advantage while they even have an advantage to take!

Don't conflate the issues with commercial skipping and Sling technology. Two separate issues even though one company, DISH, is pushing them both.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:57 PM   #134
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Okay, I misunderstood the authority granted to cablelabs to determine and interpret these content based regulations. That is fine...

What I have found is that even Sling will not allow you to place-shift protected content. Requiring the analog connection to bypass HDCP protections.


http://placeshiftingenthusiasts.com/...ps-and-review/

This ruling on place-shifting has to come from someplace - and everyone says that the CCI Byte has no language on streaming (place shifting). Isn't this the same thing?

I know that the CCI Byte is one specific control mechanism and isn't necessarily the same as HDCP protections - but those are all mechanisms for the same outcome:

Limiting the number of times a user can copy content, and apparently limiting the ability to place-shift content.
The inability of Sling to copy HDCP protected content output over HDMI is an HDMI restriction. They could not get a license for HDMI or HDCP if they broke that rule. You can't output HDCP protected content to any non-secure display. That's another reason Sling can do things TiVo cannot, Sling still has the analog hole to slip through. TiVo cannot do that without going back to the old way of using boxes and IR blasters and blech.


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CableLabs is not a government organization by any measure. It's composed of, and governed by, the cable companies (you have to be cable company to be a member, and the board of directors are CEOs of major companies.) So there's no hope of information there.

My belief has always been that even in-house streaming is probably a violation of the CableLabs regulations; I went through the regulations pretty carefully back when TiVo first started with cable cards, looking for ways that TiVo could move CCI protected shows. IMO, in-house is only being allowed because Dish and DirecTV did it first - they're not subject to CableLabs or cablecard regulations. The cable companies won't give that competitive advantage to the satellite companies.

So far, it's not clear what CableLabs (ie, Time Warner since nobody else cares as much) will allow. I think TiVo is hoping that CableLabs will allow out-of-house at some point, so they don't want to preclude it in their advertising. None of us know whether TiVo has talked to CableLabs or has any ideas about when this will be decided. The language TiVo uses now is very circumspect, and will fit the situation no matter which way CableLabs goes.
Cable companies do in-house streaming, too. I think the difference is that theoretically you could do "in house streaming" by stringing wires between all the TVs and one box. Moving content outside of your house is a whole other story. The MSOs see themselves as selling a subscription to a location, not a person. That is the big difference.
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:08 PM   #135
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Cable companies do in-house streaming, too. I think the difference is that theoretically you could do "in house streaming" by stringing wires between all the TVs and one box. Moving content outside of your house is a whole other story. The MSOs see themselves as selling a subscription to a location, not a person. That is the big difference.
That's not the difference according to the cablecard regulations. The regulations were pretty clear on a full copy of a show not escaping the cablecard device, unless it was an approved method (I think Firewire was being looked at) to an approved device. That's a reason why TiVo has not wanted to put full copies of shows on their external disk extenders, IMO.

Yes, the cable companies do in-house streaming now, but the satellite companies were first. That's why, IMO, TiVo was allowed to do it - because the cable companies were planning on doing it themselves in response to the satellite companies, and CableLabs would get into major hot water if they prohibited TiVo from doing it.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:03 PM   #136
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The only device on the market that allows outside the home streaming from all channels is the Dish DVR with built in Slingbox and they are currently being sued by several networks over that feature.
This is not true.

From June 2013:

Engadget: DirecTV GenieGo takes the fight to Sling, brings TV streaming anywhere on PC and iOS

Quote:
What's New in Version 2.2.116

- The DIRECTV® nomad app is now the DIRECTV GenieGO™ app.
- Now instantly stream recordings on your HD DVR anywhere you have a Wi-Fi Internet connection without having to be on the home network. Just click "Watch Now" on any program in your Playlist to start watching instantly.
- Set programs to prepare for download while you are away from home so they are ready to download when you arrive home.

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Old 10-29-2013, 03:18 PM   #137
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I'm glad Tivo took this step .I just want to watch the content I paid for anywhere I want !

It's not like someone is hovering over my back at the airport attempting to steal my ipad
watching of Tivo content.

Its time for the dinosaurs of the media business who want to lock down everything to come to realize that the times are a changin.

Of course,this may not happen without a legal battle here or there.

I find it very interesting that TIvo set up streaming to record and then stream the content
Very smart !You are actually then watching something you are recording .
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:31 PM   #138
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Does the DIRECTV GenieGO allow streaming of HBO?
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:37 PM   #139
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I don't think that's true. I think DirecTV has special deals with specific channels that allow streaming outside the home and only shows from those channels are allowed. It's sort of like their own internal CCI byte. Except that because they are in direct control of both the partnerships and the hardware they have a bit of an advantage compared to TiVo who is basically an outsider making hardware for someone else's service.
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:39 PM   #140
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I'm glad Tivo took this step .I just want to watch the content I paid for anywhere I want !

It's not like someone is hovering over my back at the airport attempting to steal my ipad
watching of Tivo content.

Its time for the dinosaurs of the media business who want to lock down everything to come to realize that the times are a changin.

Of course,this may not happen without a legal battle here or there.

I find it very interesting that TIvo set up streaming to record and then stream the content
Very smart !You are actually then watching something you are recording .
I think these guys feel that if you don't have access to these shows via streaming from your DVR then you're more likely to watch the ad supported version on their website or buy a copy of the show from iTunes, Amazon, etc... So to them opening this up costs them money. TimeWarner is the biggest believer in this probably because they are also in the content creation business. We may eventually see Comcast take a similar stance now that they own NBC.
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Old 10-29-2013, 05:40 PM   #141
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I don't think that's true. I think DirecTV has special deals with specific channels that allow streaming outside the home and only shows from those channels are allowed. It's sort of like their own internal CCI byte. Except that because they are in direct control of both the partnerships and the hardware they have a bit of an advantage compared to TiVo who is basically an outsider making hardware for someone else's service.
Well then, I'm thinking the only way to know the real truth here is to find someone who has a DTV GenieGo and ask them. Surely someone in the forum has experience with one...
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:18 PM   #142
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I think these guys feel that if you don't have access to these shows via streaming from your DVR then you're more likely to watch the ad supported version on their website or buy a copy of the show from iTunes, Amazon, etc... So to them opening this up costs them money. TimeWarner is the biggest believer in this probably because they are also in the content creation business. We may eventually see Comcast take a similar stance now that they own NBC.
Time Warner Cable is completely independent of Time Warner Inc., though the CCI byte screwup has been going on longer than that. I suspect they simply don't care.
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:21 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Fofer View Post
Well then, I'm thinking the only way to know the real truth here is to find someone who has a DTV GenieGo and ask them. Surely someone in the forum has experience with one...
I found some forum posts talking about it. I didn't see anything about specific channel restrictions. However I did find one post where the guy mentioned that you aren't allowed to FF when using it OOH. I wonder if that's how they appease the content providers by not allowing people to skip ads when OOH? But it was just one post, so that guy could have just been wrong.
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Old 10-29-2013, 07:53 PM   #144
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Indeed. Why else did TiVo introduce streaming then?
How do you propose to make a Mini that works with MRV instead of MRS?
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:02 PM   #145
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How do you propose to make a Mini that works with MRV instead of MRS?
Point taken, but this distinction between "streaming within the home" and "streaming to my own authorized iPad outside the home" is just stupid. Whoever made this decision should be made aware -- it's inanity like that which ENCOURAGES folks to throw up their hands and just pirate what they want to watch, since it's easier.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:03 PM   #146
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Agreed. All this DRM stuff sucks. It hurts our business as well. (we can't support TW customers either) But I'm still not sure if TiVo is to blame. With Cable Labs basically holding the keys to TiVo's entire business we can't really blame them for not wanting to rock the boat. There was a time when TiVo had a major competitor, ReplayTV, who got really creative with the user centric features and they ended up getting sued out of business. So I can understand why TiVo would choose to tread lightly.

For those of us not on TW the feature still has use. Back in April I went on a business trip. I pre-downloaded a bunch of shows to my iPad using my Stream so I had stuff to watch in the hotel. However one thing I missed was the ability to watch The Daily Show every night before I went to bed. Those episodes were recorded on my TiVo at home but I had no way to watch them. This year I'll be able to stream or download them from the hotel. I'm looking forward to being able to do that.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:43 PM   #147
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And, another thing, it's not just TiVo that gets bitten by this. PCI cable tuner cards are limited heavily by their CableLabs certification. There are a lot of novel uses for PC TV tuners that basically will never happen because of the driver lockdown on those tuners.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:53 PM   #148
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However one thing I missed was the ability to watch The Daily Show every night before I went to bed. Those episodes were recorded on my TiVo at home but I had no way to watch them. This year I'll be able to stream or download them from the hotel. I'm looking forward to being able to do that.
Fortunately Plex also has a Daily Show channel so I can stream that from anywhere, for free. No commercials. And no upstream limit to worry about.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:50 AM   #149
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And, another thing, it's not just TiVo that gets bitten by this. PCI cable tuner cards are limited heavily by their CableLabs certification. There are a lot of novel uses for PC TV tuners that basically will never happen because of the driver lockdown on those tuners.
Yep all those CCI flagged shows are locked down in the WTV format too. You can only play them in MCE on the PC that recorded them. And MCE is the only PC DVr software that can even record them, and it's been discontinued so in a few years there wont be any PC based DVRs at all which hurts our business as well.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:56 AM   #150
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Yep all those CCI flagged shows are locked down in the WTV format too. You can only play them in MCE on the PC that recorded them. And MCE is the only PC DVr software that can even record them, and it's been discontinued so in a few years there wont be any PC based DVRs at all which hurts our business as well.
To be perfectly honest, if I could record ALL cablecard channels with a PCI card, I'd probably build a mythtv box than buy a TiVo, but having been in on the IR blaster DVR train at the beginning, I'm never going back. Plus, it's not like I dislike my TiVo
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