TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-30-2013, 10:57 PM   #1
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Question Tivo HD Drive Failing - Want to Confirm my Options

This forum is an absolute wealth of info and I'm struggling to absorb it all. I think I have a grasp on some things but I would really appreciate some confirmation. My situation:

Tivo HD TCD652160
Software: 11.0m
Internal Drive: 1TB Seagate
External: 1TB WD in Antec MX-1 enclosure

Ages ago I married these drives using WinMFS and the unit has been working great for years. Just recently I started getting freezing during recorded playback as well as live TV. Sometimes it recovers and sometimes it reboots. I do not yet have the dreaded startup reboot loop. It always reboots ok and functions for some period of time ranging from minutes to days.

I've read a lot about the two likely culprits - drive health and PS caps. I opened up the unit and see that C503 is bulging and leaking and a couple other caps are also bulging. I have ordered replacements and will fix that. However I don't think that's currently my biggest problem.

I ran Kickstart 54 SMART test and the internal drive failed with "Fail 7" - whatever that means. Here's a pic - apologies for the glare:



I know this drive needs to be replaced. Unfortunately I have never backed up this set and I'm hoping it isn't too late to save my config and also possibly my recordings. I will scrub the recordings to minimize data size but there are things on there I would really like to keep.

So here's where I'm confused. I have a Win7 PC. But I'm unsure of the software and process to use. At this point can I use DvrBARS to do a Modified Full backup and save everything? Is it hopeless?

Should I replace the 1TB dying drive with another 1TB drive? 2TB are so cheap now that I'm tempted to just get one of those (Amazon has WD20EURS for $92 shipped). Will that work - with and without keeping my external 1TB? If I can put in a 2TB internal I'll be tempted to retire the external as I don't need more than 300 hours of capacity and could reduce the complexity of the system.

Thoughts and suggestions are very much appreciated.

Last edited by Muad'Dib : 10-03-2013 at 02:50 PM.
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 12:45 AM   #2
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
You might be able to use

dd_rescue

on the MFS Live cd to "Xerox" the internal drive to another 1TB which should save the recordings that are split between the internal and external.

No guarantees, but maybe you could use the 1st 1TB of a 2TB as target, and then once you've copied off to computer all the shows you can/want to and watched up everything else, divorce the external and then use WinMFS to expand into the second half of the 2TB drive.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 12:47 AM   #3
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
Forgot to say, don't trust any troubleshooting results until after power supply gets straightened out, because failing ones cause all sorts of strange and unpredictable symptoms.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 08:32 AM   #4
dlfl
Cranky old novice
 
dlfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Near Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 6,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
Forgot to say, don't trust any troubleshooting results until after power supply gets straightened out, because failing ones cause all sorts of strange and unpredictable symptoms.
Thus the KS54 results may be invalid -- it's possible both your drives are OK. Get the PSU fixed first.
__________________

"It must be swell to be so perfect and odor-free" -- Del Griffith


VideoReDo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

pyTivo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dlfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 10:19 AM   #5
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Ok thanks. That thought occurred to me last night after I posted - could the PS cause incorrect Kickstart results? I'll fix the PS before I do anything with the drives and report back.
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #6
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
Ok thanks. That thought occurred to me last night after I posted - could the PS cause incorrect Kickstart results? I'll fix the PS before I do anything with the drives and report back.
Most likely you also have hard drive trouble, but you need to take the drive out and hook it to a PC and test it with the manufacturer's diagnostic software to be sure.

It's just that without a properly functioning power supply, you can't accurately assess anything else about your TiVo.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 06:19 AM   #7
ggieseke
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
So here's where I'm confused. I have a Win7 PC. But I'm unsure of the software and process to use. At this point can I use DVRBAR to do a Modified Full backup and save everything? Is it hopeless?
To do a Modified Full backup with DvrBARS, both drives have to be connected at the same time and it will create a separate backup file for each drive. If the external is okay you could just connect the internal drive and run a Full backup, which is essentially the same as dd.

DvrBARS restores are done one drive at a time even if it was a two-drive config. Unitron's advice to try a direct drive to drive copy of your internal with MFS Live is probably the fastest route.

Either way, I agree that the power supply needs to be healthy before you believe anything else it says.
ggieseke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 10:46 AM   #8
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
Most likely you also have hard drive trouble, but you need to take the drive out and hook it to a PC and test it with the manufacturer's diagnostic software to be sure.

It's just that without a properly functioning power supply, you can't accurately assess anything else about your TiVo.
I tried that with one of the drives but WD's software wouldn't recognize the drive through my SATA/USB adapter. Obviously I don't want Windows Disk Manager to initialize the disk so I guess I'll have to open my case and plug them in directly to the motherboard. Annoying.....
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 11:59 AM   #9
dlfl
Cranky old novice
 
dlfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Near Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 6,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
I tried that with one of the drives but WD's software wouldn't recognize the drive through my SATA/USB adapter. ........
That's strange. I've used a SATA/USB adapter with WD's diagnostics on both an XP and a Win7 PC. Maybe your anti-virus is interfering -- try disabling it. Disable your network connection if you want to maximize security during this.

Another thought is to run WD Diagnostics "As Administrator" (which doesn't mean just running it from an admin-privileged account.)
__________________

"It must be swell to be so perfect and odor-free" -- Del Griffith


VideoReDo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

pyTivo users: Try
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dlfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 02:49 PM   #10
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
I did run it as an Admin - no change. It detects all of the drives except the Tivo one. Windows Disk Manager sees it as an uninitialized volume so I know the adapter is working and the drive does spin up. I've been blaming it on the WD software but I have not tried disabling my anti-virus so I will do that.
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 04:28 PM   #11
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
I did run it as an Admin - no change. It detects all of the drives except the Tivo one. Windows Disk Manager sees it as an uninitialized volume so I know the adapter is working and the drive does spin up. I've been blaming it on the WD software but I have not tried disabling my anti-virus so I will do that.
Don't use the Windows version of the WD software, burn yourself a bootable cd from the .iso on their website that boots you into somebody's version of DOS and runs it on that, or burn yourself a bootable copy of the Ultimate Boot CD--it's got the WD software and a whole bushel basket of other stuff that may come in handy sooner or later.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 04:08 PM   #12
sfhub
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
I tried that with one of the drives but WD's software wouldn't recognize the drive through my SATA/USB adapter. Obviously I don't want Windows Disk Manager to initialize the disk so I guess I'll have to open my case and plug them in directly to the motherboard. Annoying.....
I believe as long as you have WinXP SP3 or newer, it won't write anything to your drives. I have WinXP SP3 and went through a bunch of TiVo drive connections and nothing was ever overwritten.

The windows WD Lifeguard utility should be able to recognize your drive even if it connected by USB. Although the SMART operations won't work over USB.

BTW is there a reason you are using the WD Lifeguard utility rather than the Seagate Seatools utility (since I think you mentioned your drive is a Seagate in the first post)

Sometimes if you use the eSATA connections the cable connections are too long and the drives don't get recognized.
sfhub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 05:50 PM   #13
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post
I believe as long as you have WinXP SP3 or newer, it won't write anything to your drives. I have WinXP SP3 and went through a bunch of TiVo drive connections and nothing was ever overwritten.

The windows WD Lifeguard utility should be able to recognize your drive even if it connected by USB. Although the SMART operations won't work over USB.

BTW is there a reason you are using the WD Lifeguard utility rather than the Seagate Seatools utility (since I think you mentioned your drive is a Seagate in the first post)

Sometimes if you use the eSATA connections the cable connections are too long and the drives don't get recognized.

Good catch--so many people are using WD drives around here I'd forgotten that he or she said Seagate.

The Ultimate Boot cd has Seagate's program as well as WD's (and some other brands as well).
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 09:57 PM   #14
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Update:

I replaced the caps in the power supply and, although it looks better, it behaves no differently. KS54 still tells me the internal drive is failing.

I initially ran WD Lifeguard on the external drive (which is a WD drive) just because it was the first one I unhooked. This was before I knew about KS54 so I wasn't sure which drive to check first. Now that I know the internal Seagate is the suspect drive I just connected it to my PC, ran Seatools and it confirms the drive is bad.

So I'm going to order a new WD 1TB for the internal drive, do a straight up copy using MFS Live and cross my fingers. I'm thinking of ordering the WD10EURX - is that a good choice or does anyone have other recommendations? At this point I want to stick with WD because this Seagate failure is the second I've had recently.
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 06:26 PM   #15
ciper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,010
In the future I suggest not to use kickstart 54 as its a waste of time and OFTEN passes drives which are failing.
Connect the drive to your computer and run this tool http://gsmartcontrol.berlios.de/home/index.php/en/Home Its available for practically every OS, including windows, and supports any brand of drive so there's no reason for special manufacturer specific tools.

Once you get the new drive consider something similar to what I am doing at this moment http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...68#post9852268 (though you don't necessarily need to replace both drives, its good insurance since 1tb drives can be had for 59$ retail boxed these days)
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2013, 07:34 PM   #16
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciper View Post
In the future I suggest not to use kickstart 54 as its a waste of time and OFTEN passes drives which are failing.
Connect the drive to your computer and run this tool http://gsmartcontrol.berlios.de/home/index.php/en/Home Its available for practically every OS, including windows, and supports any brand of drive so there's no reason for special manufacturer specific tools.

Once you get the new drive consider something similar to what I am doing at this moment http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...68#post9852268 (though you don't necessarily need to replace both drives, its good insurance since 1tb drives can be had for 59$ retail boxed these days)
Do you consider GSmartControl superior to using the appropriate manufacturer's own diagnostic software off of the Ultimate Boot CD (or downloaded as a bootable .iso from the manufacturer's own site)?
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 10:56 AM   #17
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Update:

I have both internal and external Tivo drives hooked up to my PC and am doing a modified full backup with DvrBARS. It has given me a couple of read errors but seems to continue through them and is still backing up. Assuming it is able to finish and I am able to restore the Drive A VHD to a new physical drive A what should I expect as a result of the errors? Will it just be recordings that could be screwed or is it possible the system software will also be screwed?

By the way I love the UI of DvrBARS. Especially the familiar sounds.....

Thanks!
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 01:53 PM   #18
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Well it's reached about 80% into the backup and now it churns for a while, gives me a read error repeat repeat but the status bar never moves forward.

Am I done? Is it hopeless? If so then what do I need to do? Get a fresh image and restore from that and start over with my season passes, etc.?
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 02:50 PM   #19
sfhub
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,268
I don't know how DvrBARS reacts to errors, but dd_rescue has an option to skip the errors and just fill them in with zeros so the block addresses are preserved.

If your errors are sitting in free space or space occupied by a show, then you should be able to recover everything, possibly with a kickstart 57 (but only perform KS57 on the new drive, not the old one, or you'll just get stuck in a GSOD loop)
sfhub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 06:28 PM   #20
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Thanks. I cancelled the DvrBARS backup after it stalled for about 4 hours on a particular read error and couldn't get past it.

I'm now booting into MFSLive CD and it isn't recognizing any of the drives. fdisk -l shows nothing and I can't get mfsinfo on any drives. I am not a linux guy so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Old failing drive and new drive are both connected directly to mobo via SATA.

And I was really hoping to have this back together today.....
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 08:19 PM   #21
sfhub
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,268
After it boots, press shift page up to scroll up and see if there are any error messages for the hard drive
sfhub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 11:13 PM   #22
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
I generally hit DEL or F1 or whatever's necessary to get into the CMOS settings to see if the computer itself is seeing the drives before any operating system is loaded if I think that's going to be an issue.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 11:24 PM   #23
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Ya the computer sees the drives fine but I think MFS Live doesn't have the support for my disk controllers or something. I also tried the Ubuntu Rescue Remix but couldn't get that to work either. Even with no drives connected it would not boot from CD. Just gave me a perpetual gray screen of death.

Finally I made a bootable USB drive of Fedora and then downloaded ddrescue for it. I know that's probably cheating for many of you but I'm not a programmer or Linux person at all so it was the best I could figure out. It is working and ddrescue is now running. Looks like it is going to take many hours. The command I ran was:

ddrescue -f -n /dev/sda /dev/sdb tivo-rescue.log

I confirmed that Fedora saw the correct drives at the correct locations so I'm crossing my fingers!

I wish DvrBARS would have worked but maybe the drive is too far gone for it to read through. Fedora detects 358 bad sectors.

Thanks very much for everyone's help so far! I know I'm a complete noob with this stuff.....
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 11:40 PM   #24
sfhub
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
ddrescue -f -n /dev/sda /dev/sdb tivo-rescue.log
I don't know how different ddrescue is from dd_rescue.

I used dd_rescue to recover my drives with the following flags:
  • dd_rescue -A -v /dev/sda /dev/sdb
  • -A Always write blocks, zeroed if err (def=no)
  • -v verbose operation

sfhub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 11:48 PM   #25
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib View Post
...I know I'm a complete noob with this stuff.....
In many ways I still am, despite all the learning the hard way I've done so far.

So don't feel like the Lone Ranger.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2013, 05:43 AM   #26
ggieseke
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
DvrBARS breaks the entire drive into 2MB blocks. During backup operations, if it hits an error reading a block that it had previously decided to backup it pops up an error message and waits for you to click OK to continue. That 2MB block gets filled with zeroes and it doesn't attempt to break it down further like dd_rescue.

Adding an option to ignore those errors and just log them has been requested before, I just haven't done it yet.

Sorry it didn't work out for you, but I'm glad you liked the UI.
ggieseke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2013, 09:35 AM   #27
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub View Post
I don't know how different ddrescue is from dd_rescue.

I used dd_rescue to recover my drives with the following flags:
  • dd_rescue -A -v /dev/sda /dev/sdb
  • -A Always write blocks, zeroed if err (def=no)
  • -v verbose operation
As far as I can tell ddrescue does the same thing as dd_rescue. Some RPM's are called one and some are the other. In my case the flags I used were;

-f = force. Force overwrite of outfile. Needed when outfile is not a regular file, but a device or partition.

-n = no-split. Skip the splitting phase. Avoids spending a lot of time trying to rescue the most difficult parts of the file.
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2013, 09:38 AM   #28
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggieseke View Post
DvrBARS breaks the entire drive into 2MB blocks. During backup operations, if it hits an error reading a block that it had previously decided to backup it pops up an error message and waits for you to click OK to continue. That 2MB block gets filled with zeroes and it doesn't attempt to break it down further like dd_rescue.

Adding an option to ignore those errors and just log them has been requested before, I just haven't done it yet.

Sorry it didn't work out for you, but I'm glad you liked the UI.
It proceeded through numerous read errors for a long time but then got stalled on one in particular and would advance no further. Every so often I would get a read error with the same address and click "OK" and then it would churn away. But a few minutes later it would give me the same read error and the progress bar didn't move at all. This continued for 4+ hours until I cancelled the backup.

It sure seemed to me like it was stuck at that point. I really like the tool and appreciate you working so hard on it. Only detailing this in case it is helpful to you in terms of development.
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2013, 09:42 AM   #29
Muad'Dib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
In many ways I still am, despite all the learning the hard way I've done so far.

So don't feel like the Lone Ranger.
Thanks - I appreciate that!

UPDATE - it is all done. The ddrescue finished and I reassembled everything. Fired up the Tivo and immediately ran KS57 (thanks for the suggestion sfhub). That ran overnight and this AM the Tivo is up and running. My Season Passes and recordings and everything are present. It's possible some of the recordings won't work 100% but I'm fine with that.

Thanks for the help everyone! Hopefully it will be stable now for a good long while.
Muad'Dib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 01:04 AM   #30
ciper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
Do you consider GSmartControl superior to using the appropriate manufacturer's own diagnostic software off of the Ultimate Boot CD (or downloaded as a bootable .iso from the manufacturer's own site)?
I guess I shouldn't generalize but from what I have seen the manufacturer specific tools hide many of the features they decide aren't necessary for the normal end user where as GSmartControl shows you everything that is supported by the drive.
It's also much more convenient to run a tool straight from your OS rather than restarting into a custom bootable image, then back into your regular OS again.

On top of that SATA requires the support of hot plugging, so you could in fact connect the TivoHD drive to the computer without the need to shut down at all
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:22 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |