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Old 10-21-2013, 02:36 PM   #31
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But both of them had to have known that Kirkland was a dead man walking. Why not tell Jane everything right then?
Totally agree. They know red John has minions in law enforcement, and they've killed witnesses/prisioners before (one inside the CBI building,) and they really thought they'd get a chance to talk later?

If I was Kirkland, I wouldn't have gotten out of the van.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:48 PM   #32
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You mean Ray Haffner?
Yes. I keep forgetting that Reed is the actor's name, not the character's.
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:05 PM   #33
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If I was Kirkland, I wouldn't have gotten out of the van.
I don't think that was an option, since Kirkland surely realized the driver was complicit as well.

But running was stupid. Kirkland should have come to the edge of the van, got Reede to look away for a second (maybe by looking intently behind Reede), and then jumped on Reede and maybe used the chain as a weapon. Then get Reede's gun and shoot the driver. Probably worse than a 50/50 chance at surviving, but that is better than a near 100% chance of dying if he runs.
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:21 PM   #34
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So if the FBI agent is part of the Tyger conspiracy, then the sheriff and Bertram probably are as well (based on that meeting the 3 of them were having in Bertram's office?), and probably none of them are Red John (if any of them were, I would think the body language of the other 2 in the meeting would have been completely different). So it's either Reed or Styles.
The other members of the conspiracy might not necessarily know who RJ is, so I'm not sure what you are getting at with body language.

Last season, before the seven were revealed, I thought someone high up from Visualize was the most likely suspect, since RJ has such fanatical devotion with many of his minions, as well as apparent connections with politicians and law enforcement. But I did not think it was Stiles himself. It could still be Ray Haffner, who is a member of Visualize. But RJ is also heavily invested in Tyger, Tyger, and I don't recall seeing any evidence that Haffner is in the Tyger conspiracy. Maybe it is Haffner working together with one or more of the Tyger conspiracy people.

But this Tyger conspiracy is interesting, since it provides the kind of connections and information that would help RJ do what he does. Although it does not easily explain the fanatical devotion of his minions. Reede did say something about it being bigger than Kirkland knew, so maybe there is something else that could explain that.

Here is my suspect list, with the most likely first:

Haffner (with a partner, maybe Bertram, Reede, or Mcallister)
Bertram
Reede
Mcallister
Stiles

Now that we know that Kirkland got a fake list, I am at a loss how to explain RJ knowing the seven suspects. I suppose some minion could still have been carefully watching Jane's room before and after Kirkland stole the fake list (hidden camera?). There was probably enough information in that room, over the many weeks Jane was working there, to deduce the suspect list, but RJ or minions would have to have gone through days and days of footage to figure it out. And Jane should have found a hidden camera, as obsessive as he is. So I'm baffled.

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Old 10-21-2013, 04:45 PM   #35
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I don't think that was an option, since Kirkland surely realized the driver was complicit as well.

But running was stupid. Kirkland should have come to the edge of the van, got Reede to look away for a second (maybe by looking intently behind Reede), and then jumped on Reede and maybe used the chain as a weapon. Then get Reede's gun and shoot the driver. Probably worse than a 50/50 chance at surviving, but that is better than a near 100% chance of dying if he runs.
He either could've have fought like you said, or forced the FBI agent to shoot him in the van therefore making it harder to say that he was shot while escaping.

Anything other than let himself be killed like a siting duck.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:34 PM   #36
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Oh and Van Pelt sure lost all her pregnacy weight. No need for a "Is Amanda Righetti fat?" thread!
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:58 AM   #37
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I don't see why the Homeland agent, Kirkland?, would take the first body and drive it all the way back to wherever he dumped it. Since he was in the woods he would have dumped it there. The story should have started with several people previously prosecuted? apprehended? by CBI have disappeared.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:27 AM   #38
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Oh and Van Pelt sure lost all her pregnacy weight. No need for a "Is Amanda Righetti fat?" thread!
nice abs, particularly impressive after have a baby not that long ago.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:42 AM   #39
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As far as I'm concerned, Bradley Whitford was Red John. The writers have just been jerking us around since Jane killed him a couple seasons back in a very satisfying season-ending episode.

I can't wait until this season is over and they hopefully finally move on.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:30 AM   #40
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Not sure how I feel about them using the "Tiger, Tiger" conspiracy to provide the show with an over arching 'quest' after Red John has been dealt with, as seems to be their intention.

Or am I reading too much into this?
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:56 AM   #41
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Not sure how I feel about them using the "Tiger, Tiger" conspiracy to provide the show with an over arching 'quest' after Red John has been dealt with, as seems to be their intention.

Or am I reading too much into this?
No, I read it the same way. All of these shows feel they need a "mythology" or side story to keep everyone's interest. I can trace it at least back to "Profiler" & "Millennium" in 1996.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:59 AM   #42
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Not sure how I feel about them using the "Tiger, Tiger" conspiracy to provide the show with an over arching 'quest' after Red John has been dealt with, as seems to be their intention.

Or am I reading too much into this?
That was my interpretation as well, that once they kill RJ this season, they'll need something to do next season, and that's what TT is.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:00 AM   #43
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[pedant]BTW... it's "Tyger, Tyger", not "Tiger, Tiger"[/pedant]


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Old 10-22-2013, 10:43 AM   #44
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Not sure how I feel about them using the "Tiger, Tiger" conspiracy to provide the show with an over arching 'quest' after Red John has been dealt with, as seems to be their intention.

Or am I reading too much into this?
Quote:
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No, I read it the same way. All of these shows feel they need a "mythology" or side story to keep everyone's interest. I can trace it at least back to "Profiler" & "Millennium" in 1996.
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That was my interpretation as well, that once they kill RJ this season, they'll need something to do next season, and that's what TT is.
I read it the same exact way, and mentioned it to my wife, but I was confused, since I thought that this was the last season.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:23 AM   #45
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I read it the same exact way, and mentioned it to my wife, but I was confused, since I thought that this was the last season.
There has been no hint of that. (Season structure spoilers)
Spoiler:
The Red John story will wrap up in the next very few episodes, and then the show will take off in a somewhat new direction, with some cast changes. They're clearly still in it for the long haul, since they're rebooting/reorganizing/restructuring/re-whatevering instead of just dragging Red John out to the season's end.

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Old 10-22-2013, 11:43 AM   #46
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There has been no hint of that. (Season structure spoilers)
Spoiler:
The Red John story will wrap up in the next very few episodes, and then the show will take off in a somewhat new direction, with some cast changes. They're clearly still in it for the long haul, since they're rebooting/reorganizing/restructuring/re-whatevering instead of just dragging Red John out to the season's end.
I'm not sure why I thought it was the last season.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:07 PM   #47
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I'm not sure why I thought it was the last season.
You were just HOPING it was the last season.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:49 PM   #48
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No, I read it the same way. All of these shows feel they need a "mythology" or side story to keep everyone's interest. I can trace it at least back to "Profiler" & "Millennium" in 1996.
The X Files before them ...
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:28 PM   #49
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I also read somewhere that this was the last season. And as far as I'm concerned after last episode they need to just end the show. All this Tiger, Tiger crap just don't make sense. The wife and I just looked at each other after the show and said why did we waste our time with this show.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:08 PM   #50
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The Tyger has been part of the show for years. Red John quoted it to Jane when he saved his life.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:27 PM   #51
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The Tyger has been part of the show for years. Red John quoted it to Jane when he saved his life.
Right. I was surprised to see all the posts from people who did not seem to know this.

Also, in season 3, Bertram quoted another William Blake poem to LaRoche, which made it look like Bertram might be RJ, way back then, since RJ had already been established as a William Blake fan by him quoting Tyger, Tyger. And Todd Johnson's dying words in the hospital, spoken to Jane, were "Tyger, Tyger". Then this season, Partridge's last words, spoken to Lisbon, were "Tyger, Tyger".

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Old 10-22-2013, 04:33 PM   #52
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So now, the question is... is RJ part of the TT conspiracy, or was he just giving Jane a heads up about them?
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:56 PM   #53
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So now, the question is... is RJ part of the TT conspiracy, or was he just giving Jane a heads up about them?
I think RJ needs all the help he can get to pull off the things that he does, so I lean towards him being part of the Tyger conspiracy (as well as being associated with Visualize). But that does not necessarily mean that everyone in the Tyger conspiracy knows about RJ.

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Old 10-23-2013, 10:57 PM   #54
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I'm disappointed that "Tyger Tyger" has turned into the secret passphrase for some law enforcement conspiracy group. It feels cheap and out of place, and a retcon. It doesn't seem to fit the original introduction of the phrase into the series very well.

My money is on Reede Smith as Red John, only because Brett Stiles is too obvious a choice.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:47 AM   #55
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So who has a tattoo?

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I'm disappointed that "Tyger Tyger" has turned into the secret passphrase for some law enforcement conspiracy group. It feels cheap and out of place, and a retcon. It doesn't seem to fit the original introduction of the phrase into the series very well.
Which leads to my confusion. I thought Tiger Tiger was a catch-phrase for RJ for all these years. But now it's the secret handshake for a LEO cabal? Or am I missing something?

Also, not sure what's going on with the driver who shot <forgot his name> who was escaping but not escaping. What's up with the PTSD? Plus, there is no way that entire incident passes muster, if *anyone* takes a closer look.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:04 AM   #56
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Which leads to my confusion. I thought Tiger Tiger was a catch-phrase for RJ for all these years. But now it's the secret handshake for a LEO cabal? Or am I missing something?
It is Tyger, not Tiger. Anyway, we now know that it is both. As busyba mentioned in this thread, either RJ is a part of the Tyger conspiracy (most likely I think), or he was trying to lead Patrick to it. As for why RJ would tell Patrick about Tyger, I have no clue.

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Also, not sure what's going on with the driver who shot <forgot his name> who was escaping but not escaping. What's up with the PTSD? Plus, there is no way that entire incident passes muster, if *anyone* takes a closer look.
It's a good thing for them that they have lots of Tyger connections to cover stuff like that up.

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Old 10-28-2013, 08:00 AM   #57
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So who has a tattoo?
I'm not sure any of the suspects do. There were three dots of blood on the PI's arm as she was dying. They made a big show of Jane smearing them.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:01 AM   #58
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I have to give Red John credit for knowing Cho's type. The girl he used for the honey trap was very similar to the hooker that he hooked up with a season or two ago. She had the same look and mannerisms.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:02 AM   #59
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And they seem to be trying really hard to make it look like Haffner is RJ, which makes me no longer think that it's him.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:05 AM   #60
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I told my wife that I'm about 90% sure that VanPelt(sp) and/or hubby will be targeted by RJ before this is all done. They are really starting to push the lovey dovey marriage stuff a bit too much lately. Hubby telling Cho how deeply in love he is and can't live without her blah blah. Same kind of stuff coming from her to some extent.

I think RJ will hit where it hurts Jane, that being his closest friend(s) that he works with.
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