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Old 10-09-2013, 11:25 AM   #1
kbmb
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Roamio Plus Gigabit performance

I currently have a 4th Gen Airport Extreme that's wired to a Linksys 10/100 switch that my Roamio Plus is connected to.

Using kmttg on a Windows 7 machine, when I go to transfer a show using that setup I get around 85 Mbps transfer (according to kmttg).

Curiously, I bypassed the 10/100 switch to see what increase in speeds I would get using a Gigabit connection. The same transfer was now 128 Mbps.

Shouldn't the gigabit connection be higher than that? Or does the Tivo and kmttg have to do things that add overhead?

Also noticed that in my DHCP client list, the Roamio Plus has 2 MAC addresses? I would imagine one would be the wireless and the other the wired.....but I have the Roamio setup to only be wired? Why would both be showing up? I've never connected my Roamio via wireless and neither of those addresses are in the wireless clients list. Unless they have different chips for 10/100 and 1000?

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Old 10-09-2013, 12:10 PM   #2
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The two addresses are for Tivo core functions and the stream functions.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:22 PM   #3
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The two addresses are for Tivo core functions and the stream functions.
Cool. Thanks. Interesting to know.

-Kevin
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:53 PM   #4
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I've always been disappointed with the speed of gigabit Ethernet. In the real world, I typically get about twice the speed of 100bT.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:05 PM   #5
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There's some overhead on the TiVo as it needs to decrypt, demux, remux, re-encrypt while transferring which makes it CPU limited. That's why series 4 transfers were faster than series 3 and now series 5 transfers are faster than series 4. Depending what computer you are using and where you are writing to you may be I/O write speed limited. You *may* be able to speed up by using TS Transfers option in kmttg, but that won't do you much good unless you are using VideoRedo to decrypt instead of tivodecode.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:15 PM   #6
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Has anyone done a head-to-head of PS vs. TS on a Plus or Pro? I only have a Base, and they both max out the port. The difference is dramatic on a Premiere.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:16 PM   #7
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Testing this, I can transfer a .Tivo file from my Mac to my PC connected to the Airport Extreme via gigabit and I max out at a transfer speed of around 282 Mbps. This is initiating the transfer from the Mac to a shared Windows folder.

Going the other way, transferring from the PC to the Mac (again using the Mac to copy a file from a shared folder), I get a much higher 464 Mbps....not sure why it's faster.

So clearly, the overall Tivo transfers are much slower than typical computer to computer transfers.

Granted....coming from a TivoHD, the transfers out of Tivo are 10x faster so I'm happy about that.


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Old 10-09-2013, 02:25 PM   #8
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I've always been disappointed with the speed of gigabit Ethernet. In the real world, I typically get about twice the speed of 100bT.
Gigabit Ethernet is 10x faster than 100 Mb Ethernet. The equipment on each end is frequently the limiting factor. So when you saw "disappointing" performance, it simple meant that whatever machines you were using could not maintain a higher sustained speed to/from their network interfaces.

The real value of gigabit Ethernet is when many machines are all sharing a network - no single machine may need all of the available bandwidth, but when you add all the traffic together it's a different story.

TiVo Roamio cannot send data at 1 Gb / second; I'm surprised it gets above 100 Mb / second.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #9
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Repeated the Mac to PC copy but this time accessing the file FROM the PC.

The file copy dialog topped out at 117 MB/s (936 Mbps).
But Resource Monitor topped out at 404 Mbps.

Guessing one isn't correct

-Kevin

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Gigabit Ethernet is 10x faster than 100 Mb Ethernet. The equipment on each end is frequently the limiting factor. So when you saw "disappointing" performance, it simple meant that whatever machines you were using could not maintain a higher sustained speed to/from their network interfaces.

The real value of gigabit Ethernet is when many machines are all sharing a network - no single machine may need all of the available bandwidth, but when you add all the traffic together it's a different story.

TiVo Roamio cannot send data at 1 Gb / second; I'm surprised it gets above 100 Mb / second.

Then I'm curious, why would Tivo put in a gigabit ethernet card in the Plus and Pro if the machine can't utilize it? Clearly based on my original transfer, even though it's not getting anywhere near 1 Gb speeds......it is an increase when connected via gigabit.

-Kevin
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:41 PM   #10
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:53 PM   #11
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Then I'm curious, why would Tivo put in a gigabit ethernet card in the Plus and Pro if the machine can't utilize it? Clearly based on my original transfer, even though it's not getting anywhere near 1 Gb speeds......it is an increase when connected via gigabit.
It is taking advantage of it seeing as you are getting > 100Mbps speeds, and also the Pro and Plus machines have integrated MoCA 1.1 which is also > 100 Mbps and it's likely a combo ethernet/MoCA SOC being used. Base Roamio doesn't have integrated MoCA so cheaper to go with 10/100 for just ethernet.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:53 PM   #12
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...
Also noticed that in my DHCP client list, the Roamio Plus has 2 MAC addresses? I would imagine one would be the wireless and the other the wired.....but I have the Roamio setup to only be wired? Why would both be showing up? I've never connected my Roamio via wireless and neither of those addresses are in the wireless clients list. Unless they have different chips for 10/100 and 1000?

-Kevin
Also, what Ive found most curious is that the wired port and the wireless have the same MAC address.
When I connected wired and wirelessly I noticed in my DHCP logs that the MACs were the same.

I guess thats to prevent both interfaces from being active at the same time, unlike a PC?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:01 PM   #13
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Then I'm curious, why would Tivo put in a gigabit ethernet card in the Plus and Pro if the machine can't utilize it? Clearly based on my original transfer, even though it's not getting anywhere near 1 Gb speeds......it is an increase when connected via gigabit.

-Kevin
I doubt you could find an ongoing supply of 100Mbit adapters. There's plenty for sale, but I wouldn't setup new system production line and software using a part you may not get another batch of.

Besides 128Mbit is still better than 100Mbit and even with 100Mbit adapter, I doubt you would get close to the 100Mbit rate.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:02 PM   #14
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I doubt you could find an ongoing supply of 100Mbit adapters. There's plenty for sale, but I wouldn't setup new system production line and software using a part you may not get another batch of.
But they are putting just 10/100 in the base Roamio.

-Kevin
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:04 PM   #15
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Then I'm curious, why would Tivo put in a gigabit ethernet card in the Plus and Pro if the machine can't utilize it? Clearly based on my original transfer, even though it's not getting anywhere near 1 Gb speeds......it is an increase when connected via gigabit.

-Kevin
Tivo did not put in a gigabit ethernet card, because there is no ethernet card in the machine to begin with. The SoC used is an off the shelf part and the ethernet is a minor portion of it.
Inside the Tivo Roamio Plus/Pro there is a 1Gb ethernet switch. Connected to the switch is the Plus/Pro SoC (effectively the DVR), the MoCA adapter, the external ethernet port, and the Stream hardware. Now they have integrated much of this onto a single board, but the setup is _almost_ the same as taking the Roamio Basic and the other components and hooking them all up in separate boxes. Now the Roamio Basic's SoC appears to have only 100Mb ethernet integrated, so you would only be able to pull from it at 100Mb.

As a side note, this setup is the same as the Premiere Elite/4/XL4. The only difference in those is that S4 SoC only had 100Mb ethernet integrated. So even though the device would connect to the rest of your hardware at 1Gbps, you could only pull from the Tivo DVR at 100Mbps.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:04 PM   #16
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But they are putting just 10/100 in the base Roamio.

-Kevin
They didn't put on in the Roamio Base. The SoC that they got to choose from had 100Mbit.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:07 PM   #17
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It is taking advantage of it seeing as you are getting > 100Mbps speeds, and also the Pro and Plus machines have integrated MoCA 1.1 which is also > 100 Mbps and it's likely a combo ethernet/MoCA SOC being used. Base Roamio doesn't have integrated MoCA so cheaper to go with 10/100 for just ethernet.
I bet there isn't a version of the SoC that they used with 1Gb.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:07 PM   #18
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Tivo did not put in a gigabit ethernet card, because there is no ethernet card in the machine to begin with. The SoC used is an off the shelf part and the ethernet is a minor portion of it.
Inside the Tivo Roamio Plus/Pro there is a 1Gb ethernet switch. Connected to the switch is the Plus/Pro SoC (effectively the DVR), the MoCA adapter, the external ethernet port, and the Stream hardware. Now they have integrated much of this onto a single board, but the setup is _almost_ the same as taking the Roamio Basic and the other components and hooking them all up in separate boxes. Now the Roamio Basic's SoC appears to have only 100Mb ethernet integrated, so you would only be able to pull from it at 100Mb.

As a side note, this setup is the same as the Premiere Elite/4/XL4. The only difference in those is that S4 SoC only had 100Mb ethernet integrated. So even though the device would connect to the rest of your hardware at 1Gbps, you could only pull from the Tivo DVR at 100Mbps.
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They didn't put on in the Roamio Base. The SoC that they got to choose from had 100Mbit.
Thanks for the explanation. I only used "card" in my previous statement because I'm networking challenged

I had assumed everything is chip based now.

Regardless of setup.....I was hoping for a bit better performance from the Gigabit side on transfers.

-Kevin
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:19 PM   #19
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Thanks for the explanation. I only used "card" in my previous statement because I'm networking challenged

I had assumed everything is chip based now.

Regardless of setup.....I was hoping for a bit better performance from the Gigabit side on transfers.

-Kevin
I agree. I wouldn't ever expect anywhere near 1Gbps, but I was hoping for 200+ Mbps. My current reading is 117 Mbps (via MoCA). Maybe I will hook directly into the box and see what I can get a little later.

When you were computing your throughput numbers how were they computed? Remember that for networking 1Gbps means 1000^3 bits per second, not 1024^3 bits per second. When talking Mega, that is a 5% error when making the comparison. (Your 128 Mbps would become 134 Mbps.)
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:27 PM   #20
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I agree. I wouldn't ever expect anywhere near 1Gbps, but I was hoping for 200+ Mbps. My current reading is 117 Mbps (via MoCA). Maybe I will hook directly into the box and see what I can get a little later.

When you were computing your throughput numbers how were they computed? Remember that for networking 1Gbps means 1000^3 bits per second, not 1024^3 bits per second. When talking Mega, that is a 5% error when making the comparison. (Your 128 Mbps would become 134 Mbps.)
Whatever raw number I got, if it wasn't in Mbps I did the conversion in Google or Wolfram.

kmttg was giving me Mb/sec
OS X activity monitor shows MB/sec
Windows Resource Monitor shows B/sec

So for the kmttg I wasn't doing any conversion, as the 85 and 128 Mbps numbers were directly from the app.

All the others I was letting Google convert them. Although, whether right or wrong, any 5% difference wouldn't matter here since the gigabit speeds from the Tivo are so much slower that what I was hoping for.

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Old 10-09-2013, 03:36 PM   #21
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Is the ethernet port on the Mini only 10/100? I'm pretty sure my switch is indicating a 10/100 connection to my Mini.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:42 PM   #22
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This is all well and good, but what does it really matter? If you can use multiple minis with HD quality from a base unit without problems, who cares? Is there a potential problem someplace?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:52 PM   #23
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The OP is using kmttg though, so the faster the transfer the better.

Sure, its nice that between TiVo devices its fast enough, but when getting the files to the desktop you want that as fast as possible, especially if theres a big queue to go through.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:16 PM   #24
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Ok, so use case 1 is when there are lots of files to transfer to a PC. I get that it will transfer faster, but that seems, in most cases, a small benefit overall unless someone is really looking to watch shows concurrently on a local network or PC. However, if having this increased speed allowed transferring more quickly to an iPad, I could see the benefit.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:22 PM   #25
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The OP is using kmttg though, so the faster the transfer the better.

Sure, its nice that between TiVo devices its fast enough, but when getting the files to the desktop you want that as fast as possible, especially if theres a big queue to go through.

Exactly. Again, this is all a first-world problem right. I'm not really complaining as much as I'm curious to understand why the Tivo gigabit transfers seem slower than I would expect. Tivo says it's a 10/100/1000 port on the device, so naturally I kind of expected performance closer to a local PC or PC transfer (minus any work Tivo needs to do).

Take for example a 7.45 GB show I just downloaded.

Using kmttg it took 8:27 at (117.6 Mbps) hooked up via a gigabit connection.

I then transferred the same file from my PC to my Mac using the same gigabit connection and it took 2:24 at (434 Mbps).

It's more my curiosity as to why the performance of gigabit on Tivo is not that much more than 100 Mbps connection.


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Old 10-09-2013, 04:31 PM   #26
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Ok, so use case 1 is when there are lots of files to transfer to a PC. I get that it will transfer faster, but that seems, in most cases, a small benefit overall unless someone is really looking to watch shows concurrently on a local network or PC. However, if having this increased speed allowed transferring more quickly to an iPad, I could see the benefit.
True on the iPad streaming, although I think with an iPad you'd be maxed out at 300 Mbps on an N connection....and even with that you'd have to have a perfect setup and the network overhead will still knock 40% off the rate.

Transferring that same 7.45 file from my Mac Pro to my MacBook Air connected via N with a transmit rate of 300, I still max out at about 185 Mbps.

So yes, the gigabit on the Tivo would help.....and as you can see, it's still below what I would expect.

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Old 10-09-2013, 04:33 PM   #27
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Idiot here, so patience is appreciated, lol. Using Tivo Desktop with new Roamio base. I used to transfer shows from Premiere to laptop over wireless. This was done very slowly. Basically, the shows transferred in realtime or slower. I'm all wired now on a gigabit network using a gigabit usb 2.0 adapter on the laptop. This doesn't give me gigabit bit speeds on laptop, but has bumped it up. Tried transfer from Premiere to laptop and then from Roamio to laptop to compare performance. Premiere transferred shows in half the running time of shows while Roamio transferred shows in a third of the run time. I'm curious if anybody is running an all wired gigabit network that includes a PC with a gigabit connection and a Roamio Pro or Plus. If so, what are the transfer times? Thanks folks.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:36 PM   #28
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Idiot here, so patience is appreciated, lol. Using Tivo Desktop with new Roamio base. I used to transfer shows from Premiere to laptop over wireless. This was done very slowly. Basically, the shows transferred in realtime or slower. I'm all wired now on a gigabit network using a gigabit usb 2.0 adapter on the laptop. This doesn't give me gigabit bit speeds on laptop, but has bumped it up. Tried transfer from Premiere to laptop and then from Roamio to laptop to compare performance. Premiere transferred shows in half the running time of shows while Roamio transferred shows in a third of the run time. I'm curious if anybody is running an all wired gigabit network that includes a PC with a gigabit connection and a Roamio Pro or Plus. If so, what are the transfer times? Thanks folks.
That's what I just ran. I have the Roamio Plus hooked up directly to Airport Extreme on a gigabit connection. PC hooked up on same connection.

I transferred a 60 minute program with a file size of 7.45 GB in 8:27.

EDIT: BTW, same program instead transferred via a 10/100 switch, completed in 11:56 at (83 Mbps).

This was using kmttg. Not sure if Tivo Desktop would be slower or not.

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Old 10-09-2013, 05:00 PM   #29
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My curiosity is piqued now.
I think when I get home Ill do some GigE transfers as well.

Ill have to fire up a shelved Windows laptop since I only use a MacBook Air, but I am just too curious how fast it will go on GigE connection!
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:02 PM   #30
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Has anyone done a head-to-head of PS vs. TS on a Plus or Pro? I only have a Base, and they both max out the port. The difference is dramatic on a Premiere.
On mine I still see a slight difference with PS being 1-2Mbps slower then TS. I'm connecting via MoCa so I'm constrained by the 10/100 port on the MoCa adapter.
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