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Old 09-26-2013, 03:09 PM   #31
socrplyr
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Originally Posted by bradleys View Post
I have said for a while that I think TiVo should bite the bullet and update the software to support h.264 on the S3 models.

With that said - expecting some dramatic discount on a Roamio isn't reasonable and seems more then just a little self serving. If they were to do that, then I would be all in with my two S3 units. I might even try to drag the S2 unit out of the closet and upgrade it as well! No, that option would put TiVo out of business in a minute!!!

However, the h.264 does hurt the secondary market on TiVo's and I do think that market brings value to TiVo. It gives hesitant people an opportunity to get hooked on the environment and more likely to upgrade their TiVo's in the future.

It goes to opportunity cost for TiVo, what value does upgrading the S3's bring them? Good will of existing customers? Bah... They don't even count the lifetime S3's as part of the financial install base any longer. A secondary market feeder that can bring future revenues and sales? Maybe...

But just because I can make a case for it, doesn't mean they will move forward with it - and by the middle of next year I will have retired all of my S3 models anyway, so the impact is minimal to me.

So, if that is planned obsolescence - so be it.

btw - I think it was pretty nice of them to offer you the Premier upgrade discout. I wouldn't take it either, but it was at least a resonable gesture.

I am putting my two S3's onto ebay soon, if I can get $250 - I will be pretty happy with the overall investment. (I have fios, and I haven't actually experienced a channel I can't tune yet - don't know why.)
I don't think $100 off a $1250 purchase is a dramatic discount (I didn't mention this originally, but I would be replacing 2 TivoHDs w/ a Pro and a Mini). I bet it will be bested by holiday time discounts. You must also remember, they offered me the $100 ($200) discount off of service. Service for the Premiere and service for the Roamio are identical.

Financially, I bet that neither offering a discount or fixing it is worthwhile to them. I am a consumer though and I don't always think in financial terms. There is some level of good will to be had.

I do agree that they tried to do something with the Premiere and that was somewhat of a nice gesture. However, right now they are willing to make much bigger gestures elsewhere (Woot, etc.). The net discount offer to me was $150. If you include the retail price of the stream, the Woot discount was $240. They are trying to get rid of these boxes. These boxes won't be supported into the future, just like the TivoHD. I am likely to have some similar problem in a couple more years. That isn't much of a gesture. I know the CSR was working within what he/she could do. I don't expect to get anything more from Tivo.
I just didn't like the response, so I thought I would post about it.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:13 PM   #32
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Maybe maybe not. Don't forget the Netflix is H.264. Also, H.264 decode would pretty much be solely decided by the SoC. I am pretty sure the one from the TivoHD supports it. Netflix is a lower bit rate than cable H.264, so maybe there is a rate limitation on it. It is possible, but in all likelihood, Tivo did not make the effort to put in support. When their next product came out, they abandoned the S3 and and never added it.
Actually the Netflix client the S3 units use stream VC-1, not H.264. However Amazon HD does use H.264 and there is a way to push H.264 from a PC to a S3 via pyTiVo so we know the hardware supports H.264 decoding. However that does not mean there isn't some other limitation that's preventing them from supporting H.264 broadcasts.

My point is we really don't know their reasoning on this. In all likelihood they probably could have supported it via a software upgrade and simply chose not to. Was it because they wanted to push people to buy a new TiVo? Or was it because by the time it was needed the platform was obsolete? I think it was actually a little of both. They didn't add H.264 support to the Premiere units until 2012. At that point they had almost no incentive to back port it to the S3 units and extra incentive not to. If you consider a decision not to upgrade a platform that had not been sold in 2 years "planned obsolescence" then you're probably right.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:21 PM   #33
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I didn't mention this originally, but I would be replacing 2 TivoHDs w/ a Pro and a Mini
That's a significant upgrade. You're going from 4 tuners to 6, 320GB of storage to 3TB, and getting a built in Stream, MoCa and Wifi. You'll also be able to return one of your CableCARDs, saving whatever fees are associated with that, and be able to stream recordings between rooms, even as they are recordoing, rather then having to use the slow transfer method that had to wait until the recording was done to work.

That must have some value to you, no?

Plus think of it this way... Say you get $400 selling the HDs, that brings the price down to $850. If you use those for say 4 years you'll only have paid $18/mo, which I'm sure is cheaper then the DVR offered by your cable company. Plus the Roamio and Mini will still have value so you can sell them to subsidize the upgrade to the next big thing.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:32 PM   #34
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I don't think $100 off a $1250 purchase is a dramatic discount.
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Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
My opinion is TiVo should either fix the issue or offer people negatively affected a real discount on a Roamio with lifetime (like $500 total).
I was looking at this, which depending on model, would be a 50% or better discount off of the retail price.


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You must also remember, they offered me the $100 ($200) discount off of service. Service for the Premiere and service for the Roamio are identical
But it doesn't bring a stampede of people using an aging S3 to leverage a discount on a Roamio... I also don't think that you are going to see any holiday discounts on the Roamio line this year, maybe next year. By all reports sales are exceeding production at this point, so I think the price is going to stay right where it is.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:31 PM   #35
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I was looking at this, which depending on model, would be a 50% or better discount off of the retail price.
My take was they should offer $100 below current price (unit & lifetime service) with MSD, that is not really a big deal for TiVo but still gives the affected users something that no one else can get now so $500, $700, & $900.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:36 PM   #36
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That's a significant upgrade. You're going from 4 tuners to 6, 320GB of storage to 3TB, and getting a built in Stream, MoCa and Wifi. You'll also be able to return one of your CableCARDs, saving whatever fees are associated with that, and be able to stream recordings between rooms, even as they are recordoing, rather then having to use the slow transfer method that had to wait until the recording was done to work.

That must have some value to you, no?

Plus think of it this way... Say you get $400 selling the HDs, that brings the price down to $850. If you use those for say 4 years you'll only have paid $18/mo, which I'm sure is cheaper then the DVR offered by your cable company. Plus the Roamio and Mini will still have value so you can sell them to subsidize the upgrade to the next big thing.
I agree that it is a substantial upgrade. (Thus, why I asked for a small discount, not to pay zero.) I don't see the Premiere 4 at $500 + a Mini at $250 as much of an upgrade. Same number of tuners, 50% more storage (which isn't an issue for me). CableCards are $5 per month, so the pay off time is 12.5 years. I don't use Hulu and HD Interface doesn't really get me anything. I am willing to pay to upgrade (especially if it is on my own terms). This isn't on my own terms, so I was seeing if I could get some consideration for that. Unfortunately for me the answer was no. That wasn't surprising as a response. Just disappointing.

In general, I "invest" in things. I buy things that will last me a long time. I pay for lifetime as it will pay off in the long term. Here I feel that term was cut short.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:41 PM   #37
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One thing to be aware of...

As of right now the Stream, the part that sends video to an iPad, does not work with H.264 channels. Not sure if that effects your buying decision in any way but just an FYI.

See TiVo isn't even 100% up on H.264 support for their current line of products. There is no way they're going to go back and add it to a discontinued product from 3+ years ago.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:42 PM   #38
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One more thing I just realized. If I sell my old boxes, I will now lose my MSD for future purchases. That is annoying, since I am being pushed into this purchase.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:44 PM   #39
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One thing to be aware of...

As of right now the Stream, the part that sends video to an iPad, does not work with H.264 channels. Not sure if that effects your buying decision in any way but just an FYI.

See TiVo isn't even 100% up on H.264 support for their current line of products. There is no way they're going to go back and add it to a discontinued product from 3+ years ago.
That is nice to know. It doesn't change my choice right now. I have no intention to use the stream anytime soon. It is just for the future.

Yes, I don't expect Tivo to add it to the old product either. That is why I was focused more on the getting something for the fact that they didn't implement it in the first place.
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:14 PM   #40
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One more thing I just realized. If I sell my old boxes, I will now lose my MSD for future purchases. That is annoying, since I am being pushed into this purchase.
If you use the coupon code PLSR at checkout, rather then MSD, you'll get full lifetime for the same price. (it's a $100 off code)
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:39 PM   #41
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If you use the coupon code PLSR at checkout, rather then MSD, you'll get full lifetime for the same price. (it's a $100 off code)
Is that working right now?
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:55 PM   #42
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I used it a couple weeks ago. It's been around for years.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:20 PM   #43
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Alright, so I am a bit frustrated at Tivo here. Let me know if you think I am out of place in my thinking.

First off, I have a TivoHD and I now can't get some channels on Fios due to the MPEG4 changes. The first part of my frustration with Tivo comes with the fact that the TivoHD supports MPEG4 (as shown by the Australian Tivo and Netflix), so this is pure "planned obsolescence." It had been known for years that the cable companies were going to move to MPEG4.

That said, I called up Tivo a week ago and they offer me a deal that was apparently offered a while back. $50 off a Premiere 4 and $200 off lifetime service for it ($498 total). This is of course not a deal, since MSD wise I already get $100 off and the box is easily found at >$80 off. More specifically, an example would be Tivo selling them through Woot for $149 with an included Stream. With MSD that would be $548 total with the included stream. So really, Tivo wasn't offering me anything special (and in some ways a worse deal). The deal offer gets more offensive when you think about the fact that the Premiere is now an obsolete product to Tivo. They are trying to get me to spend $500 on an outdated product, that I have no idea if the core functionality will be broken tomorrow on.

Now, I fully believe that they should offer me something special. They chose to make the box obsolete ahead of its "lifetime." Really, I think I should get a free lifetime on the replacement box as a consolation for the fact that they "broke" it intentionally. (Maybe a bit harsh in words, but they could have easily provided the functionality.)

So I call them back today. I explain how I feel that they have wronged me by knowingly not implementing something they new would be used in the near future. Then I said that I don't want an already out of date box (Premiere). Could they just provide the $200 discount on a box that I am less likely to fall prey to the same issues in the next couple of years (Roamio)? After waiting for 15 or so minutes on the phone for the rep to talk to a supervisor. The answer is NO (no offer of any kind). Basically, Tivo's failure is my loss. I guess I didn't expect much, but this new Tivo would be my 5th. I didn't think I was asking for too much.

Sad thing is I am perfectly happy with my TivoHD, I don't need to upgrade. However, if I am forced to upgrade, I am not going to spend my money on something that is already out of date.

Done. Alright, frustration vented.

Did you happen to see this post?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...19#post9824319

Sounds like you ought to be able to get a much better deal out of them.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:00 PM   #44
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H.264 coming to FiOS channels is nothing new. We knew about it years ago. S3 boxes not decoding h.264 channels is not new either, we knew it years ago too. This was one of the reasons to upgrade years ago because there things have been well known for a while. I don't know why anyone would Expect TiVo to upgrade an S3 TiVo from two generations ago that stopped being sold over three years ago. That is just an irrational expectation.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:17 AM   #45
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H.264 coming to FiOS channels is nothing new. We knew about it years ago. S3 boxes not decoding h.264 channels is not new either, we knew it years ago too. This was one of the reasons to upgrade years ago because there things have been well known for a while. I don't know why anyone would Expect TiVo to upgrade an S3 TiVo from two generations ago that stopped being sold over three years ago. That is just an irrational expectation.
If one was paying monthly I would not be so sure that it's an irrational expectation to keep the product working or offer a upgrade path as any cable co does, but for Lifetime, that would be an irrational expectation.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:57 AM   #46
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First off, I have a TivoHD and I now can't get some channels on Fios due to the MPEG4 changes.
Which channels aren't you getting due to MPEG4 implementation on FIOS?

I have FIOS and all the channels that I receive that were mentioned as being changed to MPEG4 still work. I don't get them all, but all my HBO and Cinemax channels still work.

I was going by this list posted by aaronwt on 4/11/13.

ES.TV 558
HBO Family 906
ESPN Goal Line/Buzzer Beater 571
HBO Family (West) 907
Tennis Channel 592
HBO Latino 912
World Fishing Network 597
HBO Latino West 913
Cars.TV 599
MoreMax (West) 923
Pets.TV 633
Action Max 924
MyDestination.TV 674
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:01 AM   #47
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Which channels aren't you getting due to MPEG4 implementation on FIOS?

I have FIOS and all the channels that I receive that were mentioned as being changed to MPEG4 still work. I don't get them all, but all my HBO and Cinemax channels still work.

I was going by this list posted by aaronwt on 4/11/13.

ES.TV 558
HBO Family 906
ESPN Goal Line/Buzzer Beater 571
HBO Family (West) 907
Tennis Channel 592
HBO Latino 912
World Fishing Network 597
HBO Latino West 913
Cars.TV 599
MoreMax (West) 923
Pets.TV 633
Action Max 924
MyDestination.TV 674
Thriller Max 926
Recipe.TV 676
W Max 928
Comedy.TV 695
At Max 929
MGM HD 744
ESPN 3D 1002
Those look right. Most of those are using H.264. Although I can't double check which ones right now since I'm in a room with a Mini.
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:31 AM   #48
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I don't get them all, but all my HBO and Cinemax channels still work.
Those haven't actually been changed yet. The others in that list have, plus there are some new H.264 channels, like 735 (Sony) and 598 (BeIN).

I can assure you that the Series 3 does not in fact tune in the H.264 channels.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:22 AM   #49
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I used it a couple weeks ago. It's been around for years.
I tried it and it said invalid code.
Hmm. Is there a different place than the promo code place? Or something that needs to be done differently?
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:30 AM   #50
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I tried it and it said invalid code.
Hmm. Is there a different place than the promo code place? Or something that needs to be done differently?
Thanks,
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I just used the PLSR code last week with my replacement Roamio Pro.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:41 AM   #51
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I just used the PLSR code last week with my replacement Roamio Pro.
Did you order it from Tivo? Or did you buy locally and put it in when activating?
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:22 AM   #52
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Did you order it from Tivo? Or did you buy locally and put it in when activating?
It only works for units not purchased directly from Tivo. There is no place to enter the code when ordering the unit w/pre-activated service directly from Tivo.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:49 AM   #53
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Those haven't actually been changed yet. The others in that list have, plus there are some new H.264 channels, like 735 (Sony) and 598 (BeIN).

I can assure you that the Series 3 does not in fact tune in the H.264 channels.
Just for clarification Series 3 = TiVoHD, yes?

I don't get those 2 channels either. I do get the Tennis Channel on 592 and that was still working for me also on my HD and is on the list.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:14 PM   #54
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Just for clarification Series 3 = TiVoHD, yes
Yes
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:15 PM   #55
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Just for clarification Series 3 = TiVoHD, yes?
Yes.

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I don't get those 2 channels either. I do get the Tennis Channel on 592 and that was still working for me also on my HD and is on the list.
I missed that one, then. Tennis Channel has not been converted.
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:23 PM   #56
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This is such a BS argument. MPEG4 was absolutely KNOWN to be coming WAY before 2010. Frankly, back in 2007 there were clear discussions, and the sat/DBS providers had already started moving in that direction for the exact same reasons that everyone knew that MSOs would have to use at some point. Sure, the P3 was initially designed back around 2005/2006. However, it was marketed and SOLD as new for more than 5 years. By Tivo.

None of us know exactly why Tivo made the decisions that they made, however many actually expected VZ to move to MPEG4 well before they did. This is not the first time that Tivo has gone down a road that perhaps was not the best possible direction. I'm not saying they should need to plan for everything.

However.

This is Tivos ONLY business. Their ONLY means to stay relevant. If Tivo makes a decision that cripples their technology because they failed to effectively stay ahead of the market sufficiently that they can remain a leader, then it is an extremely poor reflection on their business model, and on their decision making process. It's just that simple. Period. Tivo totally and completely depends on content from the MSOs. It is VITAL to their interest to stay joined at the hip, test, test and more test, and to make nice with customers when they trip and fall from time to time. I find that Tivo met none of these particulars in this case.

Just my 2cents.
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:24 PM   #57
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I have a Tivo 3, Tivo HD and now a Roamio. I do not like that Tivo didn't update the software on the series 3 when mpeg4 became available. Don't they already have it working in other areas (Austrailia?).

I don't think they should be required to update it. I think they should. I consider it poor customer service and a hint of how things may move in the future. That may well keep me from purchasing in the future if they continue to make these type of decisions.

If they choose to quit updating the software for basic functionality, they should remove or lower the monthly service fee to a maintenance level.
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:03 PM   #58
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This is such a BS argument. MPEG4 was absolutely KNOWN to be coming WAY before 2010. Frankly, back in 2007 there were clear discussions, and the sat/DBS providers had already started moving in that direction for the exact same reasons that everyone knew that MSOs would have to use at some point. Sure, the P3 was initially designed back around 2005/2006. However, it was marketed and SOLD as new for more than 5 years. By Tivo.

None of us know exactly why Tivo made the decisions that they made, however many actually expected VZ to move to MPEG4 well before they did. This is not the first time that Tivo has gone down a road that perhaps was not the best possible direction. I'm not saying they should need to plan for everything.

However.

This is Tivos ONLY business. Their ONLY means to stay relevant. If Tivo makes a decision that cripples their technology because they failed to effectively stay ahead of the market sufficiently that they can remain a leader, then it is an extremely poor reflection on their business model, and on their decision making process. It's just that simple. Period. Tivo totally and completely depends on content from the MSOs. It is VITAL to their interest to stay joined at the hip, test, test and more test, and to make nice with customers when they trip and fall from time to time. I find that Tivo met none of these particulars in this case.

Just my 2cents.
The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.

Had they added the feature back when the S3 was still being sold, without proper testing, and it turned out to have some unforeseen flaw then they would have been forced to go back now and fix it even though the platform has been dead for over 3 years. That's not a wise business strategy.

It's not like TiVo has no option for these channels. You can buy a Premiere or a Roamio and these channels will work fine. The fact that you feel entitled to a major upgrade on box that was discontinued over 3 years ago is ridiculous. If you want to access these channels then buy a new TiVo.
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:12 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cram501 View Post
If they choose to quit updating the software for basic functionality, they should remove or lower the monthly service fee to a maintenance level.
I bet the vast majority of S3 units still in service have lifetime service. Back when the S3 units were still being sold lifetime was only $199-$299 and was considered written off the books after 3 years. So as far as TiVo is concerned those users are not actually paying for service any longer.

If you're actually paying for monthly service then you should really consider upgrading. You can get a used Premiere without lifetime for about $40 and all your H.264 problems would be solved.
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:16 PM   #60
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Verizon's long-stated FiOS plan since inception was to go IP... H.264 over QAM is a stopgap plan that only materialized in the last couple years. Fios might not have worked with any Tivos at all anymore right about now if not for their change of plans. So from another perspective, one might be glad that their old box can still get 95% of the available programming and not have a total paperweight, less they change providers.

Verizon themselves have been walking on eggshells to make sure only the lowest-traffic channels get transitioned over. They're all either in special packages, 2nd and 3rd tier premium channels, or otherwise (subjectively speaking) crappy channels only on the highest paying tier of service.

It would be nice if Tivo did an update. Certainly nobody would complain. But they can do the math and see how many people this impacts in real terms and how much they REALLY miss that low-traffic content.

Last edited by BigJimOutlaw : 09-27-2013 at 04:06 PM.
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