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Old 09-16-2013, 06:17 AM   #1111
ggieseke
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I don't know why, but TiVo always seems to set up MFS media region 2 as 55% of the drive and physically it's right after the APM. That's followed by the rest of the partitions and then MFS media region gets whatever is left over at the end of the drive.

That's probably why it won't auto format a 4TB drive. 55% of 4 trillion plus the other partitions would push the last partition past the 2TB starting point. If you shrink MFS media partition 2 down a bit so that MFS media partition starts at 0xFFFFFFF8 or earlier you can still utilize all of a 4TB drive.

I suspect that's what Weaknees did, but exactly how is a good question. Unless TiVo changes the algorithm they use to split up a drive, auto-format will probably never work.

It's POSSIBLE that just writing block 0 and the APM is enough to let a Roamio take over from there and create all of the appropriate MFS headers and zones. If anyone has the necessary hardware to try out that theory let me know and I can probably cook up something to write those first 64 sectors.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:09 AM   #1112
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I do have all the hardware, let me know what you want me to do! Can easily swap out drives with my desktop and or whatever OS instructions your comfortable with (it primarily runs OSX but can do Windows + Ubuntu).

Let me know!
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:16 PM   #1113
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I don't know why, but TiVo always seems to set up MFS media region 2 as 55% of the drive and physically it's right after the APM. That's followed by the rest of the partitions and then MFS media region gets whatever is left over at the end of the drive.

That's probably why it won't auto format a 4TB drive. 55% of 4 trillion plus the other partitions would push the last partition past the 2TB starting point. If you shrink MFS media partition 2 down a bit so that MFS media partition starts at 0xFFFFFFF8 or earlier you can still utilize all of a 4TB drive.

I suspect that's what Weaknees did, but exactly how is a good question. Unless TiVo changes the algorithm they use to split up a drive, auto-format will probably never work.

It's POSSIBLE that just writing block 0 and the APM is enough to let a Roamio take over from there and create all of the appropriate MFS headers and zones. If anyone has the necessary hardware to try out that theory let me know and I can probably cook up something to write those first 64 sectors.
I did find a new pdisk64 tool that Tivo wrote. The dpme.h file describes the changes they made to the APM, and they modified it to use type u64 to hold the drive size. They put the partition size as a 64 bit number at the very end of the block, put a zero in the traditional 32-bit partition size location, and use a special signature to identify that APM block. I attached the .h file.

The odd part is that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. The foundation is there to use a drive of any size, but the other tools in Tivo don't appear to take advantage of it. Maybe they wrote pdisk64 thinking they had to do it that way but instead discovered the workaround they're currently using.
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:00 PM   #1114
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I do have all the hardware, let me know what you want me to do! Can easily swap out drives with my desktop and or whatever OS instructions your comfortable with (it primarily runs OSX but can do Windows + Ubuntu).

Let me know!
Just picked up my Roamio Plus. Will stick with the 150 hours for now and keep an eye out for progress on cracking the 3TB threshold. I have a spare 4TB drive I could throw in, or else I still have a 2TB drive from my Premiere I can throw in as well.

I can test also if needed for a 4TB drive.
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:41 PM   #1115
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Hard drives thrive in the heat, up to around 60 C or so. Then their reliability falls off sharply. So "felt very warm" doesn't mean much.

If they list "IntelliPower", for the Red then I'm mistaken. It's a low RPM drive that has the same speed, power, and heat as a Green drive. This made me look at the spec. sheets for the Red vs. Green, and I don't see any difference except the 3 yr. warranty on the Red vs. the 2 on the Green. I'm shocked that they'd recommend the Red for RAID use, as RAID users typically go for extra performance vs. the data redundancy and they wouldn't usually settle for a low RPM drive. But it's all marketing drivel anyway.
The reason for the Red drives is NAS environments. Once you have two or three or four spindles in play along with R5, the increased access time and rotational latency from a 5400rpm disk isn't quite as noticeable. Plus, a lot of NAS access is large file storage - direct streaming to/from the media - which 5400 RPM drives do almost as well as a 7200rpm disk. These days the biggest "gain" in speed on a 7.2k drive comes from the lower access time. For stuff like storing ripped DVDs or music, it's not as big of a deal.

Yeah, for an enterprise setup you use 7.2k drives, but for a home setup with only 2-5 "users" and most of them NOT simultaneous, the power savings and heat/noise bonuses from the slower drives are a worthwhile trade-off, along with price.

The big difference between Red & Green beyond the warranty is that the Red do TLER. Rather than sitting and retrying a read/write for a long time (which can cause a drive to fall out of the array), they mark the sector bad, which will trigger it to be rebuilt by the RAID system, and everything continues on mostly normal. I believe that the AV drives may be the same (quickly erroring and moving on rather than hanging up retrying a read/write which can cause UI experience to suffer) but there's no true way to know without working at WD and/or digging through their spec sheets. The AV drives specifically advertise the "AV streaming" command set, but I thought that was part of the later SATA spec anyway...

I'm trying to decide if I want to specifically buy an AV drive for the Tivo that's in my Amazon cart, or if I want to yank one of the WD Reds that is in my Windows Media Center system instead... The Red is "free" for me (already purchased), while a new AV = higher outlay.

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"IntelliPower" doesn't mean variable speed -- it means fixed speed (5400 rpm) but the actual throughput is sometimes higher than a "typical" 5400 RPM drive. Since all drives support NCQ, of course when you use that you'll get bursts of higher throughput.
NCQ doesn't generally benefit in a linear access pattern like streaming video. Possibly with multiple streams simultaneously it could help, but NCQ normally has the best impact on a "multi-client, mostly random" kind of load. Check out StorageReview and AnandTech, I believe both have done testing of NCQ to see its effects.
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:52 PM   #1116
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The reason for the Red drives is NAS environments. Once you have two or three or four spindles in play along with R5, the increased access time and rotational latency from a 5400rpm disk isn't quite as noticeable. Plus, a lot of NAS access is large file storage - direct streaming to/from the media - which 5400 RPM drives do almost as well as a 7200rpm disk. These days the biggest "gain" in speed on a 7.2k drive comes from the lower access time. For stuff like storing ripped DVDs or music, it's not as big of a deal.

Yeah, for an enterprise setup you use 7.2k drives, but for a home setup with only 2-5 "users" and most of them NOT simultaneous, the power savings and heat/noise bonuses from the slower drives are a worthwhile trade-off, along with price.

The big difference between Red & Green beyond the warranty is that the Red do TLER. Rather than sitting and retrying a read/write for a long time (which can cause a drive to fall out of the array), they mark the sector bad, which will trigger it to be rebuilt by the RAID system, and everything continues on mostly normal. I believe that the AV drives may be the same (quickly erroring and moving on rather than hanging up retrying a read/write which can cause UI experience to suffer) but there's no true way to know without working at WD and/or digging through their spec sheets. The AV drives specifically advertise the "AV streaming" command set, but I thought that was part of the later SATA spec anyway...

I'm trying to decide if I want to specifically buy an AV drive for the Tivo that's in my Amazon cart, or if I want to yank one of the WD Reds that is in my Windows Media Center system instead... The Red is "free" for me (already purchased), while a new AV = higher outlay.


NCQ doesn't generally benefit in a linear access pattern like streaming video. Possibly with multiple streams simultaneously it could help, but NCQ normally has the best impact on a "multi-client, mostly random" kind of load. Check out StorageReview and AnandTech, I believe both have done testing of NCQ to see its effects.
Yeah, you leave a part of a the industry for three years, and it seems like you've been gone for 20 years! When I was in the hard drive industry the demand for NAS was non-existent.

As I recall, NCQ does nicely give a performance bump in multiple streaming applications, probably more so than the streaming commands themselves. It also gives a decent bump in performance in regular home/office use as well. "Stream" is one for each tuner plus one for each output device. A six tuner Roamio connected to a few Minis will have plenty of streams!

The Red and Green drives are almost identical except for the enabling/disabling of minor firmware features the Tivo most likely isn't using. The AV drive appears to be from the previous generation but is plenty good enough. It's all about price. If you have one lying around just use that one.
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:42 PM   #1117
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Yeah, you leave a part of a the industry for three years, and it seems like you've been gone for 20 years! When I was in the hard drive industry the demand for NAS was non-existent.
And now it's big enough that the two major players (WD & Seagate) both have specific drives for it.

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As I recall, NCQ does nicely give a performance bump in multiple streaming applications, probably more so than the streaming commands themselves. It also gives a decent bump in performance in regular home/office use as well. "Stream" is one for each tuner plus one for each output device. A six tuner Roamio connected to a few Minis will have plenty of streams!
StorageReview begs to differ on the value of NCQ in normal "desktop use" benchmarks... but once you start getting into "server use" it can help. Given that the Tivo has multiple streams going on, I can see how this could "smell" like "server use."

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The Red and Green drives are almost identical except for the enabling/disabling of minor firmware features the Tivo most likely isn't using. The AV drive appears to be from the previous generation but is plenty good enough. It's all about price. If you have one lying around just use that one.
Supposedly the Red is more vibration-tolerant than a Green, on top of having firmware tweaks. They give it that extra year of warranty too.

I just pulled the trigger on a new Tivo setup, I threw an AV-GP drive in just so I don't have to dismantle/cripple the current array on the WMC system to setup the Tivo. Once I've finished watching shows on the WMC setup and the Tivo is "in production," I'll yank one of the Reds from the WMC box and throw it in my NAS, and either leave the other one as standalone or turn it into a cold-spare for the NAS. (I have a 4-bay Synology with only 3 drives currently, it can easily expand from 3 to 4-drive R5 so why not.)
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:45 PM   #1118
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Weaknees is selling 4TB Roamios now. Could the hard drive be taken out, cloned and the software analyzed for changes compared to a 3TB Roamio drive in order to discover how they are breaking the barrier?
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:49 PM   #1119
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Weaknees is selling 4TB Roamios now. Could the hard drive be taken out, cloned and the software analyzed for changes compared to a 3TB Roamio drive in order to discover how they are breaking the barrier?
Yes, by somebody that knew what they were doing, and was willing to invest the money and time to do this. 600+ HD hours to me seems like an over kill for most people.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:24 PM   #1120
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Yes, by somebody that knew what they were doing, and was willing to invest the money and time to do this. 600+ HD hours to me seems like an over kill for most people.
Sure–but if you happen to only have a 4TB drive sitting around (ironically from a WMC/Ceton setup). Wouldn't you want it to work when the alternative is the 500 gb that came with the Roamio
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:25 PM   #1121
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I did find a new pdisk64 tool that Tivo wrote. The dpme.h file describes the changes they made to the APM, and they modified it to use type u64 to hold the drive size. They put the partition size as a 64 bit number at the very end of the block, put a zero in the traditional 32-bit partition size location, and use a special signature to identify that APM block. I attached the .h file.

The odd part is that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. The foundation is there to use a drive of any size, but the other tools in Tivo don't appear to take advantage of it. Maybe they wrote pdisk64 thinking they had to do it that way but instead discovered the workaround they're currently using.

How would I use that script? Not a normal mac shell script seemingly.
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:02 PM   #1122
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I believe the MBT line in system information is the Mother Board Temperature.

My Roamio with 2 TB drive has been running for 20+ hours in my closet that houses all my equipment. After recording (and transferring) about 50 hours worth or shows, all is well so far. The MBT is 50.

Jeff
Is there a MBT "mother board temperature" thread someplace? I haven't seen a Roamio in this thread lower than 40C yet, but mine (upgraded to a 3TB WD AV drive) is only 39C.

My Tivos have always stood on edge. They don't fit sideways on that side of my cabinet. Also, instead of putting them on the bottom of the cabinet. I have them on a shelf about 1" from the bottom of the cabinet, allowing a good inflow of cool air from the front of the cabinet.

I can submit a pic if anyone wants.
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:53 PM   #1123
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Ambient room temperature and other factors would likely have more to do with the temperature of your TiVo motherboard than how you have it oriented.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:11 PM   #1124
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Ambient room temperature and other factors would likely have more to do with the temperature of your TiVo motherboard than how you have it oriented.
You state that as if you have some authority in the matter and with no evidence whatsoever.

But I still think you're wrong. And my ambient temp is about what others have stated--74F.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:17 AM   #1125
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74F where the TiVo is situated? I know my temperature can vary 2 to 3 degrees, this time of year, between the ceiling and the floor. So while my wall clock might show a temperature of 75F, the temp where my TiVo is located could be 72F. Or even a bigger difference in the Winter.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:23 AM   #1126
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You state that as if you have some authority in the matter and with no evidence whatsoever.

But I still think you're wrong. And my ambient temp is about what others have stated--74F.
Good for you. My "authority" on the matter comes from courses on thermodynamics. By all means though start a thread about your tivo temperature and orientation, for whatever that's worth to your ego.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:36 AM   #1127
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Good for you. My "authority" on the matter comes from courses on thermodynamics. By all means though start a thread about your tivo temperature and orientation, for whatever that's worth to your ego.
All things be equal, orientation can make a difference if the temperature sensor is on the left or right side as the area near the "top" side will be warmer than the "bottom" side. Also depending on which side the TiVo is placed on the fan will either be at the top (good) or the bottom (bad).

Personally I worry more about the heat that comes off my audio receiver when running "full steam", as it causes temperature increases in all nearby devices.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:10 AM   #1128
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I did find a new pdisk64 tool that Tivo wrote. The dpme.h file describes the changes they made to the APM, and they modified it to use type u64 to hold the drive size. They put the partition size as a 64 bit number at the very end of the block, put a zero in the traditional 32-bit partition size location, and use a special signature to identify that APM block. I attached the .h file.

The odd part is that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. The foundation is there to use a drive of any size, but the other tools in Tivo don't appear to take advantage of it. Maybe they wrote pdisk64 thinking they had to do it that way but instead discovered the workaround they're currently using.
That include file is fascinating. So far I've analyzed 500GB & 2TB Roamio full images and a partial 3TB image from a Pro, and they bear little to no resemblance to the Block0 or dpme structures described.

I think your theory that they wrote it and then decided to use the current workaround is correct, but it may also have just been a proposed spec. Eryk Vershen is a media engineer at Apple, not TiVo according to Linkedin.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:10 AM   #1129
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All things be equal, orientation can make a difference if the temperature sensor is on the left or right side as the area near the "top" side will be warmer than the "bottom" side. Also depending on which side the TiVo is placed on the fan will either be at the top (good) or the bottom (bad).

Personally I worry more about the heat that comes off my audio receiver when running "full steam", as it causes temperature increases in all nearby devices.
Absolutely true. However the ambient room temperature, where the device is located (enclosure), air flow in that area, etc, are all going to be bigger contributors to how a thermistor on the motherboard reads temperature-wise then how you position it... at least typically.

I understand that TiVo forum folk are a somewhat introverted and detail oriented crowd but wanting to compare MB temperatures on a device that sits in a shelf all the time is a bit hilarious (to me).

The fact that my simple observation that other things would likely be bigger contributors to a thermistor reading resulted in someone lashing out at my attempt to be an "authority" on the subject demonstrates rather acutely just how bored some of the people on here are.
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:39 PM   #1130
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I haven't seen a Roamio in this thread lower than 40C yet, but mine (upgraded to a 3TB WD AV drive) is only 39C.
The "introverted" side of me forces me to respond to this post

My Roamio+ is upgraded to a 3TB WD AV drive and reads exactly 39C almost continuously.
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:43 PM   #1131
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That include file is fascinating. So far I've analyzed 500GB & 2TB Roamio full images and a partial 3TB image from a Pro, and they bear little to no resemblance to the Block0 or dpme structures described.

I think your theory that they wrote it and then decided to use the current workaround is correct, but it may also have just been a proposed spec. Eryk Vershen is a media engineer at Apple, not TiVo according to Linkedin.
Tivo put their copyright notice in it, alongside Apple's. That means they touched it. Eryk is the original pdisk author. Tivo didn't put who modified pdisk to create pdisk64. They also didn't remove any of Apple's original comments.
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:25 PM   #1132
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Haven't looked at it in detail, but would it explain the difference between the APM in the 4 tuner premieres and the earlier models.
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Old 09-17-2013, 03:44 PM   #1133
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Tivo put their copyright notice in it, alongside Apple's. That means they touched it. Eryk is the original pdisk author. Tivo didn't put who modified pdisk to create pdisk64. They also didn't remove any of Apple's original comments.
Agreed. I just don't know what relevance it has to Roamios at this point since they're not using those structures yet from what I've seen so far.

The APM (or dpme) structure that I've seen on Roamios is greatly simplified from earlier versions and doesn't fit that definition at all. The Block0 structure in that .h file bears no resemblace to what TiVo has used since day one and still seems to be using. In particular, there's no reference to the current alternating boot partition that has been a part of their strategy forever.

Some parts of it make a lot of sense and are clearly a 64-bit extension of the original file system, and other parts seem like pure fantasy based on the original Apple specification without much actual knowlege of what TiVo has been doing since '99.

I don't know what to think and I won't call it a red herring, but it isn't what they're using so far unlesss an analysis of the Weaknees 4TB model proves me wrong or they switch to it in the future. On stock models up to 3TB I can guarantee that they're not using it now.

Who knows what the future will bring?
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:52 PM   #1134
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Maybe this structure is located on the NAND or SSD that the Roamio boots off of and stores the OS.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:02 AM   #1135
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...My Tivos have always stood on edge. They don't fit sideways on that side of my cabinet. Also, instead of putting them on the bottom of the cabinet. I have them on a shelf about 1" from the bottom of the cabinet, allowing a good inflow of cool air from the front of the cabinet.

I can submit a pic if anyone wants.
I always like to se other people's setups, so please post
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:14 AM   #1136
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I always like to se other people's setups, so please post
Here it is years ago (Jul 2011).



Today it's a lone S5 next to an XBox.

And you can't tell with this angle, but under that black shelf is almost an inch of open space to allow cold air from the front. Out the back, it's closed except for a vent up higher.
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Old 09-20-2013, 03:42 AM   #1137
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Here it is years ago (Jul 2011).



Today it's a lone S5 next to an XBox.

And you can't tell with this angle, but under that black shelf is almost an inch of open space to allow cold air from the front. Out the back, it's closed except for a vent up higher.
Do you notice any vibration suing them vertically? Did you add any rubber feet?
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Old 09-20-2013, 06:56 AM   #1138
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I always like to se other people's setups, so please post
Here is how mine looks, had to pull everything out last night getting ready for my first amp.


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Old 09-20-2013, 07:05 AM   #1139
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Here is how mine looks, had to pull everything out last night getting ready for my first amp.

How much clearance will you have above the new amp? My B&K puts out a HUGE amount of heat. I'm looking to go back to a straight receiver. I know they get hot too, but nothing like my amp.
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:37 AM   #1140
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4" off top. Its an Emotiva that runs pretty cool, they said 2-3 " so it should be more than good. Also talked to owners that stack without problems. Kinda excited to get my first amp, but as you can see I wont be fitting anything else.

That stand was originally designed as one shelf in each section, but I had to drill new holes to fit the player, surge protector and Hopper in one spot. Luckily the Roamio is so little!
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