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Old 09-11-2013, 08:57 PM   #31
WRX09MD
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Read through this. Sounds like the same issues I had and the assistance in this thread fixed my problems. I have verizon but the basics should work with other companies.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=508735
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:25 PM   #32
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Certainly nothing to do with my issues. No MoCa. No 2nd router. No 2nd DHCP server/applet. Just a single, flat network with a single DHCP server (on the FiOS Actiontec unit). All devices connected on the same flat network segment via CAT5E.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:35 PM   #33
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I agree with the first part of your statement, but your suspicion. I do NOT believe it has a darned thing to do with content security. There are plenty of devices that have to deal with this - specifically including cable/fios provided dvr's among others..
Yes, cable/fios have to deal with these same issues. And do their whole home DVR solutions work? No, they don't. Whole home DVR is hard. The Tivo solution isn't perfect but it works a whole lot better than anyone else's product.

Look, I don't know if your issues are related to content security or not, and nor do you. But it is very unlikely to be a layer 2 networking bug because Tivo, along with everyone else in the industry, are using extremely mature stacks for that stuff. You don't seriously believe Tivo writes their own ip networking code do you? It is far more likely to be an application layer issue or user error. There are plenty of us with quite complex network configurations who are having no problems.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:05 AM   #34
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I agree with the first part of your statement, but your suspicion.
I do NOT believe it has a darned thing to do with content security. There are plenty of devices that have to deal with this - specifically including cable/fios provided dvr's among others.

The bottom line here is that Tivo simply violates IEEE standards and best practices, either deliberately or accidentally. Switches do not manipulate packets. Period. Routers and firewalls can have different effects, but not switches. These are clear flaws/defects in the Tivo system, for which Tivo has not shown the slightest indication that they are trying to fix.

For my "job", I have hundreds of thousands of network devices, with encryption for data at rest and data in motion, Enterprise VoIP, video, many many many petabytes of data. The fact that Tivo points to "switches" as creating problems for their devices speaks volumes. No self respecting technology/service company (which is exactly what they are) would either allow this, or would admit it.

This really makes me question even more what will happen to Tivo as more IP delivered content becomes mainstream, and more homes become "unplugged" from cable/fios/etc. These services are Tivos weakest link.
If you go to this page, and scroll down to the "switch" sections, you will see four switches that have compatibility issues with Sonos devices. Look at the reasons listed. It seems to be that the switch is not doing something correctly.

I have no idea what is going on with the TiVo Mini, but it is my guess that it could be the fault of any device on the network - in this case that doesn't rule out either TiVo or the various networking equipment that we all have in our homes.

As I have stated before, I will NOT be purchasing a TiVo Mini until TiVo identifies the problem, and either fixes it, or identifies the conditions under which it occurs.
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Old 09-12-2013, 08:48 AM   #35
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Yes, cable/fios have to deal with these same issues. And do their whole home DVR solutions work? No, they don't. Whole home DVR is hard. The Tivo solution isn't perfect but it works a whole lot better than anyone else's product.

Look, I don't know if your issues are related to content security or not, and nor do you. But it is very unlikely to be a layer 2 networking bug because Tivo, along with everyone else in the industry, are using extremely mature stacks for that stuff. You don't seriously believe Tivo writes their own ip networking code do you? It is far more likely to be an application layer issue or user error. There are plenty of us with quite complex network configurations who are having no problems.
I totally disagree with just about everything you've said here. Yes, I believe it's entirely possible that Tivo is using a proprietary IP stack. They would not be the first, nor the only company to do so. I happen to have VZs whole home DVR solution in addition to my XL4s and Minis. Yes, it works. It is very very reliable IMHO. Is it as feature rich as Tivo? No. Is it more reliable? Yes, in every single respect.

BTW, I do agree that it's likely software (code) - which for your info includes the IP stack.

I would encourage you to do some research before making claims that "everyone is using mature" etc. The company I left 2 years ago used - guess what? A proprietary IP stack for a network enable product. Why? Because the processor of the unit lacked the power and capability to do otherwise. Hmmm.... And exactly how "powerful" is the processor in a Premiere? Not as powerful as what's in most newer smart phones.

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Old 09-12-2013, 08:53 AM   #36
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If you go to this page, and scroll down to the "switch" sections, you will see four switches that have compatibility issues with Sonos devices. Look at the reasons listed. It seems to be that the switch is not doing something correctly.

I have no idea what is going on with the TiVo Mini, but it is my guess that it could be the fault of any device on the network - in this case that doesn't rule out either TiVo or the various networking equipment that we all have in our homes.

As I have stated before, I will NOT be purchasing a TiVo Mini until TiVo identifies the problem, and either fixes it, or identifies the conditions under which it occurs.
My guess is that many of those issues related to the bonjour protocol being used for multicast. That is certainly one issue that can be caused by some access point/switch/routers. However, that is not related to this issue whatsoever.

I do not, under any circumstances, hold anyone but Tivo responsible for this. It's very easy for Tivo. If you want to be transparent, simply expose exactly what ports and protocols are being used. So long as they are being properly supported, nothing else matters. The lack of such clarity speaks very very loudly. In other words, if Tivo really believed it was the fault of other network gear, they could easily put the responsibility where it lies were they to publish this and clearly show switches/routers that failed to properly implement support of such protocols.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:37 AM   #37
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I totally disagree with just about everything you've said here. Yes, I believe it's entirely possible that Tivo is using a proprietary IP stack. They would not be the first, nor the only company to do so. I happen to have VZs whole home DVR solution in addition to my XL4s and Minis. Yes, it works. It is very very reliable IMHO. Is it as feature rich as Tivo? No. Is it more reliable? Yes, in every single respect.

BTW, I do agree that it's likely software (code) - which for your info includes the IP stack.

I would encourage you to do some research before making claims that "everyone is using mature" etc. The company I left 2 years ago used - guess what? A proprietary IP stack for a network enable product. Why? Because the processor of the unit lacked the power and capability to do otherwise. Hmmm.... And exactly how "powerful" is the processor in a Premiere? Not as powerful as what's in most newer smart phones.
Just for reference purposes, I work for a company that builds network gear and it's incredibly uncommon for someone to use "their own IP stack" in anything designed or built in the last decade. Almost all companies either use the IP stacks of the OS that they use or they license a mature stack from another company.

Building an IP stack is a costly and painful endeavor.

Additionally, Layer 2 problems (which are switch type problems) have nothing to do with the IP stack. A layer 2 problem, such as a link negotiation problem, power saving problem, etc, are not IP issues. They are far more likely to be issues with hardware drivers, or in very rare cases, issues with the hardware itself.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:55 AM   #38
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Just for reference purposes, I work for a company that builds network gear and it's incredibly uncommon for someone to use "their own IP stack" in anything designed or built in the last decade. Almost all companies either use the IP stacks of the OS that they use or they license a mature stack from another company.

Building an IP stack is a costly and painful endeavor.

Additionally, Layer 2 problems (which are switch type problems) have nothing to do with the IP stack. A layer 2 problem, such as a link negotiation problem, power saving problem, etc, are not IP issues. They are far more likely to be issues with hardware drivers, or in very rare cases, issues with the hardware itself.
Just for reference purposes, as described I can give two specific examples in the last 18 months of products that use a proprietary IP stack. Most of these occur when the OS itself is a non-standard OS, and when using lesser capable processors.

Additionally, I never said this was a layer 2 issue. This could easily be layer 3 among other issues.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:00 AM   #39
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Just for reference purposes, as described I can give two specific examples in the last 18 months of products that use a proprietary IP stack. Most of these occur when the OS itself is a non-standard OS, and when using lesser capable processors.

Additionally, I never said this was a layer 2 issue. This could easily be layer 3 among other issues.
If the problem is that links drop and disconnect it seems more likely that it's layer 2 than layer 3.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:59 AM   #40
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Actually, not sure exactly what you're saying here. I was building networks back in the ArcNet days. In the late 90s and early 2000s you would still have needed a switch to have multiple connections to a PC, unless you had multiple NICs in the PC - in which case it would be a co-homed set of networks (which is a bad idea). A NIC does not have the ability to do what you said.

Back in bus network topology, you could serially network network devices - having a terminating resistor on both ends. Other than that, you need either a switch or at least a hub to have more than 2 devices - and have needed this for decades.
Yes I had multiple NICs in my DHCP server.. And when I went gigabit I had multiple NICs as well until I could finally get a gigabit switch at a descent price.
And then once consumer routers came out with gigabit ports I finally dumped the dhcp server and used a Dlink router..
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:14 PM   #41
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WMHJR: You are clearly very certain of your own expertise and dismissive of others who are trying to be helpful. So you are unlikely to find help for your problems in these forums. Or perhaps you are just here to vent, which is fine, but be aware that at some point it just becomes self-indulgent and dull.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #42
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WMHJR: You are clearly very certain of your own expertise and dismissive of others who are trying to be helpful. So you are unlikely to find help for your problems in these forums. Or perhaps you are just here to vent, which is fine, but be aware that at some point it just becomes self-indulgent and dull.
I'm just being accurate. It's not dismissive - it's a dislike for inaccurate information. Inaccurate information leads to assumptions about root causes. More critically, it allows Tivo to blame others for failed technologies. Tivo should be held publicly responsible for defects rather than simply accepting product defects and blaming them on vague but unsubstantiated other causes.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:52 PM   #43
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Yes I had multiple NICs in my DHCP server.. And when I went gigabit I had multiple NICs as well until I could finally get a gigabit switch at a descent price.
And then once consumer routers came out with gigabit ports I finally dumped the dhcp server and used a Dlink router..
OK, that would work. Not sure why you'd want to do that, but it would work - so long as you constructed the vlans such that you're bridging all the separate networks.

For non-enterprise, GB is typically way overkill. Curious as to what you were doing that required GB network segments. To be honest, it's only relatively recently that GB was even a mainstay in enterprise network datacenters. I say recently only in terms of comparison to when consumer grade GB switches became available. Also, keeping in mind that full duplex speeds from your gateway will be certainly a small fraction of a GB port speed.
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:04 PM   #44
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OK, that would work. Not sure why you'd want to do that, but it would work - so long as you constructed the vlans such that you're bridging all the separate networks.

For non-enterprise, GB is typically way overkill. Curious as to what you were doing that required GB network segments. To be honest, it's only relatively recently that GB was even a mainstay in enterprise network datacenters. I say recently only in terms of comparison to when consumer grade GB switches became available. Also, keeping in mind that full duplex speeds from your gateway will be certainly a small fraction of a GB port speed.
In 2001 I got a couple of HiPix cards for recording OTA HD content. At the time I could not find an antenna that gave me reception in my condo so I had one pc setup at my GFs house to record a bunch of HD shows every week. I had a removable drive bay and would swap out an 80GB drive each week with 30 to 50 GB of shows. So when I brought it home I would transfer it to a PC I used to store the content for network access for playback later. At first I only had 100BT cards and it took forever to transfer the content each week. That was the only reason I set up a gigabit network. So I I could transfer that content much faster to the PC I used for network storage.
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Old 09-13-2013, 02:50 PM   #45
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In 2001 I got a couple of HiPix cards for recording OTA HD content. At the time I could not find an antenna that gave me reception in my condo so I had one pc setup at my GFs house to record a bunch of HD shows every week. I had a removable drive bay and would swap out an 80GB drive each week with 30 to 50 GB of shows. So when I brought it home I would transfer it to a PC I used to store the content for network access for playback later. At first I only had 100BT cards and it took forever to transfer the content each week. That was the only reason I set up a gigabit network. So I I could transfer that content much faster to the PC I used for network storage.
Ah, got it. I can understand. OTA is uncompressed with pretty darned high bit rates. I can imagine individual file sizes would be pretty large - much larger than the compressed MPEG2/MPEG4 stuff we get from Fios - and even more so from other providers such as Comcast, etc.
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:47 PM   #46
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Anyone who rips blu-ray disks has (or needs) a gigabit network as the file size for a single BD movie can easily be 30+ GB and transfering over 100Mb takes an eternity.

Similarly things like Time Machine (or other network backup solutions) go much faster with gigabit.

Gigabit costs a few bucks more these days over 100 megabit. I actually don't see why anyone does NOT get gigabit home network gear... even if they don't need it now, it's entirely possible they will down the road. I have a basement full of older slower hubs and switches because my uses have outgrown them.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:41 PM   #47
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I agree that if you're buying new equipment, no reason not to get Gig-E. However, for most people if you don't already have it, it is massive overkill at the moment. Lots of people burning BR disks aren't doing any of the work over the network, so the Gig network is a non-issue. If you're using an internal backup (meaning internal on your network) then I suppose Gig can help if you're always doing full backups. If you're doing incrementals, it's a non-issue. While I've had Gig for quite a while, honestly there has been no real reason other than I wanted to upgrade my switch for other reasons (port density). From a performance perspective, it has not made any difference but I'm not ripping disks, etc.

That being said, to stay at least a little on topic, since I've duplicated these issues using a number of switches, including old 8 port 10/100 switches with no "green" capability, I think we can safely say that either Gig-E or green switches are NOT the root cause. Each case I've duplicated this ALL Tivos have been behind the exact same switch at that time. Meaning, all of them on an 8 port Linksys 10/100 (fail). All of them behind Cisco 24 port Gig (fail). etc.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:58 PM   #48
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That being said, to stay at least a little on topic, since I've duplicated these issues using a number of switches, including old 8 port 10/100 switches with no "green" capability, I think we can safely say that either Gig-E or green switches are NOT the root cause. Each case I've duplicated this ALL Tivos have been behind the exact same switch at that time. Meaning, all of them on an 8 port Linksys 10/100 (fail). All of them behind Cisco 24 port Gig (fail). etc.
Sorry, but all we can conclude is that YOUR problems are not caused green switches. Your problems have existed for a year; almost everybody else's problems have started in the past 3 weeks. You haven't produced any evidence that your problem is caused by the same thing as everybody else, and the timing strongly suggests that the cause is different. What you report here is just further evidence that YOUR problem is different, since many people report that swapping switches has made a difference for them.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:47 AM   #49
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Sorry, but all we can conclude is that YOUR problems are not caused green switches. Your problems have existed for a year; almost everybody else's problems have started in the past 3 weeks. You haven't produced any evidence that your problem is caused by the same thing as everybody else, and the timing strongly suggests that the cause is different. What you report here is just further evidence that YOUR problem is different, since many people report that swapping switches has made a difference for them.
Actually, strongly disagree. Here is why.

1) My TIVO NETWORK issues (which include Mini and Premiere) have existed for more than a year. Obviously, I did not HAVE minis for more than a year.

2) The statement that "almost everybody else's problems have started in the past 3 weeks" is also false.

3) Because "some" people report success with green switches, "some" people report issues with them, "some" people report success with older (non-green) switches, and "some" people report issues with older (non-green) switches. Again, your statement is false.

The common issue here is that at least starting with the Premiere line, Tivo has been less than stellar in terms of network compatibility and reliability. And that further, it is very unlikely that the ROOT CAUSE of this issue is green switches. You simply cannot pick and choose the people experiencing issues to determine what root cause is. Perhaps an FMEA would be enlightening, no?
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