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Old 09-01-2013, 06:00 AM   #841
Rkkeller
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My install yesterday went fine after I posted here.

I think the 1st post in this thread should be updated some as that is what confused me. It was a BIG help, but the wording on one thing could be confusing.

I only needed a Torx T10 to remove all the screws and the cover should be "pried upward" and off from back to front not "slid forward" like the picture in the first post says. I used a butter knife and wiggled it under and it pops up and off.

I was trying and trying to "slide" it, then I posted here and someone said to just "pry" it off. It could save others some time.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:02 AM   #842
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I am very non techie and upgraded the HD so if anyone else is worried, don't be. It is as simple as it sounds.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:34 AM   #843
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Thanks to Devx I was able to get a partial 3TB image (all hail!). Here's what I found, and boy do I feel stupid.

We've always "known" that the Apple Partition Map uses 32-bit unsigned numbers for the starting offset and the partition length fields. Since those numbers refer to 512 byte sectors, simple logic indicates that you can only describe a 2TB drive.

But what if the last physical partition had a start address just below the 32-bit maximum value and you use 64-bit math?

That's exactly what TiVo did. The last MFS media partition starts around the 1.5TB mark and it's just over 1.22TB long. Those figures are true multiples of 1024, not drive manufacturer "terabytes". When it's all said and done, the Apple Block0 and the APM partitions add up to 3,000,592,982,016 bytes, which is exactly the size of a WD30EURS.

P.S. I see no reason why a 4TB drive wouldn't work.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:39 AM   #844
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I wonder if the only way to do it though is to copy the original drive and create the partitions yourself.

I thought someone tested swapping the drives and the only way it didn't format was if the TSN matched. I may be wrong and misremembering though.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:59 AM   #845
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Originally Posted by ggieseke View Post
Thanks to Devx I was able to get a partial 3TB image (all hail!). Here's what I found, and boy do I feel stupid.

We've always "known" that the Apple Partition Map uses 32-bit unsigned numbers for the starting offset and the partition length fields. Since those numbers refer to 512 byte sectors, simple logic indicates that you can only describe a 2TB drive.

But what if the last physical partition had a start address just below the 32-bit maximum value and you use 64-bit math?

That's exactly what TiVo did. The last MFS media partition starts around the 1.5TB mark and it's just over 1.22TB long. Those figures are true multiples of 1024, not drive manufacturer "terabytes". When it's all said and done, the Apple Block0 and the APM partitions add up to 3,000,592,982,016 bytes, which is exactly the size of a WD30EURS.

P.S. I see no reason why a 4TB drive wouldn't work.
Wouldn't an additional TB push you up against either the partition size limit or the starting byte address limit?
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:01 AM   #846
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I wonder if the only way to do it though is to copy the original drive and create the partitions yourself.
You would have to resize the existing media partitions instead of adding one more like jmfs, but the math says it's possible.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:07 AM   #847
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Wouldn't an additional TB push you up against either the partition size limit or the starting byte address limit?
Each of the two media partitions would have to be just under 2TB instead of roughly 1.5TB and 1.2TB, but it's possible. If the last media partition started at 0xFFFFFFF8 it would work.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:21 AM   #848
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That's exactly what TiVo did. The last MFS media partition starts around the 1.5TB mark and it's just over 1.22TB long. Those figures are true multiples of 1024, not drive manufacturer "terabytes". When it's all said and done, the Apple Block0 and the APM partitions add up to 3,000,592,982,016 bytes, which is exactly the size of a WD30EURS.

P.S. I see no reason why a 4TB drive wouldn't work.
I wonder if the bug Weaknees hit involved this hack. The Tivo might not partition the 4TB drive correctly. It would need to be partitioned manually in that case.

Although I wonder why TiVo is still using APM. Seems like a perfect opportunity to move to a more modern partition scheme...
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:03 AM   #849
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I wonder if the bug Weaknees hit involved this hack. The Tivo might not partition the 4TB drive correctly. It would need to be partitioned manually in that case.
Even if it was, the Roamio would need to recognize it as already being set up or it would simply try to partition it itself and fail, presumably because starting address and partition sizes are hard coded for drives larger than 2 TB. If that's the case the code in flash would need to be changed to work with a drive larger than 3 TB.

It would be an interesting test to put a 2.5 TB drive in and see if the Roamio a) sets it up correctly and b) uses the same starting address and partition size as it does for a 3 TB drive.

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Although I wonder why TiVo is still using APM. Seems like a perfect opportunity to move to a more modern partition scheme...
Likely because it's extra work for little reward. The Roamio Pro can get up to 4 TB with an expander drive (or 5 TB if they ever make 2 TB expanders). That gives a ridiculous amount of recording time. Way more than the average TiVo user needs.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:14 AM   #850
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Even if it was, the Roamio would need to recognize it as already being set up or it would simply try to partition it itself and fail, presumably because starting address and partition sizes are hard coded for drives larger than 2 TB. If that's the case the code in flash would need to be changed to work with a drive larger than 3 TB.

It would be an interesting test to put a 2.5 TB drive in and see if the Roamio a) sets it up correctly and b) uses the same starting address and partition size as it does for a 3 TB drive.



Likely because it's extra work for little reward. The Roamio Pro can get up to 4 TB with an expander drive (or 5 TB if they ever make 2 TB expanders). That gives a ridiculous amount of recording time. Way more than the average TiVo user needs.
I see it being worthwhile to be able to expand from say 1Tb to 2Tb or 3Tb without the loss of settings or programs, but the need to go to 4Tb internally has to be very small and as pointed out you can get to 4Tb with an external drive. BUT a challenge is a challenge.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:18 AM   #851
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BUT a challenge is a challenge.
Yeah, and it makes me wonder if I could do the same thing on a Premiere.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:18 AM   #852
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I don't think they ever made a 2.5 TB drive. I couldn't find one on Amazon or Newegg. I wonder if you could test it with a 1.5TB drive.

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I see it being worthwhile to be able to expand from say 1Tb to 2Tb or 3Tb without the loss of settings or programs, but the need to go to 4Tb internally has to be very small and as pointed out you can get to 4Tb with an external drive. BUT a challenge is a challenge.
It would be nice in the future when the 4TB drives drop the the prices of 3TB and 2TB drives.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:30 AM   #853
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I don't think they ever made a 2.5 TB drive. I couldn't find one on Amazon or Newegg. I wonder if you could test it with a 1.5TB drive.
Don't know if this is compatible, but

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digita.../dp/B004SBI2MU
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:39 AM   #854
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This thread is getting long, can anyone tell me if you lose your CC paring info if you add a different HD????

Also does "anything" stay behind if you swap out the HD's????
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:41 AM   #855
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What happens if you add a 4TB HD??? Does it just use it like a 3TB or not work at all????
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:43 AM   #856
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This thread is getting long, can anyone tell me if you lose your CC paring info if you add a different HD????

Also does "anything" stay behind if you swap out the HD's????
Nothing is saved - it's like starting with a brand new TiVo.

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What happens if you add a 4TB HD??? Does it just use it like a 3TB or not work at all????
TiVo won't boot up properly.
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:15 PM   #857
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can anyone tell me if you lose your CC paring info if you add a different HD?
You will lose your pairing each time if e.g. you take out your original drive, put in a new drive and then replace the original drive. Other more subtle drive switching might or might have the same results but I wouldn't be surprised if TiVo reset the pairing state whenever the drive id changed.
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Old 09-01-2013, 05:25 PM   #858
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So I guess if you plan to upgrade the drive the time to do it is when it's still new. I debated getting a Plus and upgrading but I think I'm leaning towards the Pro now. Just for simplicity.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:55 PM   #859
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Well, I'd do it before you load hours of content you want to keep. Card pairing is iffy. I had one take 20 minutes and one take an hour. Given how busy TWC is at the moment it's hard to do it in less than 15 minutes. If that's an issue for you then ...

Some people like to wait a while (say 90 days) to make sure the TiVo won't have an early out-of-warranty failure. I've just read that buying at Best Buy can help with that.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:39 PM   #860
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While trying to get GGieseke a backup of a 2 TB drive pre-guided setup (which I see Devx beat me to the punch, thanks Devx) I decided to test a second theory.

I installed a new 2 TB drive into my Roamio and powered it up without the network cable attached. I wanted to test the theory that the flash only contained enough information to connect to the network to download the data and partition the drive.

The Roamio booted, decided the drive needed to be partitioned (the drive has a serious error and must be repartitioned, all data will be lost (or something to that effect). After a couple reboots, the Roamio was ready to start guided setup.

I am making a backup now for GGieseke just in case it is helpful.

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Old 09-01-2013, 11:51 PM   #861
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And I can confirm that you loose cable card pairing when removing a drive with paring information saved to it and later replacing it.

Luckily for me, at 10 PM on a holiday weekend no one else was calling Cox tech support. I was on hold for 2 minutes and was re-paired within another 2 minutes.

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Old 09-02-2013, 01:46 AM   #862
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Seems if tivo REALLY didn't mind people upgrading drives, they woulda just used your average phillips screw on the hdd.
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:33 AM   #863
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Seems if tivo REALLY didn't mind people upgrading drives, they woulda just used your average phillips screw on the hdd.
I was able to pick up a couple of Torx-head screwdrivers at a small town (population 508) hardware store without any trouble, I'm pretty sure you can find them everywhere.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:37 AM   #864
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Everyone should have a torx kit laying around! Never know when you will need them.
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:08 AM   #865
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Thanks to Devx I was able to get a partial 3TB image (all hail!). Here's what I found, and boy do I feel stupid.

We've always "known" that the Apple Partition Map uses 32-bit unsigned numbers for the starting offset and the partition length fields. Since those numbers refer to 512 byte sectors, simple logic indicates that you can only describe a 2TB drive.

But what if the last physical partition had a start address just below the 32-bit maximum value and you use 64-bit math?

That's exactly what TiVo did. The last MFS media partition starts around the 1.5TB mark and it's just over 1.22TB long. Those figures are true multiples of 1024, not drive manufacturer "terabytes". When it's all said and done, the Apple Block0 and the APM partitions add up to 3,000,592,982,016 bytes, which is exactly the size of a WD30EURS.

P.S. I see no reason why a 4TB drive wouldn't work.
It's an invalid (gray area) APM scheme -- I don't think it was designed with that in mind, but it's not illegal (Wikipedia is wrong again -- anyone here want to edit the entry?). Tivo knows that and just carries on. The problem is that a program like gparted or an OS might flag that as an error and not let you work on that drive unless you manually edited the partition table yourself.

So you could just use dd to copy the old drive to the new drive, manually edit the partition table to expand the last partition yourself, and you should have your old programs and the full capacity of the new drive. Unless there is also some database manipulation that has to also happen. Note that would only get you 3.5 TB of the 4 TB drive, but it's painless.

If you wanted to use all 4 TB, you'd have to start moving and resizing partitions so they'd line up just right.

Last edited by BobCamp1 : 09-02-2013 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:04 AM   #866
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It's an invalid APM scheme, but the TiVo knows that and just carries on. The problem is that a program like gpartd might flag that as an error and not let you work on that drive unless you manually edited the partition table yourself.

So you could just use dd to copy the old drive to the new drive, manually edit the partition table to expand the last partition yourself, and you should have your old programs and the full capacity of the new drive. Unless there is also some database manipulation that has to also happen.
Unlike Dell or HP making IBM compatible PCs, TiVo does not have to meet any set standard for how the TiVo does it work inside the box, so what TiVo does is only for TiVos convenience not for DIY people like many on this forum, the new Series 5 models appear to make it very easy to upgrade the hard drive to a max of 3Tb inside and add another 1Tb external, that would give one over 600 hours of HD record time, that should be good for over 99% of TiVo users, but than there is the challenge of hacking the TiVo, been going on for over 12 years so why stop now.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:13 AM   #867
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Unlike Dell or HP making IBM compatible PCs, TiVo does not have to meet any set standard for how the TiVo does it work inside the box, so what TiVo does is only for TiVos convenience not for DIY people like many on this forum, the new Series 5 models appear to make it very easy to upgrade the hard drive to a max of 3Tb inside and add another 1Tb external, that would give one over 600 hours of HD record time, that should be good for over 99% of TiVo users, but than there is the challenge of hacking the TiVo, been going on for over 12 years so why stop now.
I know, realized my mistake, and I edited my post just before you posted. It's difficult thinking about these things while waiting in line for roller coasters. But you'd still like to copy the old stuff over to a larger hard drive *AND* expand, which is where the tools would still have a purpose.

I updated my post to say that we should be able to use 3.5 TB of a 4 TB drive with no major hacks. Using all 4 TB will be a challenge, and isn't worth it except as a challenge.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:15 AM   #868
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I know, realized my mistake, and I edited my post just before you posted. It's difficult thinking about these things while waiting in line for roller coasters. But you'd still like to copy the old stuff over to a larger hard drive *AND* expand, which is where the tools would still have a purpose.

I updated my post to say that we should be able to use 3.5 TB of a 4 TB drive with no major hacks. Using all 4 TB will be a challenge, and isn't worth it except as a challenge.

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Old 09-02-2013, 10:25 AM   #869
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For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure TiVo implemented things this way, for their own cost savings benefit, not to help out do it yourself upgraders.

With no set up difference between the Plus and Pro, there's really only 2 models: the Roamio and the Roamio Plus/Pro. Tivo throws a 1 TB drive in, it's a Plus. TiVo throws a 3 TB drive in, it's a Pro. It also makes repairing and reselling refurbished models a breeze, since all they need to do is plop in a new HD. They can even sell a refurbished Pro as a Plus or vice-versa.

Finally it makes "upgrading", the models easier. If TiVo wants to switch to use a 1 TB drive in the Roamio in a year or two, as the drives get cheaper, they can easily do so.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:08 AM   #870
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It's an invalid (gray area) APM scheme -- I don't think it was designed with that in mind, but it's not illegal (Wikipedia is wrong again -- anyone here want to edit the entry?). Tivo knows that and just carries on. The problem is that a program like gparted or an OS might flag that as an error and not let you work on that drive unless you manually edited the partition table yourself.

So you could just use dd to copy the old drive to the new drive, manually edit the partition table to expand the last partition yourself, and you should have your old programs and the full capacity of the new drive. Unless there is also some database manipulation that has to also happen. Note that would only get you 3.5 TB of the 4 TB drive, but it's painless.

If you wanted to use all 4 TB, you'd have to start moving and resizing partitions so they'd line up just right.
If you want to keep the partitions on a 4K alignment as TiVo seems to be doing with the Roamio line, the max per drive should be 4,398,046,502,912 bytes. That should utilize all of any current "4TB" drive.

Adding partitions won't work anymore once you're past the 2TB limit, but resizing and moving them should still be possible. The tough part is that it isn't just modifying the APM. You have to rewrite all of the MFS zone headers and create new MFS "bitmaps" to go along with it.

I have started reprogramming, but it's going to take a while. For one thing, the file format I'm using now can't describe a drive > 2TB. Another problem is that even though I think I know enough about MFS to pull it off, writing and testing the code is another matter. I also don't have a Roamio yet or any drives > 2TB to test with.

For now I think we'll just have to settle for 450 hours of HD.
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