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Old 08-27-2013, 05:26 PM   #61
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Also, someone (Will?) made the comment that it never would have gone unnoticed if something were actually visibly happening in the section of game in the frame. So the only clue would have been the shot clock -- the rest of the game apparently was mostly the same scene.
Pretty sure I saw a ref disappear when they showed the supposed raw footage the first time. I'm not going to download the episode to check, though. It was obvious to me it was doctored, though.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:42 PM   #62
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Pretty sure I saw a ref disappear when they showed the supposed raw footage the first time. I'm not going to download the episode to check, though. It was obvious to me it was doctored, though.
What I think the writers were thinking is that there was only part (maybe a third or a fourth) of the television in the shot, so any changes to the picture due to the editing could simply have been misinterpreted by the viewer as genuine camera cuts in the game. Without the benefit of the full context of the entire TV screen, it wouldn't be obvious that the cuts on the screen were in fact edits, except for the wonky shot clock, which doesn't require any other context to look wrong.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:46 PM   #63
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What I think the writers were thinking is that there was only part (maybe a third or a fourth) of the television in the shot, so any changes to the picture due to the editing could simply have been misinterpreted by the viewer as genuine camera cuts in the game. Without the benefit of the full context of the entire TV screen, it wouldn't be obvious that the cuts on the screen were in fact edits, except for the wonky shot clock, which doesn't require any other context to look wrong.
I can see that. Plus who is looking for it early on. Mac should've caught it on her later reviews without the clock but on the first view, everyone was focused on the answers.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:03 PM   #64
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Pretty sure I saw a ref disappear when they showed the supposed raw footage the first time. I'm not going to download the episode to check, though. It was obvious to me it was doctored, though.
Since people seem to be too lazy to click on the post I made earlier in this thread where you can see that portion of the video, here it is:





Not only does the ref disappear and the cut looks totally unnatural, but you can actually see the shot clock and it goes from 19 to 3. I don't know how Jerry could have done this and thought he was getting away with it, and I don't know how the rest of the staff could have reviewed the "raw" footage and not noticed that.

Frankly, with how obvious it was, I kind of think Sorkin screwed up here. He's always trying to make things sophisticated and complicated to show off the intellect of his characters and therefore of his writing. But with the way this was executed, it just makes everyone look really stupid, including him, since nobody in their right mind would alter the footage like that and leave the obvious tell of the shot clock in the edge of the frame.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:09 PM   #65
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I don't know how the rest of the staff could have reviewed the "raw" footage and not noticed that.
i was thinking the same about me!
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:34 PM   #66
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Since people seem to be too lazy to click on the post I made earlier in this thread where you can see that portion of the video, here it is:





Not only does the ref disappear and the cut looks totally unnatural, but you can actually see the shot clock and it goes from 19 to 3. I don't know how Jerry could have done this and thought he was getting away with it, and I don't know how the rest of the staff could have reviewed the "raw" footage and not noticed that.

Frankly, with how obvious it was, I kind of think Sorkin screwed up here. He's always trying to make things sophisticated and complicated to show off the intellect of his characters and therefore of his writing. But with the way this was executed, it just makes everyone look really stupid, including him, since nobody in their right mind would alter the footage like that and leave the obvious tell of the shot clock in the edge of the frame.
How much time did he have to edit it? And I think it's important to realize that we have the benefit of dramatic irony here. I think it is reasonable that he edited it hastily and no one noticed, but I do think the first time someone looked at the footage after the general called to complain, at that point it would be obvious and should have been noticed.

I also think the machinations in the script to make Mac the person who realized it were over the top. Giant clock and conversations about shot clocks.
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Old 08-27-2013, 07:22 PM   #67
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I also think the machinations in the script to make Mac the person who realized it were over the top. Giant clock and conversations about shot clocks.
Yeah they were over the top. Most people I know who don't like basketball but try to ask questions to sound interested would ask things like where is the game being played, who do you want to win, or is it a good game? Not what is that small clock counting down in the corner?
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:21 PM   #68
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Yeah, what he did was necessary (make it clear how Mac figured out what had happened, with all the necessary build-up along the way), but the way he did it was very clumsy. It would have taken a lot more work, I think, to do the same thing well, and I think in a show at this level he should have taken the effort. Perhaps Sorkin is overdoing it by writing virtually the entire series himself..?
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:24 PM   #69
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Yeah they were over the top. Most people I know who don't like basketball but try to ask questions to sound interested would ask things like where is the game being played, who do you want to win, or is it a good game? Not what is that small clock counting down in the corner?
I thought "why are there two clocks" was a reasonable enough question. It's a question I could see my wife asking me, for example.

The transition from football to every sport that has a play clock was overly Sorkinian, though.
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:29 PM   #70
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I thought "why are there two clocks" was a reasonable enough question. It's a question I could see my wife asking me, for example.

The transition from football to every sport that has a play clock was overly Sorkinian, though.
for me the breakdown was the introduction of a countdown clock to mac. any studio that wanted could have had added that ability at any time over the past 30 years.

up until that point, it flowed naturally for me and was believable.
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:53 PM   #71
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for me the breakdown was the introduction of a countdown clock to mac. any studio that wanted could have had added that ability at any time over the past 30 years.

up until that point, it flowed naturally for me and was believable.
It wasn't for me. Will doesn't want one. Mac does. She had one made up to try to get him to use it again. That was implied in the dialog. She said something about him making up reasons to not use it this time.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:59 AM   #72
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Since people seem to be too lazy to click on the post I made earlier in this thread where you can see that portion of the video, here it is:





Not only does the ref disappear and the cut looks totally unnatural, but you can actually see the shot clock and it goes from 19 to 3. I don't know how Jerry could have done this and thought he was getting away with it, and I don't know how the rest of the staff could have reviewed the "raw" footage and not noticed that.

Frankly, with how obvious it was, I kind of think Sorkin screwed up here. He's always trying to make things sophisticated and complicated to show off the intellect of his characters and therefore of his writing. But with the way this was executed, it just makes everyone look really stupid, including him, since nobody in their right mind would alter the footage like that and leave the obvious tell of the shot clock in the edge of the frame.
Excellent points. These are supposed to be professionals. They should be LOOKING for stuff like that. And watching it, it's really noticeable that there's a jump. Isn't the whole point of the Red Teams to poke holes in the story to see if it can hold up to the holes?
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:48 AM   #73
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Excellent points. These are supposed to be professionals. They should be LOOKING for stuff like that. And watching it, it's really noticeable that there's a jump. Isn't the whole point of the Red Teams to poke holes in the story to see if it can hold up to the holes?
Again, I think it's dramatic irony at play. There are many, many, many times in a sports broadcast where things jump around in time and the like as they show previous coverage, replay important moments, do halftime analysis, show other games currently happening, show prior games with one of the teams, etc. For perfect intelligence here, they'd have to get the original game footage and compare.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:43 AM   #74
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And again, they have the problem of making it subtle enough that news professionals wouldn't catch it, and obvious enough that the average TV viewer WOULD catch it. Which of course is impossible.

And yet again, I don't think he did what he did at all well, but I do see why he had to do what he did.
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:44 PM   #75
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And again, they have the problem of making it subtle enough that news professionals wouldn't catch it, and obvious enough that the average TV viewer WOULD catch it. Which of course is impossible.

And yet again, I don't think he did what he did at all well, but I do see why he had to do what he did.
Well, he didn't HAVE to make it so us viewers knew the key was the shot clock or the game. I would have been satisfied with seeing the edit and then being delightfully surprised to see how they figured it out once the general called.

It seemed like they made Root act in a very specific way as well in order for the edit to be possible. Otherwise it would have felt off to lop off part of the sentence.
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:52 PM   #76
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Why does the cut look unnatural? So the scene changes. They actually do have more than one camera, even in basketball games. The only thing important is the time on the clock; everything else stays in place throughout where it was cut. There was also dialog about blurring/obscuring the game video so it's not unreasonable that for most of the people who would be reviewing the piece, they wouldn't even have the opportunity to see the shot clock well enough to notice a jump in the countdown timer.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:09 PM   #77
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One wonders why Dantanna couldn't schedule the interview for 9 am. Or for a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday.

One also wonders why a three star general who wants his voice and face disguised would allow his medals so be filmed in high def, and would want to be exposed on TV as a huge basketball fanatic, so huge he can't turn off the game to talk about war crimes. Like his buddies wouldn't be able to figure it out?
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:48 PM   #78
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One wonders why Dantanna couldn't schedule the interview for 9 am. Or for a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday.

One also wonders why a three star general who wants his voice and face disguised would allow his medals so be filmed in high def, and would want to be exposed on TV as a huge basketball fanatic, so huge he can't turn off the game to talk about war crimes. Like his buddies wouldn't be able to figure it out?
First because Dantanna is a putz who was focused on an agenda and not thinking of the house of cards about to come down. He had no idea of what rules the general was going to apply till he got there.

Second its not entirely clear if the general was an idiot and just liked the game or if he felt it was editing protection.

We have seen time and time again in Washington how people do not think things through and get caught.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:02 PM   #79
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Dantanna also thought he was right. He figured he was in the "framing OJ" school...it's OK to frame him if he's guilty.

I think a lot of the issues surrounding this whole storyline really do just boil down to lazy solutions to TV writer problems..."how to get all this across to the viewer who may not be paying a ton of attention," and forgetting the part about "without making the characters look like idiots."
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:57 PM   #80
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Dantanna also thought he was right. He figured he was in the "framing OJ" school...it's OK to frame him if he's guilty.

I think a lot of the issues surrounding this whole storyline really do just boil down to lazy solutions to TV writer problems..."how to get all this across to the viewer who may not be paying a ton of attention," and forgetting the part about "without making the characters look like idiots."
Except we see these stories all the time. I am waiting for the full story on the KTVU asian pilot name thing to come out. I am sure a lot of people who never heard about it and it was presented as a fiction story would say it there is no way that could happen and it was lazy writing.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:58 PM   #81
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Why does the cut look unnatural? So the scene changes. They actually do have more than one camera, even in basketball games. The only thing important is the time on the clock; everything else stays in place throughout where it was cut. There was also dialog about blurring/obscuring the game video so it's not unreasonable that for most of the people who would be reviewing the piece, they wouldn't even have the opportunity to see the shot clock well enough to notice a jump in the countdown timer.
It is true that actual camera cuts in a game do occur. But it's not common in the middle of a basketball play like that where the vast majority of the action is shown from the single camera angle. And in this particular case, the cut was just way too drastic. The ref was coming up the court meaning that the point guard was bringing the ball up the court as well. Then suddenly it cut and the players were in the middle of a play down in the key under the basket. It just didn't look natural. And finally, both pieces are from the same camera angle. There's no way the director of the game would cut to another camera that's basically in the same position and just as wide as the first one. What would be the point of that?

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First because Dantanna is a putz who was focused on an agenda and not thinking of the house of cards about to come down. He had no idea of what rules the general was going to apply till he got there.

Second its not entirely clear if the general was an idiot and just liked the game or if he felt it was editing protection.

We have seen time and time again in Washington how people do not think things through and get caught.
Having the game in the shot was not the general's idea, it was Dantana's. Jerry was the one that placed the chair where it was because he wanted to get the medals in the shot. He could just as easily have placed the chair somewhere else in the room, or zoomed the camera in just enough to cut off the edge of the TV screen. But instead, Sorkin had him do everything as clumsily as possible so he could then have his characters make some "brilliant" discovery a few episodes later. He just didn't calculate that the "brilliant" discovery would just make everyone look ever stupider than they had before, because it should have been so obvious.
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:57 PM   #82
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Best episode of the series, no doubt.

I guess I just have a different view on the general. One doesn't rise to the three star level by being a bumbling idiot. It may not have been his direct request to have the TV in the shot, but he absolutely did it for edit protection, and knew exactly what to say and how to say it. The question is: Why? What motivation does he have to try to take down ACN?

I agree that the big countdown clock in the press area was too much, but I thought her and Will's discussion about the shot clocks was great. There just needed to be something else to give her the final piece of the puzzle to want to review the raw footage.

Hoping that we'll get some more explanation on the motivations here, but I fear that we won't.

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Old 09-04-2013, 04:37 PM   #83
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just announced, by a tweet from jeff daniels last night, the show was renewed for season 3:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...-season-620110

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Old 09-04-2013, 10:48 PM   #84
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just announced, by a tweet from jeff daniels last night, the show was renewed for season 3:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...-season-620110
Good.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:10 AM   #85
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Does Sorkin write every episode? He didn't even do that when he was still working on The West Wing. He was credited with "Story By" on most WW episodes, but someone else had the written by credit.

I feel like he needs to start doing that with this show too before he burns out.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:12 AM   #86
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Does Sorkin write every episode? He didn't even do that when he was still working on The West Wing. He was credited with "Story By" on most WW episodes, but someone else had the written by credit.

I feel like he needs to start doing that with this show too before he burns out.
he's shared writing credits for two eps, the rest were credited solely to him.
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Old 09-05-2013, 09:48 AM   #87
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There's a difference between 24 episodes and 10. How many WW did he write a year?
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:27 PM   #88
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There's a difference between 24 episodes and 10. How many WW did he write a year?
You're right about that, but he's also supposed to be writing the Steve Jobs film right now. I would feel better about this show's long term chances if more people were in the writer's room.

It's one thing to have a show like Curb or Louis were the showrunners are given full control. It's another thing to have a big ensemble cast, where lots of people depend on the writers to churn out episodes. I don't feel like Sorkin can do it all on his own.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:32 PM   #89
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You're right about that, but he's also supposed to be writing the Steve Jobs film right now. I would feel better about this show's long term chances if more people were in the writer's room.

It's one thing to have a show like Curb or Louis were the showrunners are given full control. It's another thing to have a big ensemble cast, where lots of people depend on the writers to churn out episodes. I don't feel like Sorkin can do it all on his own.
I seriously doubt Sorkin is doing it all on his own. I'll bet there is a writing staff that he works with. But then once the stories are broken and the drafts are written, then Sorkin does all the work from there, fleshing out the dialogue and polishing off the scripts.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:14 PM   #90
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I seriously doubt Sorkin is doing it all on his own. I'll bet there is a writing staff that he works with.
according to online reporting, there is a writing staff, most of who were scrapped before season 2 started production:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1688267.html

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