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Old 08-26-2013, 10:07 PM   #601
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Alot of peple must be ordering the Wd 3TB AV drives. Amazon had a bunch last week for around $137 but by Sunday there were only a few left. And everytime I checked it there were fewer until they were finally out. Since the price with shipping is around $8 more now and the drive is also more at Newegg. I had been considering the upgrade route but went with the Roamio Pro instead.
Back in stock directly from Amazon. "Only 14 left in stock"
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:19 PM   #602
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That was a very good idea, to try that.

I wonder why it took so long... I used DVRBARS, in Full-Backup Mode, to backup a TiVo HD 2TB drive as well as a Premiere 2-tuner 2TB drive. It only took 4 hours, per drive, via USB3-to-SATA3 StarTech dual drive dock, on a three year old budget laptop, with a USB3 SIIG expresscard adapter (NEC chipset), running Win7 Home Premium 64-bit.

EDIT/ADD: I did change the priority level in Task Manager to "realtime" for DVRBARS, and made sure nothing unnecessary was running, as well as not doing any other tasks. I don't know if it makes a difference, but I never tried leaving the priority at "normal", just to see if it did.

I also bought a similar StarTech dual drive dock, with one bay for PATA, but it wouldn't work, the drive(s) would just make horrible noises once spun-up, and would spin-down, spin-back up, and DVRBARS aborted. Likely was unlucky enough to get a bad dock, and waited over 30 days to try it out...
All I know is that is was over 1 hour as I went to bed leaving the PC running, I am using an old HP PC with a P4 and XP, (in the cellar) not the fastest in the world but I only use this computer for TiVo upgrades and some other stuff, it is not my main computer.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:32 PM   #603
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What is preserved when swapping drives?

Perhaps I missed it but has it been determined yet what other data besides shows are stored on the hard drive vs the SSD? For example important data such as:
* Cable Card pairing
* Season Passes
* Wishlists (the non auto-record variety)
* Preferences
* Channel Lineup
* Thumbs (though I don't care about that)

Would be nice to know exactly what is and what is not preserved when throwing in a new drive.
I've seen mentioned that you are forced to go through guided setup again which seems to imply perhaps channel lineup is not preserved.
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:04 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by moyekj View Post
Perhaps I missed it but has it been determined yet what other data besides shows are stored on the hard drive vs the SSD? For example important data such as:
* Cable Card pairing
* Season Passes
* Wishlists (the non auto-record variety)
* Preferences
* Channel Lineup
* Thumbs (though I don't care about that)

Would be nice to know exactly what is and what is not preserved when throwing in a new drive.
I've seen mentioned that you are forced to go through guided setup again which seems to imply perhaps channel lineup is not preserved.
No one knows (for sure) but the most likely thing is that there is nothing stored on flash other than a stub image to get th drive partitioned and installed.
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:26 AM   #605
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I get my Plus on the 28th and will be testing as much as I can.

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Old 08-27-2013, 02:11 AM   #606
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Okay, so I took matters into my own hands and gave the 4TB a try. I've got a NAS that's running 8 4TB drives and I pulled one to do the test, the drive is a Seagate ST4000DM000 4TB.

Here's the problem I ran into. The drive needs to be formatted by Tivo, and I get this screen:



The problem is when I press "select" on the remote there is no response. I think if I can get the remote to function then all is well. Any ideas?
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:22 AM   #607
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Okay, so I took matters into my own hands and gave the 4TB a try. I've got a NAS that's running 8 4TB drives and I pulled one to do the test, the drive is a Seagate ST4000DM000 4TB.

Here's the problem I ran into. The drive needs to be formatted by Tivo, and I get this screen:

<image removed>

The problem is when I press "select" on the remote there is no response. I think if I can get the remote to function then all is well. Any ideas?
I don't see any mention that you zeroed out the drive with Seagate's utilities. I wouldn't expect anything to go well, if I took a drive out of my PC (or in your case, your NAS device) and just slapped it into any TiVo. At minimum, I'd make sure there was no form of any partitions, and clear the boot sector area of the drive.

WD's utility gives you the option to just wipe the beginning and end of the drive, which I would think would be a fast and easy way to make the TiVo see an empty drive without spending hours wiping the whole drive with zeroes.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:25 AM   #608
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So I guess there are 2 workarounds. One is to somehow get the remote to work (which I think is difficult), and the other is to format the disk on a PC in a way that the Tivo will accept it without asking it to be reformatted. I'm not very familiar with Tivo so if you guys have any ideas let me know.

As far as the process goes, it's extremely easy. It's seriously a 3-minute job. Remove a few screws and swap the drives. Given that the 3TB drives are proven to work, there's absolutely no reason to get a Roamio Pro at this point.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:26 AM   #609
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I don't see any mention that you zeroed out the drive with Seagate's utilities. I wouldn't expect anything to go well, if I took a drive out of my PC (or in your case, your NAS device) and just slapped it into any TiVo. At minimum, I'd make sure there was no form of any partitions, and clear the boot sector area of the drive.

WD's utility gives you the option to just wipe the beginning and end of the drive, which I would think would be a fast and easy way to make the TiVo see an empty drive without spending hours wiping the whole drive with zeroes.
It's actually a brand new drive. My Nas is currently running 6 4TB drives, and I had 2 brand new drives that act as hot-spares (so if one of the 6 drives fail, then it will initialize one of the extra drives and rotate it in.) So actually it's just a brand new 4TB drive.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:35 AM   #610
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Okay, so I took matters into my own hands and gave the 4TB a try. I've got a NAS that's running 8 4TB drives and I pulled one to do the test, the drive is a Seagate ST4000DM000 4TB.

Here's the problem I ran into. The drive needs to be formatted by Tivo, and I get this screen:



The problem is when I press "select" on the remote there is no response. I think if I can get the remote to function then all is well. Any ideas?
Try an old TiVo (IR) remote set to address 0. Or try putting the Roamio remote in IR mode. My guess is that RF support is not enabled yet in this part of the boot process.

Thanks for experimenting!
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:46 AM   #611
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Not everyone has a 4TB drive lying around. I have a dozen 3TB drives in use but no 4TB drives. If I had the Plus and a 4TB drive I would give it a try.
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If there was a store that would let me return the drive if it didnt work I'd probably give it a try.
That's the point, though, isn't it?

After 600 posts in this thread, if someone had a 4 TB drive laying around, or had a local store that accepted used hard drive returns, they already would have tested it. Even then, theses posts are, without saying it directly, asking;

"Could someone risk their money, hard drive and use their time to test something Weaknees has said they could not get to work."

While no one was sure there wasn't some 'secret sauce' involved, we knew 1 TB, 2 TB and 3 TB hardware worked and were almost certain 4 TB hardware did not. Hopefully, after this experiment, Kobe has not sacrificed his NAS drive.

Thanks, for your experiment Kobe.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:55 AM   #612
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So I guess there are 2 workarounds. One is to somehow get the remote to work (which I think is difficult), and the other is to format the disk on a PC in a way that the Tivo will accept it without asking it to be reformatted. I'm not very familiar with Tivo so if you guys have any ideas let me know.

As far as the process goes, it's extremely easy. It's seriously a 3-minute job. Remove a few screws and swap the drives. Given that the 3TB drives are proven to work, there's absolutely no reason to get a Roamio Pro at this point.
EDIT INSERT [I see you posted while I was typing all this, but still think it should be helpful to others]

What I meant was to make the drive appear EMPTY, and free of any foreign (non-TiVo Roamio) partitions, and without any data in the boot sector area. You DON'T want to do a PC OS format, as that would require a partition the PC's OS recognizes, to format. That formatted partition would likely give the exact same result.

You can use a PC to do it. But, you want to make the TiVo see an empty drive. Most of the time, the best way is a boot CD that bypasses Windows, and performs what is commonly called a "low-level format" (which is an out-of-date, but still-used terminology) which on modern drives simply means writing all zeros sector-by-sector.

Download whatever tools Seagate has for disk testing/troubleshooting, and if it runs within Windows/Linux/whatever, fine. Just don't use the OS itself to format the drive. Just deleting any pre-existing partitions might do, but that doesn't insure the drive will appear blank to the TiVo. You can delete a partition, then turn-around and recover it, and the data on it. This is because the data is still there, you just can't access it until you put the partition table(s) back as they were.

Short of writing zeros to the whole drive, technically there will always be data on the drive, even if you can't access it.

That's how all the partition and data recovery tools work. They scan over the dive, searching for the data, then try to rebuild the partition and file data.

If I were going to try this, I'd use WinDLG (since I use WD drives), and select "Write Zeros" then select "whole drive" and go to bed, since it will take a LONG TIME. The other option is "Write Zeros" and select "only first million sectors and last million sectors", which takes minutes, but leaves data in the middle. Wouldn't you want your drive to be fully erased, so any post-analysis or troubleshooting of the mystery 4TB issue, wouldn't involve old data in the free space? Just because the TiVo can create partitions and download the software to them, doesn't mean the TiVo zeros out the drive when you put it in. The old data just gets overwritten as the drive fills up.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:02 AM   #613
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It's actually a brand new drive. My Nas is currently running 6 4TB drives, and I had 2 brand new drives that act as hot-spares (so if one of the 6 drives fail, then it will initialize one of the extra drives and rotate it in.) So actually it's just a brand new 4TB drive.
Just a wild guess, but in my experience, hot spares in any array of disks get a signature wrote to them, that they belong to the NAS device, and what the last position of the drive was in the array.

Can you be sure? You could always start a zero-out, let it run a few minutes, abort, and know the beginning of the drive has no signature.

Some NAS or array situations also hijack a portion of the drive called the HPA (Host Protected Area), and a full low-level format is the only way to make sure it is reclaimed as available.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:06 AM   #614
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In short, only a brand new 4 TB drive need apply for this experiment. If the drive has been seen by an OS, or any other hardware that might have written any information on it, thanks but no thanks.

Kobe - unless you have time to burn, my advice is to put the drive back in your NAS and thanks for trying.

Last edited by TC25D : 08-27-2013 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:14 AM   #615
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Okay, still no go. I was able to get past that screen by accessing the Tivo through my Slingbox, because that uses IR and allows me to use a virtual remote to press "select". However, after pressing select, the box reboots, goes through a few screens "almost there", and then goes back to the original screen that asks to format.

So I've solved the remote issue. But the drive just doesn't work.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:14 AM   #616
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That's the point, though, isn't it?

After 600 posts in this thread, if someone had a 4 TB drive laying around, or had a local store that accepted used hard drive returns, they already would have tested it. Even then, theses posts are, without saying it directly, asking;

"Could someone risk their money, hard drive and use their time to test something Weaknees has said they could not get to work."

While no one was sure there wasn't some 'secret sauce' involved, we knew 1 TB, 2 TB and 3 TB hardware worked and were almost certain 4 TB hardware did not. Hopefully, after this experiment, Kobe has not sacrificed his NAS drive.

Thanks, for your experiment Kobe.
Yes, Thank You Kobe, for trying.

As far as buying a drive, that may not be compatible, or work, I'd advise against buying from Newegg. Their current RMA process and policy involves restocking fees, you pay return shipping, and I just had a HORRIBLE experience with them not crediting me for an item that was on the RMA and was in the box.

So, I'm out $50 for what they lost, or disregarded, plus restocking, plus shipping. All because the memory I bought was incompatible or defective, they bundled in a game coupon that they called "FREE", but took $49.99 off my refund, for the value of the coupon which was on the top the packing material, and also noted in my RMA description (which they didn't read). The memory was less than $60. You do the math. They got my money, the coupon, and the memory. Try even finding their phone number, and when you finally get it, try getting a live person.

Lesson learned: The low prices from Newegg can come at a STEEP COST.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:23 AM   #617
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Lesson learned: The low prices from Newegg can come at a STEEP COST.
Yep, that is why if I am even thinking that a purchase might have to be returned I will buy it from a brick&mortar store vs online. Luckily, I do live in an area filled with Fry's and Central Computer computer stores.. (and some will even match Amazon, assuming they carry the product)..

In the case of these drives tho only Amazon had the WD AV 3TBs...

Tho, Central Computer did carry the Seagate 4TB Pipeline for ~$220 (with tax) vs ~$150 3TB from Amazon (prime and tax).
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:28 AM   #618
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In short, only a brand new 4 TB drive need apply for this experiment. If the drive has been seen by an OS, or any other hardware that might have written any information on it, thanks but no thanks.

Kobe - unless you have time to burn, my advice is to put the drive back in your NAS and thanks for trying.
Yes, this is the right-to-the-point, concise, version of what I was saying.

You can make a drive completely empty again. But why, when there is a reported issue with 4TB, add more variables and unknowns, with a drive that has been used in anything else, even a new "hot spare" from any disk array.

Thanks in advance, to any pioneers willing to do what others can't, won't, or don't have the option to actually do.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:33 AM   #619
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Yep, that is why if I am even thinking that a purchase might have to be returned I will buy it from a brick&mortar store vs online. Luckily, I do live in an area filled with Fry's and Central Computer computer stores.. (and some will even match Amazon, assuming they carry the product)..

In the case of these drives tho only Amazon had the WD AV 3TBs...

Tho, Central Computer did carry the Seagate 4TB Pipeline for ~$220 (with tax) vs ~$150 3TB from Amazon (prime and tax).
I have a Fry's 30 minutes away, all freeway to get there. However, ~50% of what I have ever bought there has been DOA (dead on arrival home), defective in some way, or has failed after short time in use. This is actually the first time I had to do a RMA with Newegg, for the same kind of hardware. There's always a catch-22, just waiting for me.
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:56 AM   #620
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I have a Fry's 30 minutes away, all freeway to get there. However, ~50% of what I have ever bought there has been DOA (dead on arrival home), defective in some way, or has failed after short time in use. This is actually the first time I had to do a RMA with Newegg, for the same kind of hardware. There's always a catch-22, just waiting for me.
You do have to be careful buying from Fry's, a lot of people buy and return and sometimes they slap a "open box" label on it and throw back on the shelf (sometimes even forgetting the label). Hence the many possible DOAs.

I have bought most of my drives there over the last 20 years and only had a couple of legit DOAs (once I knew how to look at the packaging).
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Old 08-27-2013, 04:02 AM   #621
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Oh, by the way, the drive inside my Roamio was a WD AV. I think so far the other folks who opened up their Roamios reported having Seagate Pipelines, so Tivo's using a mix of drives in these machines.

So I put my original 1TB drive back in and the Roamio functions as normal, so anyone who wants to test out drives don't have to be nervous... you will not mess up anything.
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Old 08-27-2013, 04:05 AM   #622
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You do have to be careful buying from Fry's, a lot of people buy and return and sometimes they slap a "open box" label on it and throw back on the shelf (sometimes even forgetting the label). Hence the many possible DOAs.

I have bought most of my drives there over the last 20 years and only had a couple of legit DOAs (once I knew how to look at the packaging).
I have witnessed them shrink-wrap returned products, and not apply a sticker, while observing that half their PC component inventory has returned-product stickers. So, one could assume very little is truly "new in box".

Yet another Buyer Beware situation. I open and inspect before leaving the parking lot now.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:28 AM   #623
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Oh, by the way, the drive inside my Roamio was a WD AV. I think so far the other folks who opened up their Roamios reported having Seagate Pipelines, so Tivo's using a mix of drives in these machines.

So I put my original 1TB drive back in and the Roamio functions as normal, so anyone who wants to test out drives don't have to be nervous... you will not mess up anything.
I think it is just the base Roamio, with the 500GB drive that has the Seagate. The Plus and the Pro with the 1TB and 3TB drive seems to have the WD AV drives in them. Or did someone post something different for the Plus and Pro.

Although no idea why they use the Seagate 500GB AV drive instead of the WD 500GB AV drive.
The Seagtae drives do say they are good for 16 simultaneous HD streams while the WD drives say they are only good for 12.
I guess it might just come down to whichever drive is cheaper for TiVo at the time.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:18 AM   #624
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No one knows (for sure) but the most likely thing is that there is nothing stored on flash other than a stub image to get th drive partitioned and installed.
So I guess nobody has yet tried a new drive after setting up and using another for a while?
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:19 AM   #625
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So I guess nobody has yet tried a new drive after setting up and using another for a while?
Yes, they have. It worked fine.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:21 AM   #626
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Yes, they have. It worked fine.
See the context of my question above. The question is what is preserved if anything after doing so in terms of Cable Card pairing, Season Passes, Wishlists, settings, etc.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:26 AM   #627
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See the context of my question above. The question is what is preserved if anything after doing so in terms of Cable Card pairing, Season Passes, Wishlists, settings, etc.
See post #621.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:39 AM   #628
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See post #621.
No definitive answer to my question there. I do strongly suspect as jmpage2 posted that most likely with a never-before-used-in-Roamio drive inserted all data is lost and it would be like starting out with a brand new TiVo, but was wondering if anyone actually confirmed that for sure or not.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:46 AM   #629
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No definitive answer to my question there. I do strongly suspect as jmpage2 posted that most likely with a never-before-used-in-Roamio drive inserted all data is lost and it would be like starting out with a brand new TiVo, but was wondering if anyone actually confirmed that for sure or not.
The picture that Kobe posted says most settings are lost if the internal drive is formatted. That implies that most, but not all user data is on the external drive.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:48 AM   #630
TC25D
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Originally Posted by moyekj View Post
No definitive answer to my question there. I do strongly suspect as jmpage2 posted that most likely with a never-before-used-in-Roamio drive inserted all data is lost and it would be like starting out with a brand new TiVo, but was wondering if anyone actually confirmed that for sure or not.
I imagine all the data you mentioned, i.e., Cable Card pairing, Season Passes, Wishlists, settings, etc., is stored on the hard drive it would all be lost when a new drive is inserted. Only information stored on TiVo servers (is there any?), could be restored.
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