TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-26-2013, 08:57 AM   #1
barrett14
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 49
What exactly are the Tivo service fees for?

One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees?

The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees.

I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.
barrett14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 09:23 AM   #2
jrtroo
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,650
There are a million threads on this. But it has been a while, so a good time for some arguing.

Its my understanding that four main things are in the fees: Guide data, subsidy for cost of the box, software, and revenue.

Lifetime is worth it. Just do it.
__________________
TiVo Owner
jrtroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 09:30 AM   #3
jakerock
Hey ho howdy!
 
jakerock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lee, NH
Posts: 2,743
TiVo provides the guide data which is an ongoing cost for them (I assume). TiVo also provides SW updates for some amount of time.

Other than that it is just how their business works. If you don't want to pay the monthly fee then buy lifetime and assume the cost of the product plus lifetime is simply the final cost of the unit. If that is too expensive then don't buy it. I personally enjoy the TiVo enough that I own three units with lifetime and have been very happy with the situation (though I'd be even happier if it were cheaper but that goes for anything I'm buying).
__________________
A sufficiently advanced troll
jakerock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 09:40 AM   #4
barrett14
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 49
Ya I bought the lifetime with the new Roamio because to me it was still worth it, even though I feel like it is very over priced.

I understand that software updates etc... cost money, but plenty of companies provide software updates on products that don't require fees.

I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.
barrett14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 09:41 AM   #5
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett14 View Post
One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees?

The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees.

I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.
The Stream does not require a service fee.

The bottom line is TiVo uses service fees to make money. They have chosen a model where they don't sell the boxes for enough money to be profitable and use the service fee to compensate for that.

If you don't like paying a monthly service fee they do allow you to pay the fee in full upfront, it is called lifetime (of the box it is bought for) service.

When I evaluate how much a TiVo DVR cost I just use the lifetime fee to come up with a number to evaluate.
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 09:48 AM   #6
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett14 View Post
Ya I bought the lifetime with the new Roamio because to me it was still worth it, even though I feel like it is very over priced.

I understand that software updates etc... cost money, but plenty of companies provide software updates on products that don't require fees.

I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.
DVRs in general cost allot of money. If you would like to see a comparison of the 3 year costs of a 3 TV whole home system using a TiVo Roamio DVR & Mini's versus TWC in my area look here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...39#post9775339

__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 09:59 AM   #7
WhiskeyTango
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,777
Consider it a licensing fee. You are essentially leasing their software.
WhiskeyTango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 10:36 AM   #8
mr.unnatural
Registered User
 
mr.unnatural's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,701
Guide data is free to the end user. You can download it and access it without paying for the Tivo service. Tivo does have to pay for guide data, but they recover the cost in the Tivo fee they charge to licensed subscribers. Tivo primarily charges you for licensing their software. When you activate your Tivo, you essentially turn on the software so that it allows you to use the various DVR features (i.e., the ability to record, set up season passes, use the search function, etc.).

IIRC, most Tivos will allow you to use the tuners at no charge for viewing live TV. You should be able to activate a cablecard and use the Tivo as a HD tuner without paying for the Tivo service. You just can't record anything without paying the fee. Think of the Tivo software as freeware without all of the features available until you purchase the license key. You can use some of the features, but it's basically crippled until you pay the full fee.

Newer Tivos are heavily subsidized by Tivo. They sell them to you cheap because they know that they will be able to recover the cost of the box by locking you into a contract, much the same way that DirecTV does it, except that DirecTV leases the hardware and doesn't sell it outright anymore (although I believe you do have the option to purchase it).
mr.unnatural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 11:17 AM   #9
murgatroyd
Don't stop believin'
 
murgatroyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 23,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett14 View Post
The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box.
I won't address the other issues like the subsidy of the hardware, because people have already done that.

You're paying for a service. Just like the water company, the electric company, the gas company, phone companies.

Just because other people provide guide data that you can download for free somewhere else doesn't mean the guide data is "free". Someone, somewhere, has to pay for it. Servers cost money to build and run.

Personally? I'm an old fart, and I used to record stuff with a VCR. I used to go through TV Guide or online listings and set up all my recordings by hand. You know when the timeslot changes for a show, because the network decided to move it that week? I had to keep track of all that stuff and change the recording, by hand.

Now that I have TiVo, I'm essentially paying for an assistant to do all that work for me. I think I'm getting good value for what I pay, considering that the TiVo can find shows for me that I don't know about. That's not possible when you are setting up your recordings by hand.
__________________
"The capacity of human beings to disappoint me is never ending." -- Ereth
murgatroyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #10
UCLABB
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett14 View Post
One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees?

The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees.

I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.
An analogy would be getting an iPhone for $199. It costs your phone company a lot more than that, but they make up for the difference through their monthly fees.
UCLABB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 02:36 PM   #11
davezatz
Funkadelic
 
davezatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,322
Another point worth making is that it's a sliding subsidy... when you buy a Roamio Pro, TiVo is making more off of recurring or Lifetime fees than when buying the Plus or Base model. I'd say the Plus is the sweet spot in terms of cost/benefit with the option of later updating the drive. My Mini, at $250 ($100 hardware + $150 Lifetime), is indeed overpriced. But I paid it anyway.
davezatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 03:15 PM   #12
mr.unnatural
Registered User
 
mr.unnatural's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by murgatroyd View Post
Personally? I'm an old fart, and I used to record stuff with a VCR.
Hey, I represent that remark.
mr.unnatural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 03:48 PM   #13
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett14 View Post
One thing I never understood about Tivo - what service are they providing that demands these high fees?

The only thing I see them doing is providing a TV Guide to the box. The new Tivo Stream also requires a monthly fee when it does the exact same thing as Slingbox, which requires no monthly fees.

I honestly don't have any problem paying a monthly fee as long as I feel like the service I am getting justifies it - but I just don't see it in this situation.
The thing that makes a TiVo a TiVo is the TiVo software, and the subscription is the price to use the software.

The hardware is the loss leader to get you to pay them to use the software.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 06:45 PM   #14
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
The thing that makes a TiVo a TiVo is the TiVo software, and the subscription is the price to use the software.

The hardware is the loss leader to get you to pay them to use the software.
TiVo could have just done a single price model, like when you get lifetime service, but they broke up the pricing for, IMHO, for two reasons #1 let the customer choose monthly or Lifetime and #2 it cuts down on the retail markup, if Best buy say sold a Mini for $99 they would pay TiVo about $70 for the Mini, if Best Buy had to sell the Mini for $250 they would pay TiVo about $180 for the Mini, so in one case TiVo get a gross income from a Mini of $220 in the other case TiVo only gets $180. Also tax is different in some states, in CT the tax on TiVo type of service is only 1% and 6.35% on the hardware, so if I purchase a Mini from TiVo directly with lifetime my cost with tax is only $258.85. I think it also helps us with resale as lifetime service never goes bad so one can sell your used TiVo for close to the Lifetime cost (if you have Lifetime on it).
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis,
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2013, 10:42 PM   #15
replaytv
Lunatic Fringe
 
replaytv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Denver ish Colorado
Posts: 4,064
I think the price for the fees or lifetime is too much, that is why I always buy used lifetime or evaluation models for cheap. Or I buy used Series 1 Tivos with lifetime activated before January 20th 2000 and transfer the lifetime to Premiere, or now to a Romeo (where forth are thee ) But I also use non lifetimed TiVos as 1/2 hour time shift machines that I leave on the two channels I usually watch for news. Then I can fast forward through the commercials and drivel about the Queen or some bus that fell off a roadway in India.
replaytv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 01:01 AM   #16
Worf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett14 View Post
I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.
TiVo has competition. It's called the cablebox DVR which can be had for a few bucks a month. And TiVo has been hurt heavily by it - though less so since TiVo owns a number of core DVR patents.

OTOH, given how crappy cablebox DVRs are, that tells you what you get "for free" - basically they ship something that sorta-kinda works, because the cable companies don't want to spend a penny on the software, so anyone that can provide them with the necessary customizations the cheapest get it. If it records, it's a miracle.

But effectively, the cable companies killed 3rd party DVRs - see what happened to the ReplayTV - it didn't keep up with CableCARD and rapidly got out of date.

And no, guide data is NOT free. If you look at third party guide data sellers (for old ReplayTV units, Windows Media Center, etc), they're charging $10+/month for the data per device. The reason is the source of the guide data does a lot of work to keep the data organized (the data often comes to the source companies (like Tribune/Zap2it or TV Guide) like the grid you see in the papers - they have to digitize the grid, cross-reference the episodes and descriptions and add in other identifiers), so they allow people to subscribe to it for a fee. It's just our existing cable fees, etc. pay for that information.

Of course, TiVo pays a lot less because they're not doing subscriptions for a few thousand users - they're doing bulk licensing.
Worf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 09:56 AM   #17
mr.unnatural
Registered User
 
mr.unnatural's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett14 View Post
I wish that Tivo had a decent competitor... That, more than anything, would drive costs down.
Tivo has lots of competitors. Every cable and satellite provider has their own DVRs. This is extremely attractive to some people because they don't have to deal with a box they own. If it breaks they just exchange it for a new one. No upfront costs to buy the hardware and the monthly fees are on a par with what Tivo charges, and sometimes slightly less. Of course, they don't have the same features as a Tivo, but these devices are aimed at customers that either don't care about the extra bells and whistles a Tivo provides or they just don't know enough about them to make an informed decision.

Another chief competitor is the HTPC. This is geared more towards the enthusiast, but it's not the daunting device that many make it out to be. Most Tivo owners just want a device that acts as an appliance. The argument can easily be made that a well configured HTPC is exactly that. The only maintenance I perform on mine is dealing with the monthly Windows updates that Microsoft sends out as well as an occasional driver update. Other than that, there's really nothing else that I need to do to keep it running except maybe an occasional reboot, which I seldom have to do. It's every bit as reliable as the few dozen Tivos I've owned over the years.

The best part is that a HTPC is configurable to be just about anything you want whereas a Tivo just comes with whatever it comes with. There are no monthly fees associated with a HTPC over and above what you pay for your TV service plus the cost of a cablecard rental. Guide data doesn't cost you anything and a Windows 7 or 8 license is far less expensive than Tivo's lifetime service. FWIW, Tivo is still playing catchup with features HTPC owners have enjoyed for years.

Unfortunately, neither of the above has driven Tivo's costs down for the consumer. If anything, the lifetime fee is 4 or 5 times what it was originally and the monthly fees have gone up considerably. The hardware may be subsidized, but you're just paying for it in longer installments.
mr.unnatural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 10:28 AM   #18
Grakthis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
Lifetime is worth it. Just do it.
We've had this conversation in about a million threads, but it just isn't. You have to keep the same box with no desire to upgrade for almost 3 years to make your money back and after that your profit is tiny, because it's a discounted 12.99 a month (how much is a payment of 12.99 worth 3 years from now?). No one in finance would advise you to take that bet. Which is why TiVo sets the price where they do.
Grakthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 10:58 AM   #19
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
We've had this conversation in about a million threads, but it just isn't. You have to keep the same box with no desire to upgrade for almost 3 years to make your money back and after that your profit is tiny, because it's a discounted 12.99 a month (how much is a payment of 12.99 worth 3 years from now?). No one in finance would advise you to take that bet. Which is why TiVo sets the price where they do.
Worrying about the time value of money right now is a waist of time for most people and it is not 3 years before you are head with lifetime it is only 31 months for people getting MSD.

If you like paying monthly please do so, it helps TiVo be more profitable and helps assure they will be around a long time to keep providing me my lifetime service, which has long ago reduced the cost of service on all my units to significantly below the cost of having actually paid monthly on them.
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio

Last edited by atmuscarella : 08-27-2013 at 11:04 AM.
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 11:27 AM   #20
Grakthis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
Worrying about the time value of money right now is a waist of time for most people and it is not 3 years before you are head with lifetime it is only 31 months for people getting MSD.

If you like paying monthly please do so, it helps TiVo be more profitable and helps assure they will be around a long time to keep providing me my lifetime service, which has long ago reduced the cost of service on all my units to significantly below the cost of having actually paid monthly on them.
In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?

31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years." Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.

edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.
Grakthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 11:48 AM   #21
atmuscarella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 3,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?
I have lots of money sitting a zero interest bank account and some in accounts under .05% so no the TVM does not matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years." Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.
It is not a minor detail that you post incorrect information to try support an opinion as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.
Yes it is. You have no way of proving your statement (and I have no way of disproving it). It is your opinion and I do not agree with you.

The factual information I have is my own experience which is:
  1. Series 2 TiVo lifetime service cost now under $3.15/mo
  2. TiVo HD lifetime service cost now under $4.70/mo plus unit is worth about $300 more because of lifetime
  3. Series 3 lifetime service costs now under $4.30/mo and unit is worth about $300 because of lifetime service
  4. Premiere lifetime service cost now under $5.90/mo and unit is worth about $350 more because of lifetime service
Like I said go ahead and pay more if you want too.
__________________
atmuscarella
R.I.P. - 04/04 - Dish 510
09/05 - Humax T-800
R.I.P. - 08/06 - TiVo
05/08 - TiVo HD
06/08 - Panasonic 50PZ800U 50" Plazma!!
03/10 - Series 3
11/10 - Premiere
09/13 - Roamio

Last edited by atmuscarella : 08-27-2013 at 11:55 AM.
atmuscarella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 12:57 PM   #22
waterchange
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 111
Tivo lifetime = smart buyer. But it's a huge expense that if you can't afford, you go monthly. If you really think paying monthly is the better decision, go for it.

Regarding an HTPC, I could build one. My wife wouldn't be able to do that but she can buy, setup, and operate a Tivo. My in-laws certainly wouldn't have a clue how to build/procure an HTPC (let alone know what a "reboot" is) but they can use a Tivo. I could set one up for these folks and friends but I wouldn't want to. Nor would I want the support headaches, minor or not, that these folks would encounter. It takes skill/expertise/knowledge to build these things. Once you have something working stably, I'm sure a non-techie can operate an HTPC. It's getting to that point is why they will always be a niche market.
waterchange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 01:20 PM   #23
mr.unnatural
Registered User
 
mr.unnatural's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterchange View Post
Tivo lifetime = smart buyer. But it's a huge expense that if you can't afford, you go monthly. If you really think paying monthly is the better decision, go for it.

Regarding an HTPC, I could build one. My wife wouldn't be able to do that but she can buy, setup, and operate a Tivo. My in-laws certainly wouldn't have a clue how to build/procure an HTPC (let alone know what a "reboot" is) but they can use a Tivo. I could set one up for these folks and friends but I wouldn't want to. Nor would I want the support headaches, minor or not, that these folks would encounter. It takes skill/expertise/knowledge to build these things. Once you have something working stably, I'm sure a non-techie can operate an HTPC. It's getting to that point is why they will always be a niche market.
No argument about the HTPC. It's definitely not for everyone and not something you'd necessarily want to give to your in-laws. Tivos are ideal for the non-technically inclined, but then so is the cableco's DVR. Tivo owners tend to fall somewhere in between. They like the convenience and features and don't mind paying a bit extra for them.

My wife is about as inept as they come when dealing with technology. If the TV's on the wrong input she goes ballistic because she can't figure out how to get it working. When I gave up using a Tivo in my home theater I put it in the family room for her to use. When I finally pulled the plug and cancelled the Tivo service I replaced the Tivo with a small form factor HTPC. So far she's been using it with no problems going on almost two years now. Believe me when I tell you, if my wife can use a WMC PC, then anyone can.

OTOH, it's still a PC and issues may crop up on occasion. I've found that as long as you don't use it for surfing the web or for other day-to-day PC functions it keeps humming along without a hitch. A lot of people cringe at the thought of using a PC dedicated for watching TV and movies or listening to music. They think it's either overkill, too expensive, or too complicated when it's actually none of the above. When you consider how many separate components it can replace, it's actually quite inexpensive.

There is a huge misconception about the level of skill required to build a HTPC. If you can replace a hard drive then you can easily build a HTPC. It's no different than putting together a standard desktop PC except that you may add a tuner card or some additional software. Media Center is built into every version of Windows 7, except Home Basic, and is available as an add-on for Windows 8 for about $10. Now, if you really want to add some advanced features, like upconverting standard DVDs for the best picture quality or setting up an alternative media center front end, then things start getting a bit more complex. Sticking with Windows Media Center will keep it simple and easy to set up and use. The great thing about it is that you have lots of choices and can experiment to your heart's content as well as maximize your skillset.

I won't get into the area of sharing TV and movies with other rooms because that's a topic that can create a whole new discussion and is outside the realm of this thread.

In case anyone's interested, Assassin has just made his blog free to the public whereas it used to cost $25 to join. It's got the most detailed tutorials and guides available for building and configuring a HTPC for anything from using it as a DVR to an audiophile quality PC. Here's the link:

http://assassinhtpcblog.com/

For those of you that may be a bit more adventurous, he also has a website dedicated to building media servers. Here's that link:

http://www.assassinserver.com

Last edited by mr.unnatural : 08-27-2013 at 01:29 PM.
mr.unnatural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 01:44 PM   #24
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
In that case, give me 10G right now and I'll give it back to you in 3 years. Since TVM doesn't matter, right?

31 months is over 2.5 years and I said "almost 3 years." Don't be a pedant. No one likes a pedant.

edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.
If you can sell on E-Bay or such you are dead wrong!! (Except for people that would have to pay a credit card interest of over 20%), I have a Series 2 connected to a cable box (that come with my cable service package) for over 8 years now, no fees. (used in one of my guest bedrooms) The new S5 TiVos should last for the next 10 years or more for DVRing cable TV, there will not be any more advances in the TiVo line of products that will make the S5 obsolete for DVR use. 4K is 10 to 20 years away, if ever, for the retail customer and not needed for the average size HDTV most people are getting. With the S5 dropping in a new hard drive will be less complicated than changing a computer hard drive.
And we are only talking about $400 per TiVo, ($500 for the first TiVo on a new account) not much of a gamble in todays world.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis,
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 03:31 PM   #25
mr.unnatural
Registered User
 
mr.unnatural's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
edit: just to be clear, this is not a debate. It is absolutely factual that the average buyer WILL NOT benefit from a lifetime on a TiVo box. Even the average buyer who is active on this forum will not.
It definitely is a debate since you're the one debating it. Just saying it's factual doesn't make it so. I'm pretty sure the average Tivo user on this forum most certainly keeps their Tivos long enough to benefit from the cost of purchasing lifetime service.

Fact: Tivos with lifetime are worth more than Tivos without lifetime. Resale value of non-lifetime Tivos is almost nil unless the Tivo has been upgraded.

Fact: Most Tivo users that purchase lifetime are more likely to keep their Tivos in service long enough to recoup their cost of lifetime service. If they do not keep them then they can easily recover the difference by selling a lifetime unit on ebay.

Fact: Vendors like Weaknees couldn't stay in business if there weren't enough Tivo owners interested in keeping their Tivos alive long enough to benefit from a lifetime plan. That doesn't even take into account the number of Tivo owners that upgrade drives themselves.

Fact: If you keep a Tivo on a month-to-month plan for the life of the Tivo, chances are you'll end up spending more than if you purchased the lifetime service. The only caveat is if it's a 2nd Tivo with MSD, in which case it would take a bit longer to make up the difference (although I believe lifetime is less expensive for the 2nd or 3rd Tivo, etc.).
mr.unnatural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 04:27 PM   #26
Kolenka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by lessd View Post
4K is 10 to 20 years away, if ever, for the retail customer and not needed for the average size HDTV most people are getting. With the S5 dropping in a new hard drive will be less complicated than changing a computer hard drive.
That's a pretty bold statement to make (emphasis mine). Usually tech that far out isn't purchasable yet. Yet I can go buy a 4K TV if I was really wanting one today. Stuff that upscales or passes through 4K over HDMI is on the market already. What is missing is the content, which is not terribly far behind, maybe a couple years before we start seeing mainstream access to movies. They've already got a mechanism for simulcasting 1080p and 4K that can be used for OTA and Terrestrial broadcast fleshed out.

Now, will it be a TV seller? Ha, no. But over the next 5 years or so, the tech will get cheap enough that you'll probably see 1080p/4K sets for cheap/midrange models like we've seen 720p/1080p for the last few years as 1080p displays have pushed out the older tech from the cheap models.

Personally, I'm not expecting much benefit from 4K in the home except for those doing projectors and the larger 70-80" behemoths. But I am waiting for OLED to come down in price right now, and I wouldn't be surprised that when it enters my price range, they might be 4K as well.
Kolenka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 05:33 PM   #27
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 6,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolenka View Post
That's a pretty bold statement to make (emphasis mine). Usually tech that far out isn't purchasable yet. Yet I can go buy a 4K TV if I was really wanting one today. Stuff that upscales or passes through 4K over HDMI is on the market already. What is missing is the content, which is not terribly far behind, maybe a couple years before we start seeing mainstream access to movies. They've already got a mechanism for simulcasting 1080p and 4K that can be used for OTA and Terrestrial broadcast fleshed out.

Now, will it be a TV seller? Ha, no. But over the next 5 years or so, the tech will get cheap enough that you'll probably see 1080p/4K sets for cheap/midrange models like we've seen 720p/1080p for the last few years as 1080p displays have pushed out the older tech from the cheap models.

Personally, I'm not expecting much benefit from 4K in the home except for those doing projectors and the larger 70-80" behemoths. But I am waiting for OLED to come down in price right now, and I wouldn't be surprised that when it enters my price range, they might be 4K as well.
Will 4K be available, yes, will some people get 4K in the next 5 years, yes, but will it become main stream, IMHO no, just as DVD audio is available, but I don't know anybody that is using it, but everybody I know has a DVR, Cable co or TiVo, everybody I know has a HDTV, and has a DVD player, 50% have a BD player. Will there be a big market for a 4K DVR in the next 10 years, again I don't think so. I have a 80" HDTV and a normal DVD looks very good, yes BD is better but not enough better that I will order BDs from Netflix, just DVDs (much easier to copy if I need to). I have a surround sound digital THX preamp from Meridian that I got in 1997, still does a great job, Tower PC are dropping as the computer of choice by most people, but my tower PC with the I7 extreme that is now almost 4 years old still has a rank in the top 5% as tested by PC PitStop , the only upgrade I have done is a SSD drive, I think I will be able to keep using this computer for at least the next 5 years or more, in the past I could never say that about a PC. Most technology reaches a top when improvements become less and less needed for most people or get replaced by something better, like the VCR to the DVR, as vinyl records to CD and now for some people back to vinyl records, that why I think the Roamio will be the last DVR for most people, as I can't see any improvements TiVo could make to the DVR function that would cause me to upgrade again (yes they could make one that could hold say 1000 hours of HD but 300 hours of HD is all I need now and Roamio could go to 450 hours if needed). The first TV standard lasted 60 years, this one should last at least 30 more years.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis,
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 09:07 PM   #28
WO312
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 1,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.unnatural View Post
No argument about the HTPC. It's definitely not for everyone and not something you'd necessarily want to give to your in-laws. Tivos are ideal for the non-technically inclined, but then so is the cableco's DVR. Tivo owners tend to fall somewhere in between. They like the convenience and features and don't mind paying a bit extra for them.

My wife is about as inept as they come when dealing with technology. If the TV's on the wrong input she goes ballistic because she can't figure out how to get it working. When I gave up using a Tivo in my home theater I put it in the family room for her to use. When I finally pulled the plug and cancelled the Tivo service I replaced the Tivo with a small form factor HTPC. So far she's been using it with no problems going on almost two years now. Believe me when I tell you, if my wife can use a WMC PC, then anyone can.

OTOH, it's still a PC and issues may crop up on occasion. I've found that as long as you don't use it for surfing the web or for other day-to-day PC functions it keeps humming along without a hitch. A lot of people cringe at the thought of using a PC dedicated for watching TV and movies or listening to music. They think it's either overkill, too expensive, or too complicated when it's actually none of the above. When you consider how many separate components it can replace, it's actually quite inexpensive.

There is a huge misconception about the level of skill required to build a HTPC. If you can replace a hard drive then you can easily build a HTPC. It's no different than putting together a standard desktop PC except that you may add a tuner card or some additional software. Media Center is built into every version of Windows 7, except Home Basic, and is available as an add-on for Windows 8 for about $10. Now, if you really want to add some advanced features, like upconverting standard DVDs for the best picture quality or setting up an alternative media center front end, then things start getting a bit more complex. Sticking with Windows Media Center will keep it simple and easy to set up and use. The great thing about it is that you have lots of choices and can experiment to your heart's content as well as maximize your skillset.

I won't get into the area of sharing TV and movies with other rooms because that's a topic that can create a whole new discussion and is outside the realm of this thread.

In case anyone's interested, Assassin has just made his blog free to the public whereas it used to cost $25 to join. It's got the most detailed tutorials and guides available for building and configuring a HTPC for anything from using it as a DVR to an audiophile quality PC. Here's the link:

http://assassinhtpcblog.com/

For those of you that may be a bit more adventurous, he also has a website dedicated to building media servers. Here's that link:

http://www.assassinserver.com
Thanks for the link. Looks interesting. I'd like to upgrade my basic HTPC with different (better) software.
WO312 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 10:15 PM   #29
mattack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: sunnyvale
Posts: 17,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
But effectively, the cable companies killed 3rd party DVRs - see what happened to the ReplayTV - it didn't keep up with CableCARD and rapidly got out of date.
That's revisionist history.

ReplayTV was committing(/accomodating) blatant copyright infringement -- allowing people to send recordings to each other -- and being sued to death. They were also being sued for the automatic commercial skipping, which they removed in a later version.

I too wish there were other viable competitors to Tivo, and I say that as a huge Tivo fan. (Viable == as reliable as -- and I've had Tivos die.)
mattack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2013, 10:28 PM   #30
JoeTaxpayer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattack View Post

ReplayTV was committing(/accomodating) blatant copyright infringement -- allowing people to send recordings to each other -- and being sued to death.
I can easily set my computer to pull a copy of a show to stream to others. But you are right, I recall the feature was built into the Replay.

While lower prices would always be nice, I'm curious what OP thinks the fair price is for a lifetime service machine.
__________________
Toshiba SD-H400, Tivo Series 2, Tivo HD, TiVo Series 3 THX, TiVo Premiere (All upgraded with extra HD goodness) and an XL4.
JoeTaxpayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:33 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |