TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Roamio DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average.
Old 08-23-2013, 01:28 PM   #1
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
Arrow No upgrade incentive from TiVo!

TiVo is obviously not too anxious to encourage existing TiVo owners to ďupgradeĒ to a Roamio! I attempted to do so today, but they wonít ďcancelĒ my old service contract (goes to 2/2014) and start a new service contract on the Roamio. I either have to pay off the old service contract or pay the early termination fee. I donít need the extra DVR and I donít have a relative or friend who wants to take on the contractual obligation, even if I give them my Premier box. I believe this will result in a loss of revenue for TiVo in the long run as I suspect 6 months from now, they will reduce the price of the Roamio, or something better might come along from another company. Itís my understanding that TiVo is already in some financial stress; they could help alleviate it by providing some financial encouragement to existing TiVo owners to upgrade without actually reducing the price of the new product. They may lose some owner loyalty to this practice!
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 01:36 PM   #2
TZeruk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4
Ugh really? I just had to re-up my 1-year service for my premiere (I have MSD on it from an old tivo and paying a year at a time saves money as well). I was hoping I could call them up and tell them I'd like to order a Roamio and transfer service, but seems like they aren't budging?
TZeruk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 01:41 PM   #3
ppartekim
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Middle of Silicon Valley, next to the mothership
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TZeruk View Post
Ugh really? I just had to re-up my 1-year service for my premiere (I have MSD on it from an old tivo and paying a year at a time saves money as well). I was hoping I could call them up and tell them I'd like to order a Roamio and transfer service, but seems like they aren't budging?
I would still give it a shot... especially if you did it within a 30dya period. All they can say is no.. but if pressed enough.. who knows... squeaky wheel and all that....
ppartekim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #4
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklinc View Post
Itís my understanding that TiVo is already in some financial stress; they could help alleviate it by providing some financial encouragement to existing TiVo owners to upgrade without actually reducing the price of the new product. They may lose some owner loyalty to this practice!
Why? TiVO heavily subsidizes most of their hardware prices - not as much as the phone companies do, but the same principle. The subsidy and then eventual profit they get comes out of the service contracts, not any hardware. If they allow service contracts to not be finished, then they may actually lose money on that customer. Are you upset at wireless companies for insisting on fulfillment of your phone contracts?

(TiVo is in no financial stress at all. They've got half a billion dollars in the bank due to the patent court settlements (that's what's paying for the R&D for the Roamios and Minis.))
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 02:15 PM   #5
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
I donít like cellular phone company contracts either, but it is possible to get out of them. I wonít describe the process here, but there is legal precedent which can be invoked if necessary. They usually wonít allow it to reach court level as it will cost them more to defend than to eat the cost of the unexpired contract. I donít condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts unless there is a legitimate reason (moved, poor service, poor equipment, etc.).
I was actually offering to give TiVo additional business as I now might not renew my service with them. Otherwise, like the cell phone companies who renew your contract when you ask to upgrade your cell phone before your contract expires, they actually are guaranteed another two years of contractual obligation from the time of the upgrade. TiVo could have done this for me, guaranteeing them at least an additional 6 months of contractual obligation from me, which they will now lose. I can guarantee you they make something on the sale of the box!
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 02:28 PM   #6
sbiller
Registered User
 
sbiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter View Post
(TiVo is in no financial stress at all. They've got half a billion dollars in the bank due to the patent court settlements (that's what's paying for the R&D for the Roamios and Minis.))
TiVo will have a little over $1 billion of cash on-hand when they report earnings next Tuesday due to the $490 million one-time payment associated with the Cisco/Google/Arris/TWC settlement.
sbiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 02:37 PM   #7
jrtroo
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,352
I think there is little *financial* incentive because there is a lot of excitement of the new *features* as an incentive. Way more hype and love for tivo here than when the premiere came out.
__________________
TiVo Owner
jrtroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 02:39 PM   #8
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklinc View Post
I donít like cellular phone company contracts either, but it is possible to get out of them. I wonít describe the process here, but there is legal precedent which can be invoked if necessary. They usually wonít allow it to reach court level as it will cost them more to defend than to eat the cost of the unexpired contract. I donít condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts unless there is a legitimate reason (moved, poor service, poor equipment, etc.).
I was actually offering to give TiVo additional business as I now might not renew my service with them. Otherwise, like the cell phone companies who renew your contract when you ask to upgrade your cell phone before your contract expires, they actually are guaranteed another two years of contractual obligation from the time of the upgrade. TiVo could have done this for me, guaranteeing them at least an additional 6 months of contractual obligation from me, which they will now lose. I can guarantee you they make something on the sale of the box!
TiVo has always lost money on hardware (except for their top-end models). Every single year, their financial statements show a significantly higher cost of producing hardware than revenue from producing hardware. They have no reason to lie about it; they say they make it up with their service income. It's part of their standard discussions with analysts in most quarterly reports. They are a very low volume hardware producer with absolutely no in-house manufacturing capability at all. Actual hardware production is entirely contracted out.

They have never wanted to build hardware, but the standalone DVR market turned out to be so small that the big players (Sony, Toshiba, Philips, Humax, AT&T) all abandoned them and TiVo had to arrange their own manufacturing chain.

So you don't condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts, but you think it's perfectly fine to ask it of TiVo?
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #9
jcaudle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 217
I have no idea how tivo works early termination. But with cell phone companies don't you just cancel and pay the early termination fee?
jcaudle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:16 PM   #10
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcaudle View Post
I have no idea how tivo works early termination. But with cell phone companies don't you just cancel and pay the early termination fee?
Not always. You can get out of a cell phone contract for reasons of poor service, poor equipment, etc., as I stated before, without paying the early termination fee. I have done it.
Also, as I stated before, I have "gotten out" of cell phone contracts when I upgraded my equipment before the contract ended. They just start the clock over with the new equipment, guaranteeing them another two years of contractual service.
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:22 PM   #11
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
So you don't condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts, but you think it's perfectly fine to ask it of TiVo?[/quote]

I didn't ask them to terminate my service contract early. I asked them to transfer it to new equipment and start the clock over, just as I have done many times with cellular telephones, guaranteeing them another six months of contractual service.

I stand by my original post, which was only to alert TiVo users that the company will not allow you to transfer your service contract to a new piece of equipment which they are trying to promote.
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:26 PM   #12
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbiller View Post
TiVo will have a little over $1 billion of cash on-hand when they report earnings next Tuesday due to the $490 million one-time payment associated with the Cisco/Google/Arris/TWC settlement.
I am glad that TiVo is so cash rich since I now am committed to another six months of service from them. I also applaud them for defending their patents. As I recall, patents are granted for 17 years. I wonder how far they are into their patent grants? If the future of their business is dependent on suing other companies for violating their patents, I'm glad I have only another six months obligation with them!
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:28 PM   #13
jrtroo
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,352
Ask all you want. Tivo's message really is that it takes a one year agreement to make back the loss on the fixed costs of the box, perhaps with a little return mixed in.
__________________
TiVo Owner
jrtroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:29 PM   #14
jrtroo
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,352
The suits are pretty much done, and Tivo has to live by their own merits (and deserved cash reserves) now.
__________________
TiVo Owner
jrtroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:29 PM   #15
innocentfreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,444
Did you try to order a TiVo from TiVo?

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20

You need to buy one locally and then do the swap if you qualify.

The reason being is usually the call center has to sell the TiVo activated with a plan.
__________________
1 - TiVo Roamio Pro
2 - TiVo Premiere XL

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
innocentfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:49 PM   #16
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post
Did you try to order a TiVo from TiVo?

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20

You need to buy one locally and then do the swap if you qualify.

The reason being is usually the call center has to sell the TiVo activated with a plan.
Thanks for the tip. Not sure what "buy one locally" means. I'm also not sure what qualifies me for a "swap". Any recommendations?

Sorry for the reply above. After checking your link, it appears that my "contract" is not transferrable. Fortunately, I learned that before I ordered a Roamio anyway after speaking with a TiVo representative. They could have gotten another six months out of me beyond my original contract if they had allowed the transfer.

Last edited by bklinc : 08-23-2013 at 03:59 PM.
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 04:16 PM   #17
innocentfreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,444
By buy one locally I mean from Best Buy, Amazon, etc. Any retailer other than TiVo since you can buy a box without a plan.

I am guessing you have a $12.95 sub which is why. It doesn't cover the hardware subsidy.
__________________
1 - TiVo Roamio Pro
2 - TiVo Premiere XL

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
innocentfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 04:45 PM   #18
MeInDallas
Registered User
 
MeInDallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
I think there is little *financial* incentive because there is a lot of excitement of the new *features* as an incentive. Way more hype and love for tivo here than when the premiere came out.
I agree, I've never seen people so excited about a launch that I can remember, well at least in a long long time.
MeInDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 05:01 PM   #19
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklinc View Post
Quote:
So you don't condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts, but you think it's perfectly fine to ask it of TiVo?
I didn't ask them to terminate my service contract early. I asked them to transfer it to new equipment and start the clock over, just as I have done many times with cellular telephones, guaranteeing them another six months of contractual service.
True, as long as you are willing to pay the full price (say $700) of the new equipment instead of the upgrade after 2 years price (say $200). TiVo doesn't publish a "full price", one that gives them a sufficient profit to support the rest of the company's activities. But as far as I can tell, you want to get away with paying the subsidized price - the one that corresponds to the "upgrade" price.

TiVo has to be able to make money somewhere. Hardware plus service fees have basically never allowed TiVo to make a profit in its 14 year history (there were 1-2 quarters where if you folded in money for development paid for by outside companies, they eked out a few hundred thousand dollars profit). They have demonstrated they can break-even and survive, but the only quarters in which they've made profits so far have been because of the patent settlements.
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 05:12 PM   #20
WhiskeyTango
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklinc View Post
They could have gotten another six months out of me beyond my original contract if they had allowed the transfer.
Six months of service isn't enough to cover the subsidy on the box. They'd be losing money if they did what you wanted.
WhiskeyTango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 05:13 PM   #21
shortys408
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 11
get them to add lifetime for 199 on your premier, and than sell the box.
shortys408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 05:15 PM   #22
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbiller View Post
TiVo will have a little over $1 billion of cash on-hand when they report earnings next Tuesday due to the $490 million one-time payment associated with the Cisco/Google/Arris/TWC settlement.
Thanks. I didn't know that that money was in TiVo's bank yet. I'm always surprised how long these things take in preparation, but then how quick the final implementation is!
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 05:49 PM   #23
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post
By buy one locally I mean from Best Buy, Amazon, etc. Any retailer other than TiVo since you can buy a box without a plan.
I am guessing you have a $12.95 sub which is why. It doesn't cover the hardware subsidy.
I have a Premier (basic) and am paying TiVo $14.99/mo. for service.
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 06:03 PM   #24
innocentfreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklinc View Post
I have a Premier (basic) and am paying TiVo $14.99/mo. for service.
Still might work then if you pick up a Tivo from Best Buy. You don't even have to open it since the TSN is on the box. Just follow the steps and see if it will let you change the service number.

Their FAQ doesn't mention the $14.99 price so it might or might not work.
__________________
1 - TiVo Roamio Pro
2 - TiVo Premiere XL

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
innocentfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 06:20 PM   #25
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter View Post
True, as long as you are willing to pay the full price (say $700) of the new equipment instead of the upgrade after 2 years price (say $200). TiVo doesn't publish a "full price", one that gives them a sufficient profit to support the rest of the company's activities. But as far as I can tell, you want to get away with paying the subsidized price - the one that corresponds to the "upgrade" price.

TiVo has to be able to make money somewhere. Hardware plus service fees have basically never allowed TiVo to make a profit in its 14 year history (there were 1-2 quarters where if you folded in money for development paid for by outside companies, they eked out a few hundred thousand dollars profit). They have demonstrated they can break-even and survive, but the only quarters in which they've made profits so far have been because of the patent settlements.
I assure you I have never paid $700 for a cell phone! The most I ever paid is $199.They knew that one of their competitors would have paid off my termination fee just to get me (and my family!) into their network.

A local automobile dealer some years ago covered a repair out-of-warranty for me. It was called "good will". I still purchase new cars and have most of my repairs performed at that dealership. It insured customer loyalty.
I will now "ride out" my contractual obligation to TiVo, (cheaper than the termination fee) and then I'll be "gone". If I did purchase the Roamio now, I would have to lease another cable card (first one is free, second one isn't!) in addition to paying another $14.99/mo. to TiVo. I could pull the cable card from the Premier and shove it in the Roamio, saving myself the additional lease on another cable card, and rendering the Premier completely useless while still paying $14.99/mo. I have also learned that if I lease a second cable card, the cable company will charge me another fee for an "additional digital outlet" (their term, not mine!). I really don't want or need two dvr's. The Roamio, with its enhanced capabilities, would have covered our needs for many years to come. Won't happen now!
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 06:32 PM   #26
bklinc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA, TX
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post
Still might work then if you pick up a Tivo from Best Buy. You don't even have to open it since the TSN is on the box. Just follow the steps and see if it will let you change the service number.

Their FAQ doesn't mention the $14.99 price so it might or might not work.
Thanks for the advice. It's worth a try, if and when our local (rural!) Best Buy ever starts selling the Roamio! I will also have to assure that the item can be returned if the box isn't opened. Best Buy has some very strange (consumer unfriendly!) return policies, listed in very large letters on the wall of their store. They tried to hit me with a "restocking fee" when I returned an opened item which wouldn't work with my existing equipment. Sure enough, it was right up there in black & white! (Read the fine print; in this case, not very fine!) I don't know what their return policies are today as I buy very little from them and fortunately haven't returned anything in recent years. If I attempt this, I'll post the results here, but we won't hold our breath for success with this maneuver!
bklinc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 06:51 PM   #27
Dan203
Super Moderator
 
Dan203's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Nevada
Posts: 24,344
This is another reason to always buy lifetime. With lifetime you can almost always recoup all/most of the service cost and there is no contract so you can sell whenever you want.

You should ask them if they'll give you a deal on lifetime for the Premiere if you buy a new Roamio. If they do you can turn around and sell the Premiere for at least $400 and recoup the cost.
__________________
Dan Haddix
Super Moderator
Developer for VideoReDo
Dan203 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 08:22 PM   #28
jfh3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Denver area
Posts: 4,463
This is a common complaint every time TiVo launches a new box.

There is absolutely no reason TiVo should allow anyone to cancel a contract, especially if the hardware subsidy on the box hasn't been recovered yet.

Not sure why the OP thinks TiVo should operate any differently than most other businesses.
__________________
- Roamio; Roamio Pro; Premiere Elite
- Premiere (2TB) (both for sale - PM me)
- TiVo Mini x 3
jfh3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2013, 12:53 AM   #29
aaronwt
HD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 13,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklinc View Post
I assure you I have never paid $700 for a cell phone! The most I ever paid is $199.They knew that one of their competitors would have paid off my termination fee just to get me (and my family!) into their network.

A local automobile dealer some years ago covered a repair out-of-warranty for me. It was called "good will". I still purchase new cars and have most of my repairs performed at that dealership. It insured customer loyalty.
I will now "ride out" my contractual obligation to TiVo, (cheaper than the termination fee) and then I'll be "gone". If I did purchase the Roamio now, I would have to lease another cable card (first one is free, second one isn't!) in addition to paying another $14.99/mo. to TiVo. I could pull the cable card from the Premier and shove it in the Roamio, saving myself the additional lease on another cable card, and rendering the Premier completely useless while still paying $14.99/mo. I have also learned that if I lease a second cable card, the cable company will charge me another fee for an "additional digital outlet" (their term, not mine!). I really don't want or need two dvr's. The Roamio, with its enhanced capabilities, would have covered our needs for many years to come. Won't happen now!
I'll be paying $700 for my next cell phone. If I only pay $200 I'll be forced onto Verizons newer plans. So my monthly price will almost double over what I currently pay for unlimited data.
So even after paying $700 for the cell phone, over two years I will have paid over $1k less than if I got the deal for the $200 cell phone. So in the long run, like lifetime on a TiVo, it's better for me to pay the $700 for the cell phone up front.
__________________
Roamio Pro
TiVo Mini x3
Roamio Basic OTA
39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2013, 02:47 AM   #30
Dan203
Super Moderator
 
Dan203's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Nevada
Posts: 24,344
Do you really use that much data? I barely use a few hundred MB a month on mine, out of 2GB I'm allotted.
__________________
Dan Haddix
Super Moderator
Developer for VideoReDo
Dan203 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoģ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:09 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |