TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Roamio DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 65 votes, 4.92 average.
Old 08-23-2013, 10:25 AM   #301
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post
So you got it 2 days ago?
Just checking that people are reading my posts, I will give you 4 stars and now change the date to the 28th of August, has been shipped from Weaknees $375 and no tax or S&H.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis, Also 1 not used Humax Series 2 with a DVD burner
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 10:28 AM   #302
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYHeel View Post
I'm really curious to see if a 4TB drive will work. Hopefully someone will be brave enough to try it.
Weeknees did and found a problem, they are working on a solution so I will assume 4Tb will not be so easy an upgrade.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis, Also 1 not used Humax Series 2 with a DVD burner
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 10:34 AM   #303
bradleys
It'll be fine....
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,664
I think what I will do is take the 1TB drive out of the Plus and reformat it for my Premier using the original drive that is still sitting on the shelf. I will then take the upgraded 2TB currently in the Premier / reformat it and put it into the Plus.

I think that will be plenty of space!
__________________
TiVo S2 (Retired)
TiVo Series 3 (Sold)
TiVo HD (Sold)
TiVo Premier (2 TB Upgrade)
TiVo Roamio Plus
TiVo Mini
iPad TiVo app
TiVo Stream (Sold)
Personal Video Share powered by PyTiVo
bradleys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 10:53 AM   #304
NYHeel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by lessd View Post
Weeknees did and found a problem, they are working on a solution so I will assume 4Tb will not be so easy an upgrade.
Yeah, I'm the guy that posted that Weaknees told me there's a bug that they're trying to overcome.

I'm not sure I buy everything they say though. If you look at the stuff they told Dave Zatz they claimed that they were going to be selling upgrade kits. But why would you be selling upgrade kits if all you need is a drive and the right screwdriver bit? So I'm not sure I'm believing what they say.
NYHeel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 11:11 AM   #305
lpwcomp
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: John's Creek, Georgia
Posts: 5,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleys View Post
I think what I will do is take the 1TB drive out of the Plus and reformat it for my Premier using the original drive that is still sitting on the shelf. I will then take the upgraded 2TB currently in the Premier / reformat it and put it into the Plus.

I think that will be plenty of space!
I wouldn't do that until someone verifies that this process works on Plus.
__________________
James L. Sutherland
"You know TiVo users. Bunch of b****y little girls" TiVoAxe

"Jessica Fletcher visits Midsomer. Carnage ensues!"
lpwcomp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 11:13 AM   #306
bradleys
It'll be fine....
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,664
I haven't placed my order yet, so I am sure it will be good and tested before I get around to it. But, my confidense level is pretty high at this point.

What I like, is that I can get decent space on the two TiVo's with nothing extra out of pocket - very happy about that.
__________________
TiVo S2 (Retired)
TiVo Series 3 (Sold)
TiVo HD (Sold)
TiVo Premier (2 TB Upgrade)
TiVo Roamio Plus
TiVo Mini
iPad TiVo app
TiVo Stream (Sold)
Personal Video Share powered by PyTiVo
bradleys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 11:38 AM   #307
lpwcomp
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: John's Creek, Georgia
Posts: 5,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleys View Post
I haven't placed my order yet, so I am sure it will be good and tested before I get around to it. But, my confidense level is pretty high at this point.

What I like, is that I can get decent space on the two TiVo's with nothing extra out of pocket - very happy about that.
I have to ask - why do you think you need the extra space if you're willing to sacrifice all of the recordings currently on the 2TB drive?
__________________
James L. Sutherland
"You know TiVo users. Bunch of b****y little girls" TiVoAxe

"Jessica Fletcher visits Midsomer. Carnage ensues!"
lpwcomp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 11:49 AM   #308
bradleys
It'll be fine....
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
I have to ask - why do you think you need the extra space if you're willing to sacrifice all of the recordings currently on the 2TB drive?
I have a server - I can move any content to it that I might still want. I was always filling up the Premier before I did the upgrade, it really didn't bother me - but the kids and wife would go looking for something and bitch at me when it fell off the list.

"Where is that cartoon I watched 6 months ago...."

So, the upgrade really doesn't cause me any pain, the girls may just have to live with going to the server to find something. (or not finding it at all - if I don't feel it is worth the DASD)

That said - I really do wish we had a better interface (updated UI) for browsing external content like a server.
__________________
TiVo S2 (Retired)
TiVo Series 3 (Sold)
TiVo HD (Sold)
TiVo Premier (2 TB Upgrade)
TiVo Roamio Plus
TiVo Mini
iPad TiVo app
TiVo Stream (Sold)
Personal Video Share powered by PyTiVo
bradleys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 11:49 AM   #309
BobCamp1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve614 View Post
My guess is that there is just enough software in the flash memory to get the DVR to the point of being able to access the network and internet where the DVR can then call the TiVo servers and download the complete OS onto the hard drive.
That's an extremely silly way to design something. So many things can go wrong, and flash is so cheap.

I think the OS is in flash memory. The guide data and recordings are on the hard drive. Just like every other DVR on the planet.
BobCamp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 11:51 AM   #310
bradleys
It'll be fine....
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCamp1 View Post
That's an extremely silly way to design something. So many things can go wrong, and flash is so cheap.

I think the OS is in flash memory. The guide data and recordings are on the hard drive. Just like every other DVR on the planet.
I bet you are correct - just another strategy for speeding up the performance.
__________________
TiVo S2 (Retired)
TiVo Series 3 (Sold)
TiVo HD (Sold)
TiVo Premier (2 TB Upgrade)
TiVo Roamio Plus
TiVo Mini
iPad TiVo app
TiVo Stream (Sold)
Personal Video Share powered by PyTiVo
bradleys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 11:58 AM   #311
richbrew
TiVo Fan
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Macon, GA
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
People are interested in seeing the following scenarios;

1. Upgrade drive filled to capacity without issues.
2. Upgrade drive installed after initial boot-up and installation of factory drive.
3. Format/replace drive multiple times (to insure no "replacement limit" factor).

As far as "needing" this info... I don't know that anyone needs it other than curiosity. It would be surprising if any of this became a roadblock, although it is possible.
Personally, I am very interested in #2. Specifically, does it have to do a software update after installing a new drive (an indicator of whether or not the full OS is stored on the board) and does it retain critical information like settings, season passes, wishlists, channel selections, etc. It would make it much easier to decide to upgrade the drive after several months of ownership knowing that a drive upgrade woudnt force you to start over as if it were a brand new unit.
richbrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:07 PM   #312
BobCamp1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by series5orpremier View Post
The ex-semiconductor supply side thermal engineer in me is concerned about putting that 3TB WD eurs drive in the small form factor base Roamio. That might end up causing some early hard drive fails due to thermal issues. I think that's my deciding factor that if I do an upgrade I'm sticking with the 2TB WD eurs.

The Seagate 500 GB is rated at 3.4 W at read-write, 3.0 W idle, and 0.7 W sleeping; so I'm assuming that's a significant percentage of what the enclosure is capable of dissipating from the hard drive while keeping the hard drive within it's temp spec. The 2TB WD eurs' power numbers are 4.5 W/4.0 W/0.7 W read-write/idle/sleeping which doesn't sound too bad being about 1 W (33%) more the Seagate when in use. Hopefully they designed in a little thermal cushion. The 3TB WD eur however is 6.0 W/5.5 W/0.75 W which is about 2.5 W (76%-83%) more than the Seagate. OUCH.

The glitch with Weaknees not putting a 4TB drive in there might very well be they realized with the small form factor cooling design they could burn up the drive. (The 4 TB Seagate is 7.5 W/5.0 W/0.75 W).
I'm not worried about the thermals at all. I'm more worried about what that truly means. It means the power supplies may be working harder than designed. But if Tivo already offers a model that supports 3 TB, I'd be shocked if they didn't use the same power supply in all three models. So you should be fine in upgrading the hard drive.
BobCamp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:21 PM   #313
BobCamp1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by richbrew View Post
Personally, I am very interested in #2. Specifically, does it have to do a software update after installing a new drive (an indicator of whether or not the full OS is stored on the board) and does it retain critical information like settings, season passes, wishlists, channel selections, etc. It would make it much easier to decide to upgrade the drive after several months of ownership knowing that a drive upgrade woudnt force you to start over as if it were a brand new unit.
You forgot "keep recordings", which when combined with using all of the new, larger hard drive, may be the REAL reason to develop a tool. You can expand capacity but lose recordings, you can transfer recordings from a failing hard drive while keeping your existing capacity, but you can't do both at the same time.

The DirecTV DVRs keep everything but the recordings and (most likely) guide data in flash memory. Tivo's DirecTV model, the THR22, already has the OS and all settings stored on the flash. You can upgrade it the same way -- just replace the hard drive with a blank one.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=481815

The Roamios are apparently designed like that, except they've probably ditched the old APM partition scheme so they can support > 2 TiB (which the THR-22s can't).

Last edited by BobCamp1 : 08-23-2013 at 12:28 PM.
BobCamp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:29 PM   #314
richbrew
TiVo Fan
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Macon, GA
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCamp1 View Post
You forgot "keep recordings", which when combined with using all of the new, larger hard drive, may be the REAL reason to develop a tool. You can expand capacity but lose recordings, you can transfer recordings from a failing hard drive, but you can't do both at the same time.

The DirecTV DVRs keep everything but the recordings and guide data in flash memory. Tivo's DirecTV model, the THR22, already has the OS and all settings stored on the flash. You can upgrade it the same way -- just replace the hard drive with a blank one.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=481815
I didn't forget, it's just a non-issue for me. Its not hard to pull recordings to a PC, then push them back to a new drive, and I would find that preferable to unplugging my RAID drives to plug in the TiVo drives.

However, I can add that it would be nice to know if it would work with a non AV drive.
richbrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #315
richbrew
TiVo Fan
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Macon, GA
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCamp1 View Post
I'm not worried about the thermals at all. I'm more worried about what that truly means. It means the power supplies may be working harder than designed. But if Tivo already offers a model that supports 3 TB, I'd be shocked if they didn't use the same power supply in all three models. So you should be fine in upgrading the hard drive.
They didn't, the Basic uses a brick. The Pro and Plus are likely the same, and judging from the design of the outside, maybe the same as the Premier.
richbrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:35 PM   #316
nooneuknow
TiVo User Since 2007
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cox Cable Market, NV
Posts: 2,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
<snip>They actually replaced an out warranty, non-lifetimed Premiere for me that had gotten fried by a lightning strike. Even sent me a prepaid shipping label.

Did they actually want the S3's back or did they just add the TSN to a "cannot reactivate" list?<snip>
From what I recall, they actually required the old boxes sent back. I can see your point in asking, but the cases I recall, required return of the old box.
__________________
Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
nooneuknow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:39 PM   #317
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCamp1 View Post
That's an extremely silly way to design something. So many things can go wrong, and flash is so cheap.

I think the OS is in flash memory. The guide data and recordings are on the hard drive. Just like every other DVR on the planet.
Some years ago (before 2006) I had a Comcast DVR and the guide data was NOT on the hard drive then, it took many hours for the guide data to get loaded after a power interruption, when I got my first Series 3 TiVo it may have taken 9 min. to boot after any power interruption but all the guide data was on the TiVo system after that boot.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis, Also 1 not used Humax Series 2 with a DVD burner
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:43 PM   #318
ppartekim
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Middle of Silicon Valley, next to the mothership
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by richbrew View Post
They didn't, the Basic uses a brick. The Pro and Plus are likely the same, and judging from the design of the outside, maybe the same as the Premier.
I would think on the Basic, one could just upgrade the AC brick to model with the same plug and DC output but a higher amperage to support the harder work needed for the bigger drive.
ppartekim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #319
MeInDallas
Registered User
 
MeInDallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 833
Quote:
Originally Posted by lessd View Post
Some years ago (before 2006) I had a Comcast DVR and the guide data was NOT on the hard drive then, it took many hours for the guide data to get loaded after a power interruption, when I got my first Series 3 TiVo it may have taken 9 min. to boot after any power interruption but all the guide data was on the TiVo system after that boot.
Thats the way the TWC boxes are. After a power loss every channels shows not available and the guide data downloads like over a 24 hour period really slow. I always hated that.
MeInDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:45 PM   #320
ppartekim
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Middle of Silicon Valley, next to the mothership
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeInDallas View Post
Its blowing out from the hard drive across the motherboard to the other side. So the heat is coming off the hard drive as you described and blowing on the motherboard.
Couldn't one just turn the fan around thereby making it flow out across the drive instead?
ppartekim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:47 PM   #321
nooneuknow
TiVo User Since 2007
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cox Cable Market, NV
Posts: 2,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
<snip>The pain in doing the above is that each drive, I assume, would need to be paired to the cc separately. If someone wanted to have an inventory of drives, the old method of copying a newly paired drive would be easier to manage, IMO.
Unless you live in my Cox market. Somehow, they've made it where only the last drive paired works. I've tried drive after drive, in multiple TiVos, reproducing the result. Every time I pair, and all works, I cloned the drive to an identical drive, then installed, to find pairing had to be repeated.

I get jumped every time I state this... But, it seems the cablecard knows the drive S/N has changed, and nulls out the pairing. I don't know exactly HOW it can know, I after 20+ attempts, I feel the results show it is the case.

I didn't have this problem until the second-to-last time the cards received updated firmware.
__________________
Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
nooneuknow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:47 PM   #322
MeInDallas
Registered User
 
MeInDallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 833
Quote:
Originally Posted by ppartekim View Post
Couldn't one just turn the fan around thereby making it flow out across the drive instead?
Maybe, but then will you sacrifice the motherboard not cooling as well?
MeInDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #323
jmpage2
Registered User
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by ppartekim View Post
Couldn't one just turn the fan around thereby making it flow out across the drive instead?
You are assuming that the person who did the device hardware layout did not understand thermal dynamics and that you can improve things by changing the air-flow.

On modern devices that is usually a poor decision to make.
jmpage2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:51 PM   #324
ppartekim
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Middle of Silicon Valley, next to the mothership
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeInDallas View Post
Maybe, but then will you sacrifice the motherboard not cooling as well?
doubtful based on those pics. Lots of open space and the CPU does have a heat sink. Just a thought if the drive produced a lot of extra heat.
ppartekim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:51 PM   #325
Loach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Unless you live in my Cox market. Somehow, they've made it where only the last drive paired works. I've tried drive after drive, in multiple TiVos, reproducing the result. Every time I pair, and all works, I cloned the drive to an identical drive, then installed, to find pairing had to be repeated.

I get jumped every time I state this... But, it seems the cablecard knows the drive S/N has changed, and nulls out the pairing. I don't know exactly HOW it can know, I after 20+ attempts, I feel the results show it is the case.

I didn't have this problem until the second-to-last time the cards received updated firmware.
Interesting. I didn't have to re-pair my Cox Omaha CC after doing my drive upgrade.
__________________
Roamio Pro (MoCA)
Premiere 4 (MoCA) w/2TB WD20EURS upgrade
2 Minis (MoCA/Ethernet)
Loach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:52 PM   #326
nooneuknow
TiVo User Since 2007
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cox Cable Market, NV
Posts: 2,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyw715 View Post
Are these HDDs in the Roamios unformatted out of the box?


As far as pluging the eSATA hole in S3, that was done in order to control the eSATA drive choice. Hard to provide support/warranty to the masses with that big of an unknown.
Nobody (at the time you posted this) knows. I've asked the same thing, and asked that upgraders who don't boot the factory drive do a full DVRBARS backup and send it over to the author of the program to look at.

So far, nobody has even uttered a peep about doing so, or those posts. I'm still catching up on today's posts, so maybe I'll see something later.
__________________
Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
nooneuknow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:54 PM   #327
trip1eX
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 960
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
I have to ask - why do you think you need the extra space if you're willing to sacrifice all of the recordings currently on the 2TB drive?
Good point but the reason is probably no different than someone who hoards tv shows they will never have the time to watch again.

To give you some more choice on that rainy day.

The difference is one guy isn't married to the content and knows he won't watch it all so he can delete it.

The other guy is in denial.
trip1eX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:56 PM   #328
jmpage2
Registered User
 
jmpage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip1eX View Post
Good point but the reason is probably no different than someone who hoards tv shows they will never have the time to watch again.

To give you some more choice on that rainy day.

The difference is one guy isn't married to the content and knows he won't watch it all so he can delete it.

The other guy is in denial.
lol.

Yes, certainly there are hoarders in TiVo land too... thankfully I am not one of them.

I know people who have downloaded terabytes of "free music" from the internet that they have never listened to and probably never will, but they refuse to get rid of it and they keep collecting more.

If I like something enough to "keep it" then I want it in the best quality possible, which means buying the blu-ray set.
jmpage2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:57 PM   #329
nooneuknow
TiVo User Since 2007
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cox Cable Market, NV
Posts: 2,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by cherry ghost View Post
Any chance amseven11 wants to put the original drive back in and go through the setup to see what happens?
He doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything more than posting and reposting what he already did, while waiting for his cable service and cablecard. I even suggested making a paperclip antenna, and setting it to OTA only, to test out it's full-functionality, but no responses on the matter. I think we'll have to wait for somebody who is willing to try what MANY keep asking and/or asking for.
__________________
Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
nooneuknow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:57 PM   #330
lessd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 5,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Unless you live in my Cox market. Somehow, they've made it where only the last drive paired works. I've tried drive after drive, in multiple TiVos, reproducing the result. Every time I pair, and all works, I cloned the drive to an identical drive, then installed, to find pairing had to be repeated.

I get jumped every time I state this... But, it seems the cablecard knows the drive S/N has changed, and nulls out the pairing. I don't know exactly HOW it can know, I after 20+ attempts, I feel the results show it is the case.

I didn't have this problem until the second-to-last time the cards received updated firmware.
If you take a cable card that is paired to a working TiVo, power down the TiVo, remove the cable and place it in another TiVo (or TV cable card slot) turn on the power, don't try to pair the card then power off the unit and put the card back into the original TiVo you will find that the data has changed and the card must be re-paired. This is how the Comcast system works for my area.
__________________
Les Daniels

_____________________________________________
3 Roamio Plus upgraded to 2Tb & 3Tb, and 2 Minis, Also 1 not used Humax Series 2 with a DVD burner
lessd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:26 AM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |