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Old 08-23-2013, 12:26 AM   #241
jmpage2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpwcomp View Post
While the disk packs in the 844-21 were removable, they looked more like hat boxes than flying saucers.



"CDC Model 881 Disk Packs are used with the 844-21
Disk Storage Units. The 881 consists of a stack of eleven,
14-inch diameter, magnetic recording disks. Nineteen
surfaces are used for data recording and one is used for
permanently-recorded positioning information."

During "system time" at FSU (this was in the 70's), we would swap out one of the packs and take the rest of the drives off line to avoid screwing up the production data when testing system mods.

Yeah, well I'm about to start drawing Social Security retirement. Early yes (turned 62 yesterday), but still...

Not quite to the point of checking the obits to see if I'm in there though.
I know you guys are getting a great chortle out of dredging up war stories of 25 year old tech but its really really OT.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:35 AM   #242
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I am one of those who would keep the drive on hand as a backup so I don't consider it an extra drive.
If it truly is just a matter of dropping in an unformatted drive, you wouldn't need it as backup. For restoring it to it's original state for warranty purposes possibly yes, but if TiVo wants to enforce the "letter of the law", it won't do any good as they know if you've ever had an upgraded drive installed.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:35 AM   #243
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The ex-semiconductor supply side thermal engineer in me is concerned about putting that 3TB WD eurs drive in the small form factor base Roamio. That might end up causing some early hard drive fails due to thermal issues. I think that's my deciding factor that if I do an upgrade I'm sticking with the 2TB WD eurs.

The Seagate 500 GB is rated at 3.4 W at read-write, 3.0 W idle, and 0.7 W sleeping; so I'm assuming that's a significant percentage of what the enclosure is capable of dissipating from the hard drive while keeping the hard drive within it's temp spec. The 2TB WD eurs' power numbers are 4.5 W/4.0 W/0.7 W read-write/idle/sleeping which doesn't sound too bad being about 1 W (33%) more the Seagate when in use. Hopefully they designed in a little thermal cushion. The 3TB WD eur however is 6.0 W/5.5 W/0.75 W which is about 2.5 W (76%-83%) more than the Seagate. OUCH.

The glitch with Weaknees not putting a 4TB drive in there might very well be they realized with the small form factor cooling design they could burn up the drive. (The 4 TB Seagate is 7.5 W/5.0 W/0.75 W).

Last edited by series5orpremier : 08-23-2013 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:35 AM   #244
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There is all that to consider. If I ever do buy one of these newfangled "Roamio Plus" thingies, I would prefer to hold off on any upgrade for at least 90 days (assuming I don't also get an extended warranty), which is why I'm hoping that there is some way of upgrading the drive while retaining existing recordings/settings.
That's all good if you only go with the standard warranty of 90 days.

Then, there are those who get 3-4 year extended warranties (I'm not a member of the school of thought that embraces them as a means to increase the resale value of their TiVos).

On occasion though, TiVo will offer you a refurb, sometimes even a model newer, if you are having certain types of problems, a year out of warranty, for a minimal price (like ~$150, w/lifetime service transfer). I'm sure they expect the original drive when you send your problem unit back. I've even heard of people getting offered deals like this on S3 vintage models, and they get a Premiere. Those people couldn't take the offer if they didn't have the original drive...

There's always a potential downside...
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:38 AM   #245
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I know you guys are getting a great chortle out of dredging up war stories of 25 year old tech but its really really OT.
I'm sure if Dan203, the actual moderator. felt it was getting too far off, for too long, he'd say something. I don't answer to non-moderators.

Sure it's a bit OT, but not "really really OT". We -are- talking about hard drive form factors.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:39 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by series5orpremier View Post
The ex-semiconductor supply side thermal engineer in me is concerned about putting that 3TB WD eurs drive in the small form factor base Roamio. That might end up causing some early hard drive fails due to thermal issues. I think that's my deciding factor that if I do an upgrade I'm sticking with the 2TB WD eurs.

The Seagate 500 GB is rated at 3.4 W at read-write, 3.0 W idle, and 0.7 W sleeping; so I'm assuming that's a significant percentage of what the enclosure is capable of dissipating from the hard drive while keeping the hard drive within it's temp spec. The 2TB WD eurs' power numbers are 4.5 W/4.0 W/0.7 W read-write/idle/sleeping which doesn't sound too bad being about 1 W (33%) more the Seagate when in use. Hopefully they designed in a little thermal cushion. The 3TB WD eur however is 6.0 W/5.5 W/0.75 W which is about 2.5 W (76%-83%) more than the Seagate. OUCH.

The glitch with Weaknees not putting a 4TB drive in there might very well be they realized with the small form factor cooling design they could burn up the drive.
Good reason to wait for someone else to try a 3-4TB drive before I jump.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:46 AM   #247
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If its sitting right beside a fan thats exhausting the hot air off the drive on one side, and the other side has cool air coming in thats flowing over the drive to cool it, wouldnt that be enough to cool the drive off?
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:47 AM   #248
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The glitch with Weaknees not putting a 4TB drive in there might very well be they realized with the small form factor cooling design they could burn up the drive. (The 4 TB Seagate is 7.5 W/5.0 W/0.75 W).
Does anybody know the rated output of the "wall-wart" style power supply, or the internal ones in the other two models? That needs to be a factor as well. As far as heat goes, one could always innovate up a heat sink to shunt away some heat to the case cover.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:01 AM   #249
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That's all good if you only go with the standard warranty of 90 days.
Why is why I wrote "(assuming I don't also get an extended warranty)"

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Then, there are those who get 3-4 year extended warranties (I'm not a member of the school of thought that embraces them as a means to increase the resale value of their TiVos).
I've never gotten an extended warranty on a TiVo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
On occasion though, TiVo will offer you a refurb, sometimes even a model newer, if you are having certain types of problems, a year out of warranty, for a minimal price (like ~$150, w/lifetime service transfer). I'm sure they expect the original drive when you send your problem unit back. I've even heard of people getting offered deals like this on S3 vintage models, and they get a Premiere. Those people couldn't take the offer if they didn't have the original drive...
They actually replaced an out warranty, non-lifetimed Premiere for me that had gotten fried by a lightning strike. Even sent me a prepaid shipping label.

Did they actually want the S3's back or did they just add the TSN to a "cannot reactivate" list?

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There's always a potential downside...
Most options such as these have pros and cons and different risk/reward ratios.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:06 AM   #250
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If its sitting right beside a fan thats exhausting the hot air off the drive on one side, and the other side has cool air coming in thats flowing over the drive to cool it, wouldnt that be enough to cool the drive off?
This might be a problem with the base Roamio. Looks like the fan is situated in between the hard drive and the MB. Which way does it exhaust?
If it exhausts toward the MB, running a hot hard drive could overheat the MB.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:10 AM   #251
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Heat dissipation problems are far less likely to be a consideration for a Plus upgrade considering that they have the same form factor as the Pro.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:11 AM   #252
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Its blowing out from the hard drive across the motherboard to the other side. So the heat is coming off the hard drive as you described and blowing on the motherboard.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:12 AM   #253
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I guess someone that upgrades their base model needs to report back on the inside temps.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:26 AM   #254
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I would like someone to try two different drives in the plus to see if the flash OS can handle the new drive SN, if this drive auto format works for more than the first drive than one could have two or more drives for the same plus TiVo, one could just make up an external drive box and fill up one drive than load another drive into the external box.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:07 AM   #255
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This is the drive I used: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_os_product

$95.00 with free 2 day shipping (for Prime members).
Any info on internal temperatures?
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:49 AM   #256
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Where can I check internal temperature?
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:52 AM   #257
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Go to the system information screen where you looked at the hours, it will be there.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:56 AM   #258
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You will have to scroll down like 3 times with the channel down button, and you should see MBT: and a number, if its still the same like a Premiere, but it looks the same from what you posted.
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:36 AM   #259
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Ok cool it won't really do any good until I get cable installed and can record a bunch at once to really get the hard drive working.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:06 AM   #260
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Then why does it take so long to boot up?
must be just like the Mini ..

a big Mini with a Hard Drive.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:15 AM   #261
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must be just like the Mini ..

a big Mini with a Hard Drive.
Does the mini actually have a hard drive in it? If not, then everybody could have probably seen the likliehood of the HD upgrade scenario talked about in this thread.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:35 AM   #262
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That model of drive is out of stock at Newegg. I can't help but wonder if Roamio upgraders are responsible.
Try Amazon. But in all honesty I don't think there is enough of us DIYers for us to affect Tivo policy.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:16 AM   #263
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Does the mini actually have a hard drive in it? If not, then everybody could have probably seen the likliehood of the HD upgrade scenario talked about in this thread.
not that I know of (seems too small to have anything more than a 2.5")... I assume it's an embedded OS. It does take some time to boot up.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:22 AM   #264
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I think Weeknees knew all about this (they must have spies in Alviso), probably from the start, but are keeping mum for now
They are TiVo resellers, no spies needed. I assume TiVo figures they provide a value-add service that's win-win-win for WK, TiVo, and the customers.

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So do you think TiVo could block this for retail customers while still allowing MSOs to utilize the feature?
Right after they finish upgrading the SD Settings... I don't think the hobbyist contingent is large enough to draw that sort of attention and suspect this could even be good for sales. I'm much more interested in an OTA Roamio now that I know I can do away with that meager 500GB drive for a mere $95.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:30 AM   #265
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I have had more trouble with Seagate drives in the past few years than any others. Purely anecdotal I know, but no Seagate drives for me.
My anecdotal evidence matches yours exactly. Many more Seagate failures than Western Digital.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:34 AM   #266
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What Sam B. & Dave Zatz said - too few units would be DIY upgraded to make a difference in overall sales.

Retail resellers like Best Buy would also want the ability to offer drive upgrades.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:37 AM   #267
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Drive anecdotes: Same here, I deal with a few hundred PC's and servers on the job, and over the years I've gravitated toward WD's over Seagate, they just seem more reliable.


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Old 08-23-2013, 07:40 AM   #268
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I've done the opposite. I used to use all WD drives then a few years ago I switched to using Seagate drives(I did buy one WD 3TB drive this year though). Although I've only used several dozen Seagate drives over the past few years compared to the couple hundred WD drives I've used, so far the Seagate Drives have been just as reliable.

I did have one of the five 3TB Seagate drives I purchased recently show up with an issue, but I've had that happen before to WD drives as well. It doesn't happen very often but it is not unusual. As long as the issue shows up at the very beginning I'm fine with it. It's when there is a problem after the drive is put into service that would be bad.

Although it sounds like this upgrade process won't work with a 4TB drive. So if I do go with the Plus and upgrade to a 3TB drive, I will use the WD AV drive instead of the Seagate AV drive. Since it is a little cheaper and has a longer warranty. But if someone does find out it works with a 4TB then I will use a Seagate drive. Although I don't even think WD has a 4TB AV drive?
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:46 AM   #269
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I would like someone to try two different drives in the plus to see if the flash OS can handle the new drive SN, if this drive auto format works for more than the first drive than one could have two or more drives for the same plus TiVo, one could just make up an external drive box and fill up one drive than load another drive into the external box.
If the entire Tivo OS is *not* in flash, wouldn't installing a blank disk require you to go through some form of guided setup again? I suppose some people wouldn't mind doing that to have a collection of disks to swap in and out, but I'm thinking there would be few of those people. And most of those people are probably on this forum!

On a related note, if anyone out there is game, how about unplugging the hard drive completely (to simulate total drive failure) and see how Roamio responds.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:52 AM   #270
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Put me in the camp that believes that TiVo isn't worried at all about us upgrading disk size on the Roamios. They never have been concerned about that, and I don't see any reason for that to change.

As sbiller said, subscription numbers are much more important. I would guess that if 1 out of 5 disk upgraders wouldn't have bought the TiVo if they couldn't upgrade it, TiVo would regard upgrading as a net win for them!

As I said, I don't think disk size upgrades have ever been a worry for TiVo. They have been paranoid about disk security, though. Understandable, in that they are betting the company on there not being an easy way to get copy-protected shows off the TiVo. If they couldn't fix that, they would lose their cablecard license and be out of business.

I view the major reason for the architecture change of getting the OS off the hard disk as being security. It's much more demonstrably secure (to the cable companies) if you don't have to worry about someone plopping in a hacked OS variant via hard disk replacement. They still have to worry about network security, but it removes a major concern that they've had. The fact that it aids maintenance is a nice side benefit.
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