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Old 08-22-2013, 09:43 PM   #181
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Also, to state the obvious.

As was pointed out elsewhere, the developers inadvertently left a kickstart code present on the s3 that allowed one to add any eSATA drive (not just the approved Western Digital ones). TiVo chose to leave that be (as the horse had already left the barn). They did close it later for the TiVoHD.

Given that this aspect will torpedo their sales of the Pro model (which only differs in the size of the internal HD), I'd wager that tivo will push an update to units to close this. Folks would be wise to perform this drive upgrade as the very first action they take with a newly received unit, as after going through the Guided Setup, a unit will take a software upgrade, and that will write the new software to the Flash boot disk. For the Roamio/Series5 units, one you take an upgrade, there's no more "rolling" back the software (as was possible to do with the series4 and earlier hardware).

Note that I'm speculating that tivo much roll out such an update. Speculating.

(though reasonable speculation given how much revenue they may stand to lose).
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:43 PM   #182
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No unfortunately not, Where I am in GA I never got into OTA because I would only get like 2 stations, both local. Charter put a rush on my new drop install so I'm hoping next week everything can get installed.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:45 PM   #183
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Lower probability it's a hoax if someone else previously noted the behavior and asked for confirmation.
Did you think I wouldn't follow the link? It's you, in the post, WONDERING if it may be possible. You, NOT observing it actually happen and looking for another with the same results for confirmation that it FULLY WORKS WITHOUT ANY ISSUES.

Plenty have been asking the same thing: Why doesn't TiVo do it this way?

It's been an idea, wondered about, compared to other devices, by other manufacturers, largely dismissed with "never going to happen".

I don't feel you speculating something that just happens to seem to have materialized, lowering the possibility of it being a hoax, nor at minimum an INCOMPLETE assessment of if it will work. No cable to hook up, didn't try using an antenna, can't even verify it will record on even one tuner, or that the drive won't flake-out when full.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:47 PM   #184
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No unfortunately not, Where I am in GA I never got into OTA because I would only get like 2 stations, both local. Charter put a rush on my new drop install so I'm hoping next week everything can get installed.
Understandable. I'm lucky I can get them all here with a strong signal, I know a lot of people cant though. I have cable but I'd like to have that entry level for the OTA channels, then maybe later get one of the 6 tuner ones.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:52 PM   #185
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Also, to state the obvious.

As was pointed out elsewhere, the developers inadvertently left a kickstart code present on the s3 that allowed one to add any eSATA drive (not just the approved Western Digital ones). TiVo chose to leave that be (as the horse had already left the barn). They did close it later for the TiVoHD.

Given that this aspect will torpedo their sales of the Pro model (which only differs in the size of the internal HD), I'd wager that tivo will push an update to units to close this. Folks would be wise to perform this drive upgrade as the very first action they take with a newly received unit, as after going through the Guided Setup, a unit will take a software upgrade, and that will write the new software to the Flash boot disk. For the Roamio/Series5 units, one you take an upgrade, there's no more "rolling" back the software (as was possible to do with the series4 and earlier hardware).

Note that I'm speculating that tivo much roll out such an update. Speculating.

(though reasonable speculation given how much revenue they may stand to lose).
Of course if the Pro was more reasonable like $499-$549 then it wouldn't even be a question since it would be the same price as someone who updated on their own.

Also people who buy Pluses due to the price difference might wait to upgrade the drive space but they definitely wouldn't sell the Plus just to buy a Pro or at least very few would.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:53 PM   #186
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The first disk drives I worked with looked like this:

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/p...4-21_Feb74.pdf
That's THE ONE I was talking about in an earlier post in this thread, with the huge single platter "disk packs" that came in flying-saucer shaped cases. I was in charge of swapping out one per day, known as the "scratch pack".

Boy, do I feel old!
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:55 PM   #187
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With the $40 off coupon the Pro is $559 and with the Plus the coupon is only $25 making it $544. So for $15 you get the peace of mind that the unit has never been opened and you're guaranteed to get the manufacturer warranty. It also allows you to purchase the TiVo extended warranty without fear of rejection if something goes wrong.
Just tried RoamioTivos coupon and it isn't working. Is there a different one?
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:55 PM   #188
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I don't remember that in the TiVo HD at all.
But, you aren't saying I'm completely wrong, right? Many never even knew about it (it was a TiVo mistake, and you weren't supposed to know).
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:56 PM   #189
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2. Setup is not really related to rebuilding the "data disk" (harddrive), but much of the information populated and configuration done is recorded on the data disk. So removing the drive after setup and putting in a fresh drive returns you to square one. The unit will power up, see the data drive isn't initialized, will initialize it, complete booting, and go into guided setup.
So I'm thinking one could fill a hard drive, pull it out, put a blank one in, lather, rinse, repeat. Swap drives anytime you wanted.

Yeah, it's a PITA to do, but could be done?

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Given that this aspect will torpedo their sales of the Pro model (which only differs in the size of the internal HD), I'd wager that tivo will push an update to units to close this.
I think the number of TiVo buyers is 100's of times bigger than forum readers. I know 4 people personally that have TiVos. Not a one read any of the TCF forum.

Doesn't mean TiVo won't do something, just that the number of people who will know about this is probably in the mid three figures, maybe low four. Versus the tens of thousands they hope to sell.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:56 PM   #190
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Did you think I wouldn't follow the link? It's you, in the post, WONDERING if it may be possible. You, NOT observing it actually happen and looking for another with the same results for confirmation that it FULLY WORKS WITHOUT ANY ISSUES.

Plenty have been asking the same thing: Why doesn't TiVo do it this way?

It's been an idea, wondered about, compared to other devices, by other manufacturers, largely dismissed with "never going to happen".

I don't feel you speculating something that just happens to seem to have materialized, lowering the possibility of it being a hoax, nor at minimum an INCOMPLETE assessment of if it will work. No cable to hook up, didn't try using an antenna, can't even verify it will record on even one tuner, or that the drive won't flake-out when full.
Fair enough.

You probably aren't privy to what I am.

So while I could share that my prior speculation was founded upon a detailed inspection of the new disk initialization process, that probably wouldn't give you any more confidence.

I could further elaborate, giving details of how the software internals between the base, plus, and pro are identical in the aspect of disk initialization. Perhaps even noting that the same pieces of software that build the filesystem on an externally married drive are employed to initialize a new disk. But that wouldn't provide you with the confirmation you're looking for.

We can collectively hang back until the public, empirical evidence is enough for you.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:58 PM   #191
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I highly doubt they will do anything about it. if anything it will increase sales. Remember just because you can add a 2TB drive to the entry level one it still has only 4 tuners instead of 6, so no matter the case there is still incentive to buy the mid level box if you need more tuners.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:00 PM   #192
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Just tried RoamioTivos coupon and it isn't working. Is there a different one?
The coupons are....

ROAMIO
ROAMIOPLUS
ROAMIOPRO

all caps and matched to the model you're buying. The values are $10, $25 and $40 respectively.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:02 PM   #193
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So I'm thinking one could fill a hard drive, pull it out, put a blank one in, lather, rinse, repeat. Swap drives anytime you wanted.

Yeah, it's a PITA to do, but could be done?
Yes, I believe you can do this. However, if you swap in an "older" data drive (and have since taken an upgrade), you'll have to wait for the data drive to be upgraded (though that tends to be much quicker with so much more of the data in SQLite and not MFS). But this should work.

Quote:
I think the number of TiVo buyers is 100's of times bigger than forum readers. I know 4 people personally that have TiVos. Not a one read any of the TCF forum.

Doesn't mean TiVo won't do something, just that the number of people who will know about this is probably in the mid three figures, maybe low four. Versus the tens of thousands they hope to sell.
Fair point. The classic egocentric fallacy. Time will tell.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:02 PM   #194
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The coupons are....

ROAMIO
ROAMIOPLUS
ROAMIOPRO

all caps and matched to the model you're buying. The values are $10, $25 and $40 respectively.
Any idea how long these codes are good?
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:03 PM   #195
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Fair enough.

You probably aren't privy to what I am.

So while I could share that my prior speculation was founded upon a detailed inspection of the new disk initialization process, that probably wouldn't give you any more confidence.

I could further elaborate, giving details of how the software internals between the base, plus, and pro are identical in the aspect of disk initialization. Perhaps even noting that the same pieces of software that build the filesystem on an externally married drive are employed to initialize a new disk. But that wouldn't provide you with the confirmation you're looking for.

We can collectively hang back until the public, empirical evidence is enough for you.
Fair enough. I'm cool with that.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:04 PM   #196
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I highly doubt they will do anything about it. if anything it will increase sales. Remember just because you can add a 2TB drive to the entry level one it still has only 4 tuners instead of 6, so no matter the case there is still incentive to buy the mid level box if you need more tuners.
It was the plus/pro I was thinking of.. Why buy the $600 flagship unit when you can get the $400 one and throw in a 2TB or 3TB drive.

But as astrohip pointed out, the unwashed masses probably wouldn't know any better.

It will be interesting to see how tivo reacts.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:04 PM   #197
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Fair enough.

You probably aren't privy to what I am.

So while I could share that my prior speculation was founded upon a detailed inspection of the new disk initialization process, that probably wouldn't give you any more confidence.

I could further elaborate, giving details of how the software internals between the base, plus, and pro are identical in the aspect of disk initialization. Perhaps even noting that the same pieces of software that build the filesystem on an externally married drive are employed to initialize a new disk. But that wouldn't provide you with the confirmation you're looking for.

We can collectively hang back until the public, empirical evidence is enough for you.
So do you think TiVo could block this for retail customers while still allowing MSOs to utilize the feature?

I am trying to see the advantage of blocking it from TiVo side. Denying warranty claims seems the easier way to go. TiVo doesn't sell drive upgrades so they aren't losing the sale there. I doubt they expected to sell many Pros over the Plus model.

TiVo had to know this would get out there since I think it is the first thing anyone checks.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:06 PM   #198
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There's two lines (or more) of Red drives: NAS & Enterprise are the two I know. I can see where the latter may become an issue. The former has a programmable TLER, which can be tweaked to suit the environment you use it in. It adjusts how long the drive can dwell on an error before moving on.

As far as weaknees... Maybe they booted the TiVo with the stock drive, then analyzed the drive, copied it to a larger one, then expanded it, and it worked, and are now about to find out they did it all for nothing....

Only time, and many more pioneers willing to open their TiVos, will tell.
I think Weeknees knew all about this (they must have spies in Alviso), probably from the start, but are keeping mum for now, and clearly see the 4TB as the upgrade that can stem the loss of some business. They are probably working like crazy to get 4TB to work.

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Old 08-22-2013, 10:07 PM   #199
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With the $40 off coupon the Pro is $559 and with the Plus the coupon is only $25 making it $544. So for $15 you get the peace of mind that the unit has never been opened and you're guaranteed to get the manufacturer warranty. It also allows you to purchase the TiVo extended warranty without fear of rejection if something goes wrong.
There's another option. The 2TB option that puts you into double the plus capacity for about $90.

I also agree that while lots of forum members might go this route, they are a pretty small subset of TiVo customers.

I don't see TiVo doing anything as inane and punitive as logging "warranty violations".

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Old 08-22-2013, 10:14 PM   #200
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The coupons are....

ROAMIO
ROAMIOPLUS
ROAMIOPRO

all caps and matched to the model you're buying. The values are $10, $25 and $40 respectively.
Got it. Actually I ordered the plus standard unit for 375.00 and with a 135 dollar WD30 av gp drive that's 500 dollars for an equivalent 560 dollar Pro unit. A savings of 60 dollars.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:18 PM   #201
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So do you think TiVo could block this for retail customers while still allowing MSOs to utilize the feature?

I am trying to see the advantage of blocking it from TiVo side. Denying warranty claims seems the easier way to go. TiVo doesn't sell drive upgrades so they aren't losing the sale there. I doubt they expected to sell many Pros over the Plus model.

TiVo had to know this would get out there since I think it is the first thing anyone checks.
Unless... It could've been an oversight, coding error, server malfunction, or any number of things that let something meant only for MSOs occur on retail units. TiVo DOES make mistakes, and they aren't immune to system malfunctions. An example is how some people used the new online TSN transfer (when it was first new) to transfer lifetime service between units, when that wasn't supposed to be possible. It happened. I missed that small window of opportunity by a few hours...

Let's not forget the legal might of TiVo. They do reserve the right to change their TOS/policies/rules AT ANY TIME, and will give you 30 days notice.

They can always grandfather those that took advantage of it, and allow them to keep their upgraded unit in operation, or give them a choice of putting the original drive back in and in return, not voiding their warranty.

Have you read the new TOS and policies, which we have less than 30 days to opt-out of? There are LOTS of mentions in BOLD PRINT about them leveraging punitive penalties against users, up to, and including TERMINATION OF TIVO SERVICE, as well as punitive financial penalties.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:18 PM   #202
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So do you think TiVo could block this for retail customers while still allowing MSOs to utilize the feature?
Easily.

Quote:
I am trying to see the advantage of blocking it from TiVo side. Denying warranty claims seems the easier way to go. TiVo doesn't sell drive upgrades so they aren't losing the sale there. I doubt they expected to sell many Pros over the Plus model.

TiVo had to know this would get out there since I think it is the first thing anyone checks.
This clearly crosses into the speculative realm, but my belief is that management will be disheartened enough at the thought of losing sales of the Pro unit to a request a fix from development. It would take a clear, calm management head to not have a knee jerk reaction to this news, but even if management did request a fix, development might respond that these images are built months in advance, so even a requested fix would be too long after launch to make a difference. Then it gets closed in a future release still under active development.

It's hard not to believe that tivo knew this would happen, though often times there can be a gulf between development (where everyone on the development team has known for months that moving the Series5 units over to a Flash based boot drive would mean that anyone can drop in a new, bigger drive and increase the recording space) and marketing (who agonized over the pricing structure for the Roamio rollout based on numerous hours of number crunching, surveys, and focus groups) had no clue that this was possible.

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Old 08-22-2013, 10:23 PM   #203
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I subscribe to the "meeting the demands" of the MSO's theory. Cheaper just to have ONE box to manufacture and one software. The majority of TiVo owners aren't DYI people. How about the theory that if this simple slap in a new HDD and away we go is true, is that it will STIMULATE sales of the Roamio line with power users/DYI folks, likely MULTIPLE Roamio purchases over time. TiVo has always known they can't get DYI folks to buy the higher end models because DYI folks are interested in higher capacity, not THX Certification. So, why not embrace the DYI and meet the MSO's requests. Completely cheap skate the Roamio and put a small, slightly inferior to the WE EURS in IMHO, save tons of costs and let the DYI folks bear the cost of more capacity. Sounds like good business to me.

I suppose TiVo is sorry they didn't pay for--I mean get--THX Certification for the Pro, as that had always been the "difference" with the flagship model. Now, TiVo can't even say that! One would think TiVo would have crowed about some difference, other than stock drive size, between the Plus and Pro, but, so far, nothing.

Meanwhile, the rest of the market will be sold on the more expensive units or multiple base Roamios just as always. It really makes no difference to TiVo, only to TiVo owners who may have an EASY way to increase capacity and who would've have done so any way with the old methods, and to DVRDudes and Weaknees who will have something of a disturbance to their business model.

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Old 08-22-2013, 10:27 PM   #204
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I still think if they hadn't priced the Pro so high this wouldn't have even been a question in people's mind. If anything they sort of put themselves in this position.

At $599 I went from a day one purchase to waiting to see if we might get an upgrade offer. At $499 or even $549 people would opt to buy over upgrade and the only upgraders would be for the ones who opted for the Plus and upgraded down the road when 3TB AV drives dropped in price.

I do agree it will be really interesting to see how TiVo responds. I think with this out there it might hurt them to be too aggressive especially when it has been such a well received launch except for the pricing.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:28 PM   #205
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I think Weeknees knew all about this (they must have spies in Alviso), probably from the start, but are keeping mum for now, and clearly see the 4TB as the upgrade that can stem the loss of some business. They are probably working like crazy to get 4TB to work.
If Weaknees knew about this and this is the method they are upgrading with, then I guess a 4TB drive would not work? If I get a 3TB drive I will just go with the WD AV drive instead of the Seagate since it's cheaper.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:31 PM   #206
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If Weaknees knew about this and this is the method they are upgrading with, then I guess a 4TB drive would not work? If I get a 3TB drive I will just go with the WD AV drive instead of the Seagate since it's cheaper.
They might have to do some additional hacking like manually expanding one of the partitions. Of course this makes you wonder if Roamio would just try to reformat the drive.

I wonder what happens if you put a drive from another Roamio in? Does it just work or does it detect a non-matching TSN and rebuild? or something else entirely? Works for future recordings, but won't play original recordings?
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:31 PM   #207
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Easily.

This clearly crosses into the speculative realm, but my belief is that management will be disheartened enough at the thought of losing sales of the Pro unit to a request a fix from development. It would take a clear, calm management head to not have a knee jerk reaction to this news, but development might response that these images are built months in advance, so even a requested fix would be too long after launch to make a difference.

It's hard not to believe that tivo knew this would happen, though often times there can be a gulf between development (where everyone on the development team has known for months that moving the Series5 units over to a Flash based boot drive would mean that anyone can drop in a new, bigger drive and increase the recording space) and marketing (who agonized over the pricing structure for the Roamio rollout based on numerous hours of number crunching, surveys, and focus groups) had no clue that it was possible.
Very well put. It may be speculative, but I share your speculation, and will raise you one invitation to read the new TOS/User Agreements, and invite further speculation of such a "very feasible" nature.

If this was born out of giving the MSOs what they wanted, and a retail accident, one could say TiVo may worry about retail sales. Reasonable, but I think TiVo cares more about MSO contracts and less and less about retail.

It's not unreasonable to think that TiVo may eventually abandon retail, if they can get enough MSO contracts. Then they can shut down their so-called "support center", save money there, and cash in on the MSO deals.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:35 PM   #208
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I think Weeknees knew all about this (they must have spies in Alviso), probably from the start, but are keeping mum for now, and clearly see the 4TB as the upgrade that can stem the loss of some business. They are probably working like crazy to get 4TB to work.
I'd almost bet on a 4TB workaround being their golden ticket with the Roamio line. If they know anybody that can swap a drive can get to 3TB, they should be working hard at coming up with a way to do something that the everyday Joe DIYer can't.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:36 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Very well put. It may be speculative, but I share your speculation, and will raise you one invitation to read the new TOS/User Agreements, and invite further speculation of such a "very feasible" nature.

If this was born out of giving the MSOs what they wanted, and a retail accident, one could say TiVo may worry about retail sales. Reasonable, but I think TiVo cares more about MSO contracts and less and less about retail.

It's not unreasonable to think that TiVo may eventually abandon retail, if they can get enough MSO contracts. Then they can shut down their so-called "support center", save money there, and cash in on the MSO deals.
I think the number of potential Pro sales TiVo might lose to consumers purchasing a larger hard drive and the correct tools to open up their Roamio box is extremely small. This is probably a don't care for TiVo and the convenience associated with MSO maintenance and life cycle support makes it a very worthwhile feature.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:39 PM   #210
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Also, TiVo doesn't focus on hardware revenue/sales. They are really interested in long term subscriber growth while controlling subscription acquisition costs (SAC). The impact of Roamio, Mini, and Stream is a reduction in churn and the possibility that TiVo might once again start to add Retail subscribers to the books which has been on a slow and steady decline for quite some time.
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