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Old 08-12-2013, 05:47 PM   #721
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This whole "copy" / "copy once" flag is intriguing to me as its something I have discussed many times and is currently stopping me from upgrading my TivoHD to a 4 tuner Tivo. Basically 90% of my shows are copyrighted, many of which I have either not watched yet or don't want to lose. And since I can't transfer them to a new one that i buy, I have basically not spent the money on a new one. If they can do what has been described in some of the previous post in this thread, I would upgrade - no doubt. I have compared it to buying apps on your cell phone. You spent a lot of money and time building up your library of apps and if you would not be allowed to transfer them to a new one, you probably would not upgrade too often. But luckily that industry has no problem with you transferring to newly purchased phones or tablets.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:57 PM   #722
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If they ever add that feature It's unlikely to make it's way back to the S3 units. The S3 units are unlikely to ever see another update with actual features. (there is a minor update rolling out now to fix the TTG cookie issue)
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:22 PM   #723
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Morac is right. "Copy once" means that the original recording is the "copy" and it already can't be copied again. The loophole is that it's not being copied it's being moved. So you're not technically creating another copy, you're simply moving the copy you already have. This is sort of a gray area so while it can technically be done now, CableLabs could choose to clarify the rules and shut this feature down.

Streaming outside the home is another gray area that we may see accepted or shut down, we'll have to wait and see how they respond if the feature is implemented.
I don't think it is gray at all. The first recording is the first copy, if there is no restriction on streaming, then you can stream. These aren't loop holes or gray areas, it's like any other legal issue and up to a little interpretation, but most of it is a result of negotiations. If the content holders don't like what is being done with their content, they'll make it be known and follow up legally, if required.

The FCC's part is simply stepping in when a law, that they are in the position to enforce, is in question. They give each side the opportunity to submit comments and then they release an order. The Plug And Play order was the order where restrictions were placed on how these flags can be used, see page 30.

http://w2.eff.org/IP/pnp/FCC_PnP_Ruling.pdf
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:32 PM   #724
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By "gray area" I meant there is no clear cut rule defining these specific usage scenarios. Streaming seems to have been accepted by the industry, but moving recordings to another device is still something new, so it's not clear yet how they're going to react to that one.
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:41 PM   #725
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Yes, streaming rights are in a gray area. Basically TiVo pushes the limits, TiVoToGo wasn't exactly popular with the content co's when it came out either. I meant the copying rules weren't gray. I've always been a proponent of updating the definitions to reflect the current ecosystems and other DRM systems. So if I record a copy of a show with my TiVo, it should have the same flexibility as if I were to download it from iTunes or Google Play.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:26 PM   #726
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I think that's what TiVo is trying to accomplish. At least as best they can while conforming to the current rules. If they add a "move" feature then I think they will have done everything possible within the current rules. If they want a true iTunes type DRM scheme then the rule would need to be changed, and I just don't see that happening.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:23 PM   #727
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"Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.
Though I'm obviously a huge TiVo fan, I'd be wary of being one of the early adopters of this.

I've definitely been bitten by my Toshiba XS32 corrupting a DVD-RAM *while* it moved over a copy once program. So along with losing everything already on the DVD-RAM, I lost the program I was copying, because it didn't do a verification before the delete of the original...

and with the weird bugs I run into with the existing Tivo iPad app (jumps back to the beginning/last save point of the show you're watching when a download finishes), I'm paranoid that losing the WiFi connection at *just* the right point would cause you to lose the program entirely...
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:35 AM   #728
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We've drifted a long way from discussing the actual next-gen product. Nonetheless... a cloud solution is a no-go for many of us. It's one thing to access Netflix, it's another to actually have your DVR data in the cloud. Not only does this dramatically add to your bandwidth usage, you lose the instantaneous response of a local DVR. I have -zero- interest in cloud storage for my day-to-day DVR usage.
Not to mention that Comcast is expanding their trial of the new 300GB data cap, so that alone would mean Tivo cloud is not an option for me if that cap gets reinstated.

This is a much bigger issue of course, but Tivo would have to take it into account when the caps come back (and they will).
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:16 AM   #729
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Not to mention that Comcast is expanding their trial of the new 300GB data cap, so that alone would mean Tivo cloud is not an option for me if that cap gets reinstated.

This is a much bigger issue of course, but Tivo would have to take it into account when the caps come back (and they will).
A data cap is another reason why if they do have cloud storage they need to allow the user to be able to select which recordings/SPs will be stored in the cloud and which ones they will locally.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:29 AM   #730
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For in home use I would want local storage.

The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.

In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:30 AM   #731
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For in home use I would want local storage.

The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.

In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.
IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:31 AM   #732
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Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?

Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:32 AM   #733
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Hah, lessd and I had the same thought at the same time, it would seem. :-)
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:33 AM   #734
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Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.
thats illegal. you cant record anything once and redistribute multiple times to multiple people.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:39 AM   #735
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thats illegal. you cant record anything once and redistribute multiple times to multiple people.
Wrong. CableVision won this battle in court. Google "CableVision DVR".

Here: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ont-hear-case/
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:40 AM   #736
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IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.
If it were allowed that would be fine for cable channels but I find it unlikely that anyone but a cable/satellite company is going to have access to all the local channels in the country and your local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS etc. channel will fight to death any effort to record from a national feed for prime time shows.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:43 AM   #737
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Wrong. CableVision won this battle in court. Google "CableVision DVR".
no, you're wrong. you said tivo should record "once" and stream it anywhere. Cablevision doesnt do that. CV records only one copy to the user that requested it. if you and i want to record Friends at 7 pm today, CV records it twice. They dont record it one time and send it to both of us, thats is illegal. Thats how they won the court battle because they are not redistributing, they are simply recording for the user that requested it, go back and read it.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:43 AM   #738
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Cloud distribution would remove local ads.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:48 AM   #739
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Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?

Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.
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Wrong. CableVision won this battle in court. Google "CableVision DVR".

Here: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ont-hear-case/
Did you actually read the article? Not even remotely the same.

Edit: I see I was beaten to the punch.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:48 AM   #740
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no, your wrong. you said tivo should record "once" and stream it anywhere. Cablevision doesnt do that. CV records only one copy to the user that requested it. if you and i want to record Friends at 7 pm today, CV records it twice. They dont record it one time and send it to both of us, thats is illegal. Thats how they won the court battle because they are not redistributing, they are simply recording for the user that requested it, go back and read it.
Yes, I understand the difference now. However, I don't think it's a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that CableVision could (if they aren't already) argue that they have algorithms which very carefully remove duplicate bits of data across their farm of hard drives. Why bother keeping the identical bits multiple times? Then, of course, it's just a matter of a database to keep track of who told them to record it. They could prove that they aren't infringing if there happens to be one program which no one requested, and, in fact, it wasn't available on their system.

Anyway, this point is moot. All I was saying was that TiVo's "cloud" storage might not involve *any* of your "upstream" bandwidth. They can just add it to the cloud on your behalf when you set up your recording.

By the way...How is Dish getting away with this then? (nevermind, I see that "PrimeTime Anytime" actually gets stored on your own local hard drive. I thought it was "in the cloud." )

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Old 08-13-2013, 11:58 AM   #741
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Yes, I understand the difference now. However, I don't think it's a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that CableVision could (if they aren't already) argue that they have algorithms which very carefully remove duplicate bits of data across their farm of hard drives. Why bother keeping the identical bits multiple times? Then, of course, it's just a matter of a database to keep track of who told them to record it. They could prove that they aren't infringing if there happens to be one program which no one requested, and, in fact, it wasn't available on their system.
If you read the whole case, you will see that the court went through their algorithms and technology to see if it infringed on redistribution rights. the court said, since CV doesn't duplicate or "manage" the recordings and only perform 1 to 1 copies of the requested program and have multiple copies of said program, they are not redistributing. they are simply moving the box under your tv to their colo.

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Anyway, this point is moot. All I was saying was that TiVo's "cloud" storage might not involve *any* of your "upstream" bandwidth. They can just add it to the cloud on your behalf when you set up your recording.
then they would copy exactly what CV is doing and that would mean that their new hardware wouldnt need any physical tuners in the box. A tunerless Tivo.

if this cloud rumor is true, then they would go the Boxee TV route. record and upload your recordings.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:59 AM   #742
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IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.
More like VOD. I realize that most Tivo users aren't aware of this, but if you use the cable provider's box, you can get a stream of your favorite shows and movies anytime you want!

Now, some cable providers don't have a large VOD selection, so not every program is there for viewing. Sports events certainly aren't (but sometimes they're on ESPN3). And some people have a slow Internet connection so they can't take advantage of it. But it's amazing how many of my shows are on VOD (at least with FIOS, anyway). And you can FF through the commercials on most of them, and some have even edited out most of the commercials.

I don't bother to record certain series anymore, as I know they'll be available on VOD within 48 hours of the original air date and I know I won't get around to watching them until then anyway. I've found my family only needs around 300 GB of hard drive space on the DVR.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:05 PM   #743
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For in home use I would want local storage.

The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.

In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.
I like this idea... Today the iPad app allows you to move a copy to the iPad. Another option to move the stream into the cloud would be pretty cool. You could access it from your mobile device or laptop using the "New" TiVo desktop.

If I can use my own personal cloud, all the better - but I doubt it will be allowed.
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:33 PM   #744
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More like VOD. I realize that most Tivo users aren't aware of this, but if you use the cable provider's box, you can get a stream of your favorite shows and movies anytime you want!

Now, some cable providers don't have a large VOD selection, so not every program is there for viewing. Sports events certainly aren't (but sometimes they're on ESPN3). And some people have a slow Internet connection so they can't take advantage of it. But it's amazing how many of my shows are on VOD (at least with FIOS, anyway). And you can FF through the commercials on most of them, and some have even edited out most of the commercials.

I don't bother to record certain series anymore, as I know they'll be available on VOD within 48 hours of the original air date and I know I won't get around to watching them until then anyway. I've found my family only needs around 300 GB of hard drive space on the DVR.
Bt many of the VOD shows have borked audio. At least with FiOS and Comcast. Stereo audio instead of 5.1
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:05 PM   #745
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More like VOD. I realize that most Tivo users aren't aware of this, but if you use the cable provider's box, you can get a stream of your favorite shows and movies anytime you want!

Now, some cable providers don't have a large VOD selection, so not every program is there for viewing. Sports events certainly aren't (but sometimes they're on ESPN3). And some people have a slow Internet connection so they can't take advantage of it. But it's amazing how many of my shows are on VOD (at least with FIOS, anyway). And you can FF through the commercials on most of them, and some have even edited out most of the commercials.

I don't bother to record certain series anymore, as I know they'll be available on VOD within 48 hours of the original air date and I know I won't get around to watching them until then anyway. I've found my family only needs around 300 GB of hard drive space on the DVR.
I have VOD on my TiVo Comcast system, when you ask for a program the cable card goes to a channel to get the program you want, if you have a two tuner TiVo and are recording on both tuners you can't get VOD without stopping the record on one station, On HBO type VOD programs you can fast forward if needed but I can't fast forward on any Fox or ABC network program so I would be forces to watch the ads, when the Zimmerman verdict came down it was before end of some ABC program I had recorded, I had to start the VOD for that program and do something else for 50 minutes until the part I missed came on, I was pi*** about that inconvenience of VOD. Same thing happened on the Obama announcement of Osama bin laden death at 10:45pm, I could have waited until 11pm to know about his death.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:12 PM   #746
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Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?
The feature that was presented to me was personal media. Don't think we're talking network DVR here...
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:37 PM   #747
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The feature that was presented to me was personal media. Don't think we're talking network DVR here...
Was there any mention of additional codec support though?
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:32 PM   #748
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I have VOD on my TiVo Comcast system, when you ask for a program the cable card goes to a channel to get the program you want.
The CableCARD has nothing to do with VOD tuning. The request for a VOD program is routed from the TiVo to Comcast's head-end over the TiVo's Internet connection, and in reply the TiVo is told which channel to tune to receive the requested program.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:06 PM   #749
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I hope they improve the on demand menus for comcast. I have trouble navigating it.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:19 PM   #750
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Why bother keeping the identical bits multiple times?
Because, them's [sic] the rules. The data is being segregated per user, so those recordings are for that one user.

If you only keep one copy, then you are CLEARLY (legally) making duplicate copies, breaking copyright laws.
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