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Old 08-11-2013, 07:06 AM   #691
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I just did a TiVo survey where they asked about some Stream related features. There were questions about various potential features, most relating to platforms and out of home streaming. However one I found interesting was it asked if I'd be interesting in being able to transfer protected shows to my iPad if it meant the show would be deleted fome the source TiVo after the transfer completed. So essentially they would be "moving" rather then "copying" to get around the copy once restriction. That would be a pretty cool feature.

The other cool one mentioned the possibility of a website where you could access your shows rather then having to use a specific app. That would be pretty cool too and should open up streaming to more devices.
Both those features sound awesome! It appears that a lot of items are converging that could allow TiVo to leapfrog some of the competition. It will be interesting to see if they are able to execute this transition without a raft of bugs. I'm also curious whether or not they'll mess with the service costs or keep the status quo. I'm also noticing and hearing from sources that TiVo's back-end servers / data center(s) have been having some issues with scalability as they rapidly add cable-partner customers and continue to add retail customers at a rate of about 8,000 per month (my estimate). I expect that the gross subscriber adds we will see in q3 and q4 could be double that number.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:10 AM   #692
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My guess is that any cloud based feature would involve fees. While the idea sounds great, I doubt I would pay for it.
My guess is the cloud based feature would also involve preventing you from skipping commercials and probably have control latency so awful that it would make the HDUI look snappy by comparison.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:23 AM   #693
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The other cool one mentioned the possibility of a website where you could access your shows rather then having to use a specific app. That would be pretty cool too and should open up streaming to more devices.
I already get pretty close to my ISP data limit of 250GB/month (with help of Netflix & Amazon downloads), so any significant addition would put me over the top consistently. I've never actually received a warning for going over even though it's happened a few times, but ISP data limits eventually are going to be a problem forcing one to pay more, especially as transition to IPTV materializes. Also if TiVo solution means uploading your own recorded shows to cloud (transcoded) I wouldn't like that at all.
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:16 AM   #694
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I just did a TiVo survey where they asked about some Stream related features. There were questions about various potential features, most relating to platforms and out of home streaming. However one I found interesting was it asked if I'd be interesting in being able to transfer protected shows to my iPad if it meant the show would be deleted fome the source TiVo after the transfer completed. So essentially they would be "moving" rather then "copying" to get around the copy once restriction. That would be a pretty cool feature.

The other cool one mentioned the possibility of a website where you could access your shows rather then having to use a specific app. That would be pretty cool too and should open up streaming to more devices.
Moving content would only make sense if you can play it back on the big screen through AirPlay or something similar that lets you stream from the mobile device to the big screen.

But for HBO content, it's moot because HBO Go for iPad supports AirPlay. Showtime Anytime app. does not though.

Which shows are protected other than those from premium channels? Does FX or AMC protect their shows?
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:29 AM   #695
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Which shows are protected other than those from premium channels? Does FX or AMC protect their shows?
Tme Warner copy protects EVERYTHING except local broadcast channels which effectively cripples features like this.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:29 AM   #696
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Which shows are protected other than those from premium channels? Does FX or AMC protect their shows?
Depends on yur cable prvider. Some cable providers protect everything except the local channels.

I agree that there would need to be some way to move it back to your TiVo or play it on your TV if a move feature was offered.
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:57 AM   #697
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Depends on yur cable prvider. Some cable providers protect everything except the local channels.

I agree that there would need to be some way to move it back to your TiVo or play it on your TV if a move feature was offered.
Could they circumvent the flags if they delete the video on the source DVR?
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:55 PM   #698
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Tme Warner copy protects EVERYTHING except local broadcast channels which effectively cripples features like this.
everything I've read about TW makes them seem like they are terrible. I feel sorry for anyone who has no other option.
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:27 PM   #699
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everything I've read about TW makes them seem like they are terrible. I feel sorry for anyone who has no other option.
When it comes to SDV and copy flags, yeah... but their mobile and Roku (!) apps are notable.
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:40 PM   #700
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Amazon has a sale on current models apparently.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._email_1p_0_ti

Clearing inventory ahead of the launch of the new products?
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:46 PM   #701
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Could they circumvent the flags if they delete the video on the source DVR?
"Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:07 PM   #702
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"Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.
I hope TiVo chooses to exploit that provision.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:14 PM   #703
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"Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.
If I recall correctly it also means once moved to another device the CCI byte should then be changed to "Copy Never" so it can't be moved again.
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:48 PM   #704
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If I recall correctly it also means once moved to another device the CCI byte should then be changed to "Copy Never" so it can't be moved again.
That's my understanding of it as well. Once means once, not just that it can't exist on more than one device at a time. I could be wrong. It does happen...
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:23 PM   #705
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If I recall correctly it also means once moved to another device the CCI byte should then be changed to "Copy Never" so it can't be moved again.
I'm pretty sure that's not correct as any program tagged "copy never" can only be stored for 90 minutes before being deleted. Also by moving the program, it's not being copied, which is what gets around the whole "copy once" restriction in the first place. Remember the first "copy" in "copy once" is the recording, which is why no other copies are allowed.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:05 AM   #706
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Morac is right. "Copy once" means that the original recording is the "copy" and it already can't be copied again. The loophole is that it's not being copied it's being moved. So you're not technically creating another copy, you're simply moving the copy you already have. This is sort of a gray area so while it can technically be done now, CableLabs could choose to clarify the rules and shut this feature down.

Streaming outside the home is another gray area that we may see accepted or shut down, we'll have to wait and see how they respond if the feature is implemented.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:39 AM   #707
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Amazon has a sale on current models apparently.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._email_1p_0_ti

Clearing inventory ahead of the launch of the new products?
Best Buy is even cheaper at $248.99 for an XL4.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:39 AM   #708
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I used wrong state name. "copy once" is promoted to "copy no more" (CCI=0x01) I believe. I used to have a link to the original 5C copy protection document but no longer.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:50 AM   #709
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Best Buy is even cheaper at $248.99 for an XL4.
Where are you seeing that price. an in-store clearance?

Best Buy appears to be out of stock online.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Premiere...der/3438692.p?
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:41 AM   #710
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Morac is right. "Copy once" means that the original recording is the "copy" and it already can't be copied again. The loophole is that it's not being copied it's being moved. So you're not technically creating another copy, you're simply moving the copy you already have. This is sort of a gray area so while it can technically be done now, CableLabs could choose to clarify the rules and shut this feature down.

Streaming outside the home is another gray area that we may see accepted or shut down, we'll have to wait and see how they respond if the feature is implemented.
Agreed. It *might be* better for this to be clarified by CableLabs, the FCC, or whoever it is that needs to make it more ironclad, and less subject to interpretation.

While that may shut down some things that are working right now, if it's working due to loose wording, and not what was intended, it *might be* better to clear it up now, and find ways to make it work as intended, or work within a new, clearer/cleaner wording (IMHO).

I also foggily recall something about the recording being the "one copy", being said some time ago, now that it was brought up that way, again.

Last edited by nooneuknow : 08-12-2013 at 03:28 AM. Reason: changed wording to make sure this is interpreted as my *opinion*
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:13 AM   #711
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I used wrong state name. "copy once" is promoted to "copy no more" (CCI=0x01) I believe. I used to have a link to the original 5C copy protection document but no longer.
I'm pretty sure that already happens when TiVo makes the original recording. The trick here is that it's not being copied, it's being moved. It's been a while since I read it, but I'm pretty sure there is nothing in the spec that specificly prevents a "copy no more" recording to be moved to another device. As lo as it's not accessible from both devices simultaniously.

If TiVo wanted to completely protect themselves then they could do a bit by bit delete of the original as it was being transfered to the new device. That way they could truly say it was being moved and not copied. But really this all boils down to what cable labs lets them get away with.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:36 AM   #712
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Good question. They could support a consumers own Cloud storage but I'm guessing this might be hosted in TiVo's data center(s). Perhaps they'll provide a certain amount of storage and offer additional storage for a fee.

That would at least help justify the high monthly fees we pay.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:27 PM   #713
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Where are you seeing that price. an in-store clearance?

Best Buy appears to be out of stock online.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Premiere...der/3438692.p?
When I logged on it showed in store clearance and online shipped.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #714
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At this rate I might need to put up one of my Elites for sale this month. I should be able to temporarily cover some of teh broadcast network recordings from my OTA only Premiere. Or maybe it will just be better to wait until the S5 is released?
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:17 PM   #715
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Where are you seeing that price. an in-store clearance?

Best Buy appears to be out of stock online.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Premiere...der/3438692.p?
You can shop their in store clearance.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/TiVo%26%...62&strClr=true

If you repleace the strId= with your local store numbers you can see if they have any instock.

Both Brandon and Citrus have them in stock in Tampa.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:26 PM   #716
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At this rate I might need to put up one of my Elites for sale this month. I should be able to temporarily cover some of teh broadcast network recordings from my OTA only Premiere. Or maybe it will just be better to wait until the S5 is released?
Hard to know where the price of used Premieres is going to go. Depends on how much the Series 5 units end up costing and how fast TiVo clears out old inventory. Once the Premiere inventory is cleared out the used market will be based on the Series 5 costs so maybe it is good they are clearing out know.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:32 PM   #717
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If TiVo wanted to completely protect themselves then they could do a bit by bit delete of the original as it was being transfered to the new device. That way they could truly say it was being moved and not copied. But really this all boils down to what cable labs lets them get away with.
As programmers we think like that, but "Accessible" is very easy for TiVo to just drape an access layer over. Then it's immediately inaccessible, they do the proper "move" pattern (crc, copy, check crc on dest, delete local) and if any of that fails just show an error and make it visible again.

Safer.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:23 PM   #718
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We've drifted a long way from discussing the actual next-gen product. Nonetheless... a cloud solution is a no-go for many of us. It's one thing to access Netflix, it's another to actually have your DVR data in the cloud. Not only does this dramatically add to your bandwidth usage, you lose the instantaneous response of a local DVR. I have -zero- interest in cloud storage for my day-to-day DVR usage.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:34 PM   #719
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We've drifted a long way from discussing the actual next-gen product. Nonetheless... a cloud solution is a no-go for many of us. It's one thing to access Netflix, it's another to actually have your DVR data in the cloud. Not only does this dramatically add to your bandwidth usage, you lose the instantaneous response of a local DVR. I have -zero- interest in cloud storage for my day-to-day DVR usage.
I would't mind having that option so that you could choose which recordings or SPs would use cloud storage. So for someone with no bandwidth caps I could see that as a possible option to keeps costs down. Then you get a TiVo with a smaller hard drive for a lower cost and store some of your recordings in the cloud. Of course it would also depend on what they want to charge for cloud storage and if there is some kind of limit on how long the recordings can be stored.

It can certainly be done since BoxeeTV had cloud storage in their beta. But they also converted the recrodings to a lower quality and also lowered the audio quality to stereo. But it did work.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:39 PM   #720
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At this rate I might need to put up one of my Elites for sale this month. I should be able to temporarily cover some of teh broadcast network recordings from my OTA only Premiere. Or maybe it will just be better to wait until the S5 is released?
I wouldn't sell anything just yet. We don't have an official release date yet and TiVo has a history of missing deadlines. What if it slips to next year then you're stuck without a TiVo for 3-4 months or forced to rebuy the one you just sold.
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