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Old 08-08-2013, 06:36 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by BigJimOutlaw View Post
I guess the data about the size was backwards. The "arching" box is the larger of the two, at 14.3". While the 6-tuner boxes are about 11.5" wide and 1.5" tall.
One diagram indicates the width of the box. The other diagram indicates the dimensions of the back plate or label.

Interesting that the arched model has one AV breakout - wonder if it's for composite, component, or both. I'm guessing composite only and that only the higher-end units will feature component.

(For reference, my Premiere looks to be 16.5" wide and sits about 2.5" high.)

Update: Looking at the design notes, AV was "composite" until about April - so that suggests only 6-tuner is component.

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Old 08-08-2013, 07:55 AM   #572
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One diagram indicates the width of the box. The other diagram indicates the dimensions of the back plate or label.

Interesting that the arched model has one AV breakout - wonder if it's for composite, component, or both. I'm guessing composite only and that only the higher-end units will feature component.

(For reference, my Premiere looks to be 16.5" wide and sits about 2.5" high.)
Ah, I see now. The diagram even indicates vinyl with PSA backing. Derp derp Jim.

You're probably right about the A/V socket.

The report and labeling doesn't explicitly mention MoCA on the SFF box. I know they're making this box as inexpensively as possible, but that would slightly suck since one would think they'd make that a standard, at least as a "client" like the Mini if not with full-blown ethernet bridging. It's already on the chip... Hope they have it.

The other report stating MoCA is only on the Pro and not the Plus doesn't compute with the moca alliance certificate. Sure as hell hope they're wrong on that. LOL.

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Old 08-08-2013, 09:15 AM   #573
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The report and labeling doesn't explicitly mention MoCA on the SFF box. I know they're making this box as cheap as possible, but that would slightly suck since one would think they'd make that a standard, at least as a "client" like the Mini if not with full-blown ethernet bridging. It's already on the chip.

The other report stating MoCA is only on the Pro model and not the Plus conflicts with the moca alliance certificate. That doesn't compute. Sure as hell hope they're wrong on that. LOL.
I'm surprised the 4-tuner box doesn't have the MoCA label on the coax port since I think TiVo's MSO partners would demand it for their WH installations.

Also agree that the MoCA Alliance certificate is assigned to the Plus unit and the FCC report indicates the hardware is identical. The only thing I can think of is the Plus unit is using a pin-for-pin identical Broadcom chip that doesn't include the transcoding and/or MoCA support.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:16 AM   #574
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Just supplementing sbiller's figures:

From the annual report,
"At February 28, 2013, we employed approximately 576 full time employees, including 50 in service operations, 354 in research and development, 51 in sales and marketing, and 121 in general and administration."

So that means they probably have around 100 consultants/contractors in their R&D side in addition to the full-time folks above.

Note that TiVo has always regarded itself as a software engineering house. They have never wanted to be in the hardware business, and still don't. But the unexpectedly poor reception of DVR's upon introduction forced them into the business, since there wasn't enough money for the big hardware folks like Sony, Phillips and Toshiba to remain interested.

I would guess just the audience measurement side of TiVo has more software engineers than the 5 postulated here for all of TiVo.

If they truly have dozens of software engineers, they are literally the worst engineers ever hired by any company and the hiring manager should be fired, hired again, then fired again just to be sure.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:22 AM   #575
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I'm surprised the 4-tuner box doesn't have the MoCA label on the coax port since I think TiVo's MSO partners would demand it for their WH installations.
Eh, MSO partners wouldn't require a box that also does OTA. Perhaps they'll keep some Premiere variants around or rely on other Pace hardware. Hm.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:32 AM   #576
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I'm surprised the 4-tuner box doesn't have the MoCA label on the coax port since I think TiVo's MSO partners would demand it for their WH installations.

Also agree that the MoCA Alliance certificate is assigned to the Plus unit and the FCC report indicates the hardware is identical. The only thing I can think of is the Plus unit is using a pin-for-pin identical Broadcom chip that doesn't include the transcoding and/or MoCA support.
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Eh, MSO partners wouldn't require a box that also does OTA. Perhaps they'll keep some Premiere variants around or rely on other Pace hardware. Hm.
My question would be is there enough savings between a 4 tuner box and 6 tuner box to justify a cable company messing with it?

On the other hand if the 4 tuner box was designed to be a stand alone only box (not the Hub of a whole home system) like the current 2 tuner Premiere maybe MoCA wouldn't be that much of a benefit.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:42 AM   #577
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My question would be is there enough savings between a 4 tuner box and 6 tuner box to justify a cable company messing with it?

On the other hand if the 4 tuner box was designed to be a stand alone only box (not the Hub of a whole home system) like the current 2 tuner Premiere maybe MoCA wouldn't be that much of a benefit.
Good points... that appears to be the strategy. The 6-Tuner gateway boxes (Pro/Plus) and the base 4-Tuner stand-alone box. If the Plus price point is low enough it makes even more sense.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:46 AM   #578
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Good points... that appears to be the strategy. The 6-Tuner gateway boxes (Pro/Plus) and the base 4-Tuner stand-alone box. If the Plus price point is low enough it makes even more sense.
That seems really dumb. While I'd love to have the 6 tuner box, 4 tuners is enough for almost everyone. It seems nuts to force people to buy the 6 tuner box for whole home.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:58 AM   #579
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We have found that, for whatever reason, folks with Tivos still watch live TV a significant amount of the time. So, a 6-tuner box makes sense for whole home so that the minis can provide this.
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:13 AM   #580
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I never watch live TV but during NBA season I need at least 5 tuners just for myself during primetime, so a 6 tuner unit is very welcome and I'll be 1st in line to get one (also expecting HDUI and flash apps to run MUCH faster than the current horrible experience of the Elite).
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:19 AM   #581
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I never watch live TV but during NBA season I need at least 5 tuners just for myself during primetime, so a 6 tuner unit is very welcome and I'll be 1st in line to get one (also expecting HDUI and flash apps to run MUCH faster than the current horrible experience of the Elite).
I wouldn't describe the experience of the Elite as horrible... the word I like to use is sluggish...
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:51 AM   #582
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I wouldn't describe the experience of the Elite as horrible... the word I like to use is sluggish...
Horrible
horrific, shocking, appalling, horrifying, terrifying, frightening, harrowing, bloodcurdling, hair-raising, terrible, black, horrendous, dreadful, frightful, repulsive, revolting, abominable, grim, hideous, gruesome, monstrous, ghastly, awful, grisly, grisy

Or

Sluggish
lethargic, listless, torpid, heavy, dull, slow, slow-moving, slothful, languid, lazy, idle, inactive, apathetic, lifeless, unresponsive, phlegmatic

I don't know~
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Old 08-08-2013, 11:54 AM   #583
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We have found that, for whatever reason, folks with Tivos still watch live TV a significant amount of the time. So, a 6-tuner box makes sense for whole home so that the minis can provide this.
We watch a lot of live TV and more VOD, On Demand, and Netflix than DVR-ed shows these days. And we also only have two "real" TVs at this time. I'll probably stick with my Premiere Elite. If Netflix and Amazon come to the Mini, I'll move the Elite to the basement as a headless hub and pick up a second Mini for the living room.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:16 PM   #584
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I'd say general usage is sluggish. Apps are borderline horrible. There's easily a 50% chance Netflix will make my system go unresponsive to my remote during a 42 minute program. Odds go up for a full length movie. I can't be bothered with it.

I gave up waiting and instead velcro'ed a Roku 3 to the back of my TV. It is very fast, Netflix and Amazon load in 5 seconds, and the apps haven't crashed yet. I'd love to not have to switch video inputs or handle a second remote, but the experience and extensive app options override that completely.

The S5 will help, but I'm still doubtful Tivo cares to thrive as an app platform on the whole. And even if it did, by the time that happens, they'll probably be selling Roku 5's with voip apps or whatever else.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:49 PM   #585
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So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.

Gee, Thanks Tivo for supporting OTA users. Not really sure this is any sort of an upgrade at all.

Call me VERY disappointed in this news. Its a Premiere with a slightly faster interface and less features. Its not even significantly smaller.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:56 PM   #586
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So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.
I don't see why it wouldn't support the Mini. But the other stuff, yeah.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:59 PM   #587
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I'd say general usage is sluggish. Apps are borderline horrible. There's easily a 50% chance Netflix will make my system go unresponsive to my remote during a 42 minute program. Odds go up for a full length movie. I can't be bothered with it.

The S5 will help, but I'm still doubtful Tivo cares to thrive as an app platform on the whole. And even if it did, by the time that happens, they'll probably be selling Roku 5's with voip apps or whatever else.
I would say that depends on the app. I agree that the Netflix app is the single biggest problem. Its unfortunate that TiVo needs to rely on Netflix to fix the problem since they wrote the app. I would say the new MLB.TV app is an example of an app that works pretty well. I also think that Google has pushed some YouTube updates to the app. My recent experience with the YouTube app is pretty positive. Lastly, I think the Hulu Plus app is pretty usable as well. With all that said, the launch time of the apps is a problem and the overall OTT experience is much better on my Roku or ATV.

I believe that it is essential for TiVo to create a thriving app environment going forward. The processing power of the Roamio and Mini will help but they need to significantly improve the apps. If Dave's rumors about DIAL support are true that will be a first step in the right direction.

I'm also encouraged that TiVo is looking at Flash alternatives that offer higher performance apps --> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...26#post9760826

For a comparison between Adobe Air and NME see this link --> http://www.openfl.org/developer/foru...-vs-adobe-air/
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:01 PM   #588
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I don't see why it wouldn't support the Mini. But the other stuff, yeah.
I agree. I'm pretty certain it will support the Mini. It may not have embedded MoCA.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:05 PM   #589
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So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.

Gee, Thanks Tivo for supporting OTA users. Not really sure this is any sort of an upgrade at all.

Call me VERY disappointed in this news. Its a Premiere with a slightly faster interface and less features. Its not even significantly smaller.

I just don't think there is much of a market for an OTA DVR and what market there is won't pay the price necessary for TiVo to offer a high end OTA DVR. I don't mind using a basic OTA DVR and another box or two to cover my other needs. I will be happy if my TiVoHDs work for another five years, I won't buy an OTA DVR. No other company is trying to make anything for the market either, so there must not be a market worth competing for.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #590
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So its beginning to look like the only Series 5 unit that will support OTA broadcast will still not support Mini's, will require external MOCA and will loose component video outputs. It also will not have stream capabilities.
What have you seen that makes you think the base S5 will not support Mini in OTA mode? The Mini is designed to work with any 4+ tuner TiVo and the base Roamio (hate the name) definately meets that criteria.

Stream integration? You are correct, but you can purchase the Stream as an add-on box. Some used boxes should go on sale after the S5 hits the market.

Am I a buyer? That is an interesting question... I have never had that big of an issue with the performance of my Premier and I don't use a lot of OTA apps and if I did a $99 Roku is a better investment.

The big push for me would be the Hub and Spoke implementation. I have six tuners accross three TiVo's. It would be nice to consolidate those tuners into one box (effectively bringing the cooperative tuner allocation I have wanted) and use a few Mini's.

So - I won't be a fast adopter, but I will probably upgrade.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:57 PM   #591
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Dave just sent out a tweet about possible pricing.

$199 and $399 with a September 30th release date.

I know in the past we discussed $199 for the 4 tuner as a sensible goal for TiVo.

$399 is hopefully the 3TB model, but I would guess it is the base 6 tuner with the Pro going for $499 like the Elite launched.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:01 PM   #592
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Dave just sent out a tweet about possible pricing. $199 and $399 with a September 30th release date.
These may both be placeholders in the system... although I'm more confident about the pricing, less confident about the date - which may be earlier. (Edit: And of course we're still missing one price. Wonder how long the Premiere will carry on - a few months?)
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #593
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These may both be placeholders in the system... although I'm more confident about the pricing, less confident about the date - which may be earlier.
The date makes sense if they want to debut it at CEDIA the week before. The Elite launched around the same time.

Am I correct in my assumption on the pricing? Just saw your edit. I guess they could always offer the 6 tuner base for $199 and the Pro for $399 so maybe there are only two price points for three models.

It will be interesting to see what if any offers they have at launch for upgrades and Mini bundles.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:14 PM   #594
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We have found that, for whatever reason, folks with Tivos still watch live TV a significant amount of the time. So, a 6-tuner box makes sense for whole home so that the minis can provide this.

Exactly. The extra two tuners in theory would be providing the streams to the Mini's the majority of the time.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:16 PM   #595
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These may both be placeholders in the system... although I'm more confident about the pricing, less confident about the date - which may be earlier. (Edit: And of course we're still missing one price. Wonder how long the Premiere will carry on - a few months?)
Placeholders in the system would more fall along the lines of the prices that one sees new Apple products show up in the Best Buy system. The $199 and $399 sound legit.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:24 PM   #596
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I wonder of $199 to $399 is the range? That would be interesting...

More likely:

P5 - 4 Tuner @ $199
P5 - 6 Tuner Plus @ $399
P5 - 6 Tuner Pro @ $499
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:28 PM   #597
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Hopefully the DTA issue will be deployed by then so we actually "have" a 6-tuner box.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:38 PM   #598
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I can't imagine why the 4 tuner would not have MoCa. It's built right into the chipset. There would be no cost savings to turning it off. Maybe it's not listed on the label because that port can be used for either cable or OTA and MoCa will only work with the former?
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:39 PM   #599
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Hopefully the DTA issue will be deployed by then so we actually "have" a 6-tuner box.
I'm betting it is. This is something their MSO partners want as well, so I'm sure they're getting pressure for it on all sides.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:05 PM   #600
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$199 for the 4-tuner would be pleasantly surprising (I was expecting 300-400-500 price points).

Hopefully the jump from $200 to $400 doesn't just get the you the Plus model. $200-300-400 would sound good.

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