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Old 08-06-2013, 05:02 PM   #541
series5orpremier
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No Android support, no sale here don't care whether it's Stream or on the box - both of our tablets are Android. Yet another reason why Tivo routinely gets lampooned in the tech press for releasing half-assed stuff.
If they don't give me the specs that I want instead of the cut-rate specs they tell me to take I'm not buying. Of course they could have avoided this mess by including OTA capability on the PRO which they're charging a premium for anyway, but that would have made too much sense.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:09 PM   #542
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If they don't give me the specs that I want instead of the cut-rate specs they tell me to take I'm not buying. Of course they could have avoided this mess by including OTA capability on the PRO which they're charging a premium for anyway, but that would have made too much sense.
That may not be possible. There might not be an ATSC tuner in existence that can do 6 streams. Up until very recently there wasn't even one that could do 4.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:20 PM   #543
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They maybe could have at least done separate configurations like on the baseline model - you get your choice of 4 OTA tuners or 6 digital cable; or 4 OTA/2 digital cable vs. 6 digital cable. Either that or do a "PRO" version of the baseline 4 tuner model. I would think tech savvy premium users would appreciate the option of viewing broadcast nets in pure OTA HD as opposed to compressed HD that many cable companies provide.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:28 PM   #544
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I don't think there is a big enough market of OTA only users to justify those options. They likely did the 4 tuner unit in the cable or OTA because it was easy and cheap to accomplish. A premium OTA only unit would probably not be a big seller, and creating some sort of hybrid unit with 6/4 cable/OTA would just be confusing.

As it is now the best you can do for OTA is 2 tuners, so 4 tuners is an improvement. You can also upgrade the drive on a 4 tuner unit via eSATA and add a standalone Stream to gain all the same features as the 6 tuner box. So it's not like there is really anything exclusive except integration.
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:26 PM   #545
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Specs Shmecs.

I just hope they don't drop the ball on this with incomplete functionality like the Mini and Stream.

If the Series 4 is the "800 pound gorilla of home entertainment", let's all hope that the Series 5 is not the "1000 pound Bigfoot of TiVo fans disappointment".
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:28 PM   #546
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I just hope they don't drop the ball on this with incomplete functionality like the Mini and Stream.
That's pretty much a given. Since it will run basically the same software as those devices I don't expect there to be much improvement to functionality.

Although in my case if it can just run the HDUI and apps as fast as the Mini I'm buying. Even if for all other intents and purposes it's identical to the Elite I have now.
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:50 PM   #547
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That's pretty much a given. Since it will run basically the same software as those devices I don't expect there to be much improvement to functionality.
It does make me wonder what TiVo's software budget is like. Their rate of output does an excellent simulation of a lone programmer working in a basement.
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:03 PM   #548
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I worked with their software development team like 6-8 years ago and it was relatively small. Given all the projects they have going at a given time it wouldn't surprise me if there were only 1-2 guys actually tasked to working on the HDUI.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:05 PM   #549
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I worked with their software development team like 6-8 years ago and it was relatively small. Given all the projects they have going at a given time it wouldn't surprise me if there were only 1-2 guys actually tasked to working on the HDUI.
TiVo had 461 regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research & development as of January 31, 2013 (down from 526 the year before). I would guess that approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development. I expect we will see a further reduction in headcount this year since their R&D expenses are slowly decreasing.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:56 PM   #550
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"approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development" does not mean that they have 230 software engineers, after all someone must be doing QA, and other staff tied up in supporting these engineers. Still a decent number of eggheads.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:36 PM   #551
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The fact that it took them this long to address the 2.2TiB limit is pretty embarrassing. Hopefully they moved away entirely from the 32-bit TiVo kernel and OS and moved to something more modern. Theoretically the Flash UI can run atop any CPU architecture, that was one of its major selling points.
I wouldn't call that exactly "embarrassing". Obviously they have to change the entire filesystem from underneath. Again, that makes all of our hacking tools WORTHLESS. (IIRC, even the current 2 TB limit is just by increasing the block size, so you're "wasting" space with small files, but obviously files are going to usually be in the hundreds of megabytes size nowadays.)
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:34 PM   #552
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I wouldn't call that exactly "embarrassing". Obviously they have to change the entire filesystem from underneath. Again, that makes all of our hacking tools WORTHLESS. (IIRC, even the current 2 TB limit is just by increasing the block size, so you're "wasting" space with small files, but obviously files are going to usually be in the hundreds of megabytes size nowadays.)
Considering that fact that, with weaKnees help, you can have a total of 4TB (2 2TB drives, 1 internal & 1 external) on a Premiere, I doubt very seriously if a filesystem rewrite is required. If the h/w supports it, all that should be necessary is a Linux kernel upgrade. Does no one remember the 137GB limit?
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:48 AM   #553
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TiVo had 461 regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research & development as of January 31, 2013 (down from 526 the year before). I would guess that approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development. I expect we will see a further reduction in headcount this year since their R&D expenses are slowly decreasing.
TiVo has a lot of projects that could be encompassed under R&D. Several of which are contracted out to 3rd party development houses who probably count all their employees, so I don't think that really gives us much of an idea as to how many people are on the team that works on the HDUI. Honestly if it's more then a few people then they are doing a terrible job and managing their time.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:51 PM   #554
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TiVo had 461 regular, temporary, and part-time employees engaged in research & development as of January 31, 2013 (down from 526 the year before). I would guess that approximately 50% of those employees are involved with software development. I expect we will see a further reduction in headcount this year since their R&D expenses are slowly decreasing.
No.

There is no possible way they have even 15 developers writing software for the TiVo.

Look man, I work with some big companies... and I am a developer... I do not think you understand these industries.

I mean, I can tell you about a company that makes welders, smart welders at that, and they have literally one person writing new firmware. One. This is a company worth over 10B dollars.

TiVo might have 5 guys writing new code, 3 of whom are working on new features and 2 of whom are working on bugs and updates. Then they might have 2 QA guys.

I'm capping it there. If they had more than that, we'd see faster feature roll-outs.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:14 PM   #555
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I'm actually surprised Tivo has that many employees, I thought it was probably around the 100 mark.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:38 PM   #556
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http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/07/t...pop-up-in-fcc/

TiVo Series 5 'Roamio Pro' and 'Roamio Plus' DVRs pop up in FCC filings

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Old 08-07-2013, 07:51 PM   #557
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"Roamio" as in you can view your recordings while roaming around?

So place-shifting capabilities of some kind? Or is it some web streaming stuff?
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:06 PM   #558
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"Roamio" as in you can view your recordings while roaming around?

So place-shifting capabilities of some kind? Or is it some web streaming stuff?
Since they have embedded WiFi perhaps they can easily roam anywhere in the house?
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:09 PM   #559
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I guess the data about the size was backwards. The "arching" box is the larger of the two, at 14.3". While the 6-tuner boxes are about 11.5" wide and 1.5" tall.

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Old 08-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #560
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I wonder if the Mini will be rechristened as Juliet?
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:22 PM   #561
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Since they are outed in the FCC filing, how long before they are formally announced?

Doesn't Apple usually not have the FCC filings released until Apple is ready?
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:42 PM   #562
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I guess the data about the size was backwards. The "arching" box is the larger of the two, at 14.3". While the 6-tuner boxes are about 11.5" wide and 1.5" tall.

The arching box has a "cable/ant" label, while the smaller boxes say cable/moca.
1.5 seems really short especially considering drives are about 26mm or 1 inch.

It doesn't leave much space for airflow over the surface of the drive.

The Premiere is 2.4" per the TiVo page.

It does make sense if you think about it though as far as the size being the other away around. The 4 tuner probably needs more space for the OTA parts.
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:43 PM   #563
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TiVo doesn't typically announce these things. They usually just lift the media embargo and put out a simple press release about a week before they start selling.
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:45 PM   #564
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So I think Richard didn't quite interpret the FCC filings correctly... there are really three boxes... here is the comment I posted on engadget.

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Looking a bit closer at the FCC exhibits I think we are actually talking about three boxes. The Model TCD846500 with FCC ID TGN-TCD8465 is the curve shaped box and it is the basic 4-tuner OTA/Cable Roamio box with no extra designation. It also appears that it won't have MoCA.

The other two boxes are in the more traditional form factor - Roamio Plus (TCD848000) and Roamio Pro (TCD840300) with FCC ID TGN-TCD8400. It appears that the Roamio Pro is the only box that has the embedded Stream (transcoder) functionality based on the filing which is a bit surprising since we think the box is using the Broadcom chip that has a transcoder built-in. You would think there would need to be a different FCC test if the boxes used a different processor.

I'm still confused a bit about the lack of MoCA referenced in the FCC test report for the Roamio Plus since it would render the back-panel wrong for the Roamio Plus. The MoCA certification appears to be on the Roamio Plus box as well.

The bottom-line as called-out in the earlier Dave Zatz post is there are three boxes, Roamio, Roamio Plus, and Roamio Pro.

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Old 08-07-2013, 09:34 PM   #565
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I'm actually surprised Tivo has that many employees, I thought it was probably around the 100 mark.
Just supplementing sbiller's figures:

From the annual report,
"At February 28, 2013, we employed approximately 576 full time employees, including 50 in service operations, 354 in research and development, 51 in sales and marketing, and 121 in general and administration."

So that means they probably have around 100 consultants/contractors in their R&D side in addition to the full-time folks above.

Note that TiVo has always regarded itself as a software engineering house. They have never wanted to be in the hardware business, and still don't. But the unexpectedly poor reception of DVR's upon introduction forced them into the business, since there wasn't enough money for the big hardware folks like Sony, Phillips and Toshiba to remain interested.

I would guess just the audience measurement side of TiVo has more software engineers than the 5 postulated here for all of TiVo.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:39 PM   #566
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Considering that fact that, with weaKnees help, you can have a total of 4TB (2 2TB drives, 1 internal & 1 external) on a Premiere, I doubt very seriously if a filesystem rewrite is required. If the h/w supports it, all that should be necessary is a Linux kernel upgrade. Does no one remember the 137GB limit?
The hardware does NOT support it. That's the point.

An 8 bit number can't hold a number greater than 255. That is a very simplified analogy of the problem. The existing limit is the MAXIMUM size that the filesystem supports.. So it would need a new or tweaked (changed) filesystem to support bigger sizes.. or somehow be able to add more partitions (though I suspect the partition limit is involved in the same kinds of limitations I describe.. maybe there's only 4 bits for # of partitions?)

The Weaknees is "just" 2 drives at the maximum married.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:39 PM   #567
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The Weaknees is "just" 2 drives at the maximum married.
Which means that the filesystem can support 4TB. Logically, the drives are treated as one volume.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:54 AM   #568
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The limit is 2.2TB (Or 2TiB) per drive, so the maximum that the current Premiere DVRs can address is 4.4TB (Or 4TiB). The external storage solution that is used bypasses the kernel limitations but still maxes out at 2.2TB (2TB).
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:22 AM   #569
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The limit is 2.2TB (Or 2TiB) per drive, so the maximum that the current Premiere DVRs can address is 4.4TB (Or 4TiB). The external storage solution that is used bypasses the kernel limitations but still maxes out at 2.2TB (2TB).
And that is my point. It s a Linux kernel limitation, not a filesystem limitation. There is also a possible disk controller issue in the current h/w. I seriously doubt that the TiVo MFS maximum volume size is smaller than that of ext2, which is 32TB.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:13 AM   #570
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According to the mfstools source, the MFS volume header (aka superheader) uses an unsigned 64-bit field to hold the total number of sectors. I use the same structure definitions in DvrBARS.

Even if you assume that it's actually a signed number and that a sector will always mean 512 bytes, that's almost 4 zettabytes. I don't think the current MFS filesystem poses any practical limitations.
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