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Old 08-06-2013, 10:49 AM   #511
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Focusing on the hardware of the Series5 units, here's what we know.

The Tivo Mini (part of the Series5 family based on CPU) uses a Broadcom 7418 chip.
The Series5 6-tuner box (based on the Pace XG1 development) uses a Broadcom 7425 chip. With the Pace XG1 simply being a "headless" variant of the retail.
The Series5 4-tuner box uses as Broadcom 7429.

The difference between the 7429 and 7425 is the lack of transcoding needed for streaming (http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/product_brochure.pdf), so the hardware matches the current feature speculation.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:06 AM   #512
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TiVo has now posted subscriber increases for seven straight quarters, following a four-year streak of declining subscriber numbers. In the latest period, TiVo added a net 255,000 subscribers, compared with the 206,000 subscribers it gained a year earlier.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...20-710657.html
The numbers I'd like to see are:

1. Total subscribers compared to all-time high number of subscribers.

2. Total subscribers compared to all the DVRs out there. You can break it down by cable or cable and satellite combined.

3. Percentage of total DVRs in use.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:27 AM   #513
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The numbers I'd like to see are:

3. Percentage of total DVRs in use.
I tried to get total number of DVRs from Dan at StreamingMedia last week but the MSOs only report total number of STBs to them. Not sure if other orgs have that info. For this exercise I'd want to see it limited to the US and retail, versus MSO-provided TiVo. Also total DVR count will have less value as more providers move to the whole-home hub/spoke client/extender model.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:29 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by AllYourBase View Post
Focusing on the hardware of the Series5 units, here's what we know.

The Tivo Mini (part of the Series5 family based on CPU) uses a Broadcom 7418 chip.
The Series5 6-tuner box (based on the Pace XG1 development) uses a Broadcom 7425 chip. With the Pace XG1 simply being a "headless" variant of the retail.
The Series5 4-tuner box uses as Broadcom 7429.

The difference between the 7429 and 7425 is the lack of transcoding needed for streaming (http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/product_brochure.pdf), so the hardware matches the current feature speculation.
So that means the new 4 tuner box won't even have Stream capability built in? Ugh. I suppose that means I don't have to wait anymore for Tivo to release Stream compatibility for Android. Still if accurate, that is disappointing.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:42 AM   #515
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I tried to get total number of DVRs from Dan at StreamingMedia last week but the MSOs only report total number of STBs to them. Not sure if other orgs have that info. For this exercise I'd want to see it limited to the US and retail, versus MSO-provided TiVo. Also total DVR count will have less value as more providers move to the whole-home hub/spoke client/extender model.
I think it would be useful to see the historical context. Tivo (along with Replay TV IIRC) invented the DVR or popularized it.

But is a bit player now, given that most people get their DVRs from cable or satellite companies. I wouldn't say DVRs drive one's decision on which provider to sign up with but I think they are a factor.

And in other countries, Tivo probably has no presence because the pricing model is completely different. There are no service fees as I understand it. You can buy a DVR at a store in Japan and hook it up, pay no extra fees.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:45 AM   #516
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And in other countries, Tivo probably has no presence because the pricing model is completely different. There are no service fees as I understand it. You can buy a DVR at a store in Japan and hook it up, pay no extra fees.
1.7 million Virgin TiVos in the UK... largest, single installed base I believe. And the bulk of where TiVo's software development seems to have been focused the last two years.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:00 PM   #517
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I think the big deal is the WL screen and I suspect that we might see that one updated.
I can confirm WishLists are going HD...


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Old 08-06-2013, 12:27 PM   #518
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I tried to get total number of DVRs from Dan at StreamingMedia last week but the MSOs only report total number of STBs to them. Not sure if other orgs have that info. For this exercise I'd want to see it limited to the US and retail, versus MSO-provided TiVo. Also total DVR count will have less value as more providers move to the whole-home hub/spoke client/extender model.
Back of the napkin math/analysis....

There are 114.8 million households (HHs) in the US. DVR penetration is around 45% meaning there are approximately 52 million DVRs. TiVo's 1 million DVRs represents a little less than 2% of the DVRs in the US.

I also agree that WH solutions throw-off the calculations a bit. Keep in mind that TiVo counts any box generating recurring revenue as a subscriber so every TiVo Mini fielded to retail adds to TiVo's count and throws off the calculation.

There are other ways to derive a similar number based on cable TV households and/or MVPD households since the NCTA published total numbers for the top MSOs and we can look to the National Cable Television Cooperative (NCTC) for additional statistics.

FWIW, if we combine the 2% retail number with the 700,000 (and growing) boxes deployed to TiVo's MSO partners, TiVo's market share in the US is around 3.3% and growing.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #519
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So that means the new 4 tuner box won't even have Stream capability built in? Ugh. I suppose that means I don't have to wait anymore for Tivo to release Stream compatibility for Android. Still if accurate, that is disappointing.
True, but you can still purchase the TiVo Stream. They are just trying to differentiate the models both in pricing and options (and cost to produce).

Charging a premium for a device that is THX certified and putting a larger hard drive in the unit (with no other hardware differences) was a little lame in my opinion.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #520
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1.7 million Virgin TiVos in the UK... largest, single installed base I believe. And the bulk of where TiVo's software development seems to have been focused the last two years.
TiVo spent 3+ years unifying the Series 4 code-base so the code being executed by Virgin Media, Spain's ONO, Sweden's Com Hem, TiVo Retail boxes, and TiVo's MSO boxes shares a high percentage of commonality.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:39 PM   #521
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True, but you can still purchase the TiVo Stream. They are just trying to differentiate the models both in pricing and options (and cost to produce).
I'm not sure I want to buy a stand alone Stream based on what I've read in the forums. Plus another box to plug in.

At least I have an option.
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:41 PM   #522
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TiVo spent 3+ years unifying the Series 4 code-base so the code being executed by Virgin Media, Spain's ONO, Sweden's Com Hem, TiVo Retail boxes, and TiVo's MSO boxes shares a high percentage of commonality.
Right, but Virgin had the HDUI guide, season passes, etc months ahead of US retail customers. And they have apps like Twitter and Facebook that we've never seen...
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:04 PM   #523
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I'm not sure I want to buy a stand alone Stream based on what I've read in the forums. Plus another box to plug in.

At least I have an option.
At least with the Stream you can plug it in anywhere as long as it is on the same network as the TiVo.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:16 PM   #524
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At least with the Stream you can plug it in anywhere as long as it is on the same network as the TiVo.
Compared to Stream support integrated on the chip, I'm not sure I see the advantage here.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:28 PM   #525
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I'm not sure I want to buy a stand alone Stream based on what I've read in the forums. Plus another box to plug in.

At least I have an option.
No Android support, no sale here don't care whether it's Stream or on the box - both of our tablets are Android. Yet another reason why Tivo routinely gets lampooned in the tech press for releasing half-assed stuff.

(And yes we know, it's not their fault Android was late to the game with DRM etc. etc. etc. I really don't care what the excuses are at this point, it's way overdue just like pretty much everything else Tivo.)
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:56 PM   #526
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Compared to Stream support integrated on the chip, I'm not sure I see the advantage here.
It is only an advantage in the sense you aren't restricted to where you can plug it in. If I had to plug in the Stream at my TiVo it wouldn't be an option even for me.

So while yes it is another box to plug in, you are pretty open to where you can plug it in.

Also we still don't know if the Premiere 6 tuner will be a full Stream integrated. It could only offer a portion of what the Stream does. For example it could be limited to 1 feed rather than 4.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:09 PM   #527
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For what it's worth, the S5's chip can transcode 2 streams, compared to the Stream's 4 streams. Unknown if there would be a fixed limit of 1 on the S5 for some reason, but we know it's capable of 2.

Plus, for now we don't know what kind of performance hit the CPU takes while transcoding is in progress. On paper it's a capable chip and it probably has dedicated transistors integrated on the die for it, but it's an intense process and still a question mark. Meanwhile, the Premiere CPU will turn to crap by just downloading a web video.

Last edited by BigJimOutlaw : 08-06-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:16 PM   #528
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Plus, for now we don't know what kind of performance hit the CPU takes while transcoding is in progress. On paper it's a capable chip and it probably has dedicated transistors integrated on the die for it, but it's an intense process and still a question mark.
DISH Hopper uses the same chip for integrated Slingbox capabilities. I'm not aware of any performance related issues, but I don't follow satellite hardware all that closely.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:20 PM   #529
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DISH Hopper uses the same chip for integrated Slingbox capabilities. I'm not aware of any performance related issues, but I don't follow satellite hardware all that closely.
Yeah, I was wondering if anybody ever reported any performance issues too.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:36 PM   #530
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The 6-Tuner TiVo's CPU is similar to the ARM Cortex-A12/Apple A6X, so a huge increase in speed. What isn't clear is if the DMIPS calculation is per core or total. The A12/A6x can do 3K DMIPS PER Core, with two cores standard. Broadcom only specifies 3K DMIPS, not clear if that it total or 3K DMIPS per core.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:07 PM   #531
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The 6-Tuner TiVo's CPU is similar to the ARM Cortex-A12/Apple A6X, so a huge increase in speed. What isn't clear is if the DMIPS calculation is per core or total. The A12/A6x can do 3K DMIPS PER Core, with two cores standard. Broadcom only specifies 3K DMIPS, not clear if that it total or 3K DMIPS per core.
I've been confused by this too because they say both depending on the webpage/press release.

http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cab...utions/BCM7425
"Broadcom's 40nm MoCA 2.0-integrated STB and Gateway platforms are powered by its high performance dual thread Zephyr (MIPS®-based) CPU that delivers 3000 DMIPS with industry-leading processor capability."

http://investor.broadcom.com/release...leaseID=541251
"In the media server cable, satellite and IP STB market, Broadcom introduces two new 40nm cable STB SoCs that feature an ultra-high performance MIPS®-based 1.3 GHz dual threaded applications processor with an additional 3000 DMIPS of hardware processing performance, totaling 6000 DMIPS."

The second quote goes on to describe the 7425 and 7424. I don't know what to make of it. Since 3000 DMIPS is still a significant boost I'm not complaining either way.

I would still like to know what the Mini's CPU's processor performance is, but they don't publish the 7418 data.

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Old 08-06-2013, 03:50 PM   #532
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http://investor.broadcom.com/release...leaseID=541251
"In the media server cable, satellite and IP STB market, Broadcom introduces two new 40nm cable STB SoCs that feature an ultra-high performance MIPS®-based 1.3 GHz dual threaded applications processor with an additional 3000 DMIPS of hardware processing performance, totaling 6000 DMIPS."

The second quote goes on to describe the 7425 and 7424. I don't know what to make of it. Since 3000 DMIPS is still a significant boost I'm not complaining either way.
The second quote leads me to believe that they mistakenly omitted the "per core" designation in the PDF. It's easier to omit something, than to claim something that isn't true.

The reason I am fixated on single thread performance is because that is where we are likely to get the best bang for our performance buck. It's nice that we have two cores, that will allow for more simultaneous work, but single thread performance will be the most visible.

The note about the new channel change engine is exciting as well.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:55 PM   #533
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This was an edit originally, but just making a new post instead...

Some technical writeups itemize the transcoder and the "applications processor" separately. So I'm wondering if the transcoder is its own unique 3000 DMIPS unit on the die, in addition to the 3000 DMIPS, 1.3GHz, dual-core Zephyr?

EDIT:

Dug up some more on the Zephyr.

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1257982
The Zephyr is the brand name for the BRCM 5000. It appears to be itself a dual core 1.3GHz chip with 3000 DMIPS of total performance. This is still 3x the dual-core Premiere, which should be suitable enough for the UI and apps. I agree, though, that the single core performance is where the bang is at.

I'm guessing the transcoder may be its own 3000 DMIPS subsystem on the die.

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:14 PM   #534
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I'm not sure a transocder would be measured in DMIPS. It's a specialized chip designed only to do only one thing. DMIPS is a benchmark meant more for general purpose CPUs.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:20 PM   #535
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I thought the chip they will be using is limted to two streams?
It was answered after my post that it is 2 streams. I was just throwing out a number since I could see with the rest of the processing it would be limited so people might still want a Stream.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:21 PM   #536
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It was answered after my post that it is 2 streams. I was just throwing out a number since I could see with the rest of the processing it would be limited so people might still want a Stream.
I just deleted my post. I didn't realize there were alot more posts to read until I refreshed the page.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:34 PM   #537
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I wonder if the new unit will be able to do two transcodes AND three streams to Minis at the same time? Or if it'll be 3 devices no matter if it's a Mini or an iPad?

With the standalone Stream it can technically transocode 4 streams at a time, but a single TiVo can only feed it 3 streams out at a time, so you'd only ever max it out if you had two TiVos and at least one of the users was streaming something from the second TiVo.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:37 PM   #538
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I'm not sure a transocder would be measured in DMIPS. It's a specialized chip designed only to do only one thing. DMIPS is a benchmark meant more for general purpose CPUs.
That's probably correct. In any event there appears to be some sort of additional 3000 DMIPS subsystem on the die besides the general purpose CPU, whatever its purpose may be for.

If they could harness it to handle apps/UI and DVR overhead separately, that'd be a bonus... but my pessimism would think that's probably not a right-away thing (kinda like dual-core support this generation.)

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:47 PM   #539
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That's probably correct. In any event there appears to be some sort of additional subsystem on the die besides the general purpose CPU, whatever its purpose may be for.

If they could harness it to handle apps/UI and DVR overhead separately, that'd be a bonus... but my pessimism would think that's probably not a right-away thing (kinda like dual-core support this generation.)

But performance will improve nonetheless.
I'm betting the transcoder is independent of the main CPU, even if it is on-die, just like the GPU. So whether it's sitting idle or running at full capacity it will have no effect on the main CPU or the performance of apps. It's possible using it might cause a slight slowdown in bus or I/O operations, but TiVo will likely account for that and dedicate enough resources to the transcoding to keep it from interfering with the other functions of the box.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:52 PM   #540
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I'm betting the transcoder is independent of the main CPU, even if it is on-die, just like the GPU. So whether it's sitting idle or running at full capacity it will have no effect on the main CPU or the performance of apps. It's possible using it might cause a slight slowdown in bus or I/O operations, but TiVo will likely account for that and dedicate enough resources to the transcoding to keep it from interfering with the other functions of the box.
Agreed. Whatever the subsystem is, Broadcom claims it has its own 3K of DMIPS, so if the transcoder isn't measured in DMIPS, this would be a third independent unit of some kind.
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