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Old 07-29-2013, 01:17 AM   #121
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I'd wonder when we'll see support for Windows 8 phones and tablets. Probably before we'll see support for Android devices.
Actually Windows 8 does not support Encrypted HLS, which is what the Stream currently uses. There is a 3rd party SDK that you can use to add it to a Windows 8 app but it was only released at NAB back in April, so even if they are using that SDK and started immediately after it was released development would still be lagging behind Android.
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:54 PM   #122
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Just in case anyone still has any doubts on where the tablet market is going:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/29/tablet-marketshare/

The short version is android tablets out sold IOS tablets by over 2 to 1 in the last quarter.

TiVo wake up and get support for android.
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:28 PM   #123
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Give it another year or two, and you will see Android tablets everywhere. Like the iPhone dominating the smartphone market for a few years, the iPad has dominated for a few years. However, times a 'changing.
iPhone marketshare is actually increasing in the USA.

If you look at the numbers from the big carriers it is typically something like 50% iPhone, 45% Android and 5% other.

http://www.imore.com/att-q2-2013-res...artphone-sales

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/18/tech...erizon-iphone/

http://bgr.com/2013/07/08/t-mobile-iphone-sales/
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:59 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by atmuscarella View Post
Just in case anyone still has any doubts on where the tablet market is going:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/29/tablet-marketshare/

The short version is android tablets out sold IOS tablets by over 2 to 1 in the last quarter.

TiVo wake up and get support for android.
The link you posted is global sales most of which are irrelevant to TiVo. If you read up the thread a little you can see a post showing that tablet use in the US is not only dominated by iOS but that the iOS share is actually increasing. Android tablet users are a shrinking minority in the US!

American Android users either don't actually use their devices for some reason in which case there is no point in TiVo chasing them or Android sales are still only really significant outside the US. You might want to deal with that instead of keeping your fingers crossed.

Here is a link to the sad reality...

http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:35 PM   #125
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The link you posted is global sales most of which are irrelevant to TiVo. If you read up the thread a little you can see a post showing that tablet use in the US is not only dominated by iOS but that the iOS share is actually increasing. Android tablet users are a shrinking minority in the US!

American Android users either don't actually use their devices for some reason in which case there is no point in TiVo chasing them or Android sales are still only really significant outside the US. You might want to deal with that instead of keeping your fingers crossed.

Here is a link to the sad reality...

http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update
That article did not say that android sales where outside the US. In fact it did not talk about sales at all and the only article about sales it linked to again showed Android tablets significantly outselling IOS tablets.

Also the usage data was based on online ad impressions through the Chitika Ad Network, which does nothing to tell me or anyone else if android tablet owners want to stream video from their TiVos onto their tablets.

The reality is very simple for new tablet sales Android is significantly out selling IOS and there are now more Android tablets in use than IOS ones. Any company that only supports IOS tablets is writing off the majority of the tablet market.
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:28 PM   #126
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That article did not say that android sales where outside the US. In fact it did not talk about sales at all and the only article about sales it linked to again showed Android tablets significantly outselling IOS tablets.

Also the usage data was based on online ad impressions through the Chitika Ad Network, which does nothing to tell me or anyone else if android tablet owners want to stream video from their TiVos onto their tablets.

The reality is very simple for new tablet sales Android is significantly out selling IOS and there are now more Android tablets in use than IOS ones. Any company that only supports IOS tablets is writing off the majority of the tablet market.
So why don't Android users actually use their devices then, can you explain? It only takes a few clicks to find more sources for usage statistics that show Android use is bizarrely low. It's pointless linking because you think global sales are all that matters. It's the same story with revenue on the app stores.

Add on the fragmentation of Android tablets and the variation in performance and quality of those devices and it just looks hopeless. I work for a software company and guess why we only develop for iOS? Yes that's right - none of our customers have expressed an interest in Android. Nobody uses the freaking things!

FWIW I think people buy Kindles and Nooks to read books and the rest of Android tablet sales are price driven and the people who buy them just aren't heavy users.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:13 PM   #127
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So why don't Android users actually use their devices then, can you explain? It only takes a few clicks to find more sources for usage statistics that show Android use is bizarrely low. It's pointless linking because you think global sales are all that matters. It's the same story with revenue on the app stores.

Add on the fragmentation of Android tablets and the variation in performance and quality of those devices and it just looks hopeless. I work for a software company and guess why we only develop for iOS? Yes that's right - none of our customers have expressed an interest in Android. Nobody uses the freaking things!

FWIW I think people buy Kindles and Nooks to read books and the rest of Android tablet sales are price driven and the people who buy them just aren't heavy users.
Last time I looked buying and reading books is a primary function of a tablet or are you saying any usage that isn't trackable by some add network doesn't count?

I still pretty much use a computer to surf the web and block as many adds and trackers as possible. Until I can easily do the same with my tablet I will continue to limit surfing the web with it. In any event add tracking isn't going to tell anyone if people are interested in using their Android tablets to stream shows from their TiVos or not.

I looked for US only sales and could not find any recent data. If you have links to recent US only sales point to them otherwise stop trying to say something is a fact that you have no facts to support.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:47 AM   #128
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Last time I looked buying and reading books is a primary function of a tablet or are you saying any usage that isn't trackable by some add network doesn't count?

I still pretty much use a computer to surf the web and block as many adds and trackers as possible. Until I can easily do the same with my tablet I will continue to limit surfing the web with it. In any event add tracking isn't going to tell anyone if people are interested in using their Android tablets to stream shows from their TiVos or not.

I looked for US only sales and could not find any recent data. If you have links to recent US only sales point to them otherwise stop trying to say something is a fact that you have no facts to support.
Reading books isn't streaming video from a DVR. Is it? I'm saying that people who buy a device to read books are not necessarily going to be in the market for streaming from a TiVo. Not least because nooks and kindles have their own content ecosystems tied to Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

You telling me that even you don't like using your Android device is about the nadir of this particular discussion and sums things up nicely. Guess what type of device I'm typing this on (and which I just streamed video on)?

TiVo is a business. They know their market. They don't support Android in the same way they are reassessing their support for Comcast on demand. Not enough return on investment.

I don't even understand your last paragraph. It's not me who is concerned about sales. It was you who indicated Android sales like it is meant to mean something.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:24 AM   #129
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Reading books isn't streaming video from a DVR. Is it? I'm saying that people who buy a device to read books are not necessarily going to be in the market for streaming from a TiVo. Not least because nooks and kindles have their own content ecosystems tied to Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

You telling me that even you don't like using your Android device is about the nadir of this particular discussion and sums things up nicely. Guess what type of device I'm typing this on (and which I just streamed video on)?

TiVo is a business. They know their market. They don't support Android in the same way they are reassessing their support for Comcast on demand. Not enough return on investment.

I don't even understand your last paragraph. It's not me who is concerned about sales. It was you who indicated Android sales like it is meant to mean something.
Ok so for some reason you believe people using tablets for something other than surfing the web are not interested in streaming video from their TiVos to there tablets . The fact that I want to limit surfing the web with my tablet has no baring on if I want to use my tablet to stream or side load video from my TiVos to my tablet.

Which brings me back to my original post about this subject. There has been a major shift in tablet sales in the last year from IOS tablets being the vast majority to Android now being the majority. If you don't think that warrants TiVo supporting what is now and will likely be the major tablet platform for the foreseeable future that is your business and we can agree to disagree.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:38 AM   #130
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Ok so for some reason you believe people using tablets for something other than surfing the web are not interested in streaming video from their TiVos to there tablets . The fact that I want to limit surfing the web with my tablet has no baring on if I want to use my tablet to stream or side load video from my TiVos to my tablet.

Which brings me back to my original post about this subject. There has been a major shift in tablet sales in the last year from IOS tablets being the vast majority to Android now being the majority. If you don't think that warrants TiVo supporting what is now and will likely be the major tablet platform for the foreseeable future that is your business and we can agree to disagree.
My rather obvious point is that people just don't use Android devices for much of anything. You even agreed with me and said that you don't even like using yours. Don't blame you and at least you are honest.

I linked to usage statistics which you indicated we're irrelevant. You quote sales figures and then criticise me for not posting anything to back up those sales figures. For some reason.

I'm sure Android will be supported eventually and it will be a nightmare. Some devices will work some won't and TiVo will be lambasted for not satisfying everyone again.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:48 AM   #131
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The link you posted is global sales most of which are irrelevant to TiVo. If you read up the thread a little you can see a post showing that tablet use in the US is not only dominated by iOS but that the iOS share is actually increasing. Android tablet users are a shrinking minority in the US!

American Android users either don't actually use their devices for some reason in which case there is no point in TiVo chasing them or Android sales are still only really significant outside the US. You might want to deal with that instead of keeping your fingers crossed.

Here is a link to the sad reality...

http://chitika.com/insights/2013/june-tablet-update
That link is for tablet web usage. Not for the number of users of Android tablets. Two different things.

Personally I have several Android tablets, but most of my usage is from my local network, not usage on the web. Now the Android device where I have a lot of web usage is my cell phone.

Streaming from a TiVo to a tablet is not web usage. It would be local usage of the tablet. Which is what most of my tablet use is.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:55 AM   #132
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That link is for tablet web usage. Not for the number of users of Android tablets. Two different things.

Personally I have several Android tablets, but most of my usage is from my local network, not usage on the web. Now the Android device where I have a lot of web usage is from my cell phone.
So Android users don't surf the web but do everything else that iPad users do and you believe that despite not actually having any evidence? What is your theory on why TiVo doesn't support Android then? Don't you think they do market research including keeping track of the number of actual users of their iOS and Android apps?
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:26 AM   #133
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So Android users don't surf the web but do everything else that iPad users do and you believe that despite not actually having any evidence? What is your theory on why TiVo doesn't support Android then? Don't you think they do market research including keeping track of the number of actual users of their iOS and Android apps?
I have no theory on that. I was pointing out that your link has nothing to do with ownership numbers of Apple or Android tablets. Only the web usage of the tablets.

And streaming from the TiVo to the tablet is not web usage.

I've already accepted the fact that stream is probably not coming to Android. So that is less money that TiVo gets from me. Which is why I bought a Slingbox 350 when they were released last year. At least this way I can use it to watch content when away from home as well.

Although if streaming is built in to the six tuner TiVo, it will end up being a wasted feature for me without Android support.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:41 AM   #134
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I have no theory on that. I was pointing out that your link has nothing to do with ownership numbers of Apple or Android tablets. Only the web usage of the tablets.

And streaming from the TiVo to the tablet is not web usage.

I've already accepted the fact that stream is probably not coming to Android. So that is less money that TiVo gets from me. Which is why I bought a Slingbox 350 when they were released last year. At least this way I can use it to watch content when away from home as well.

Although if streaming is built in to the six tuner TiVo, it will end up being a wasted feature for me without Android support.
To be honest I think Stream support will come to Android at some point but it might not be as nice an implementation as on iOS or as widely used.

I've been looking for articles on the Android usage discrepancy with Apple devices. It's not just my little theory or argument on here for the sake of it. I think the following two links cover the topic in a straightforward way...


http://readwrite.com/2013/06/06/3-po...od57gL30Dosu3R


http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonyk...ement-paradox/
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:43 AM   #135
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That article did not say that android sales where outside the US. In fact it did not talk about sales at all and the only article about sales it linked to again showed Android tablets significantly outselling IOS tablets.

Also the usage data was based on online ad impressions through the Chitika Ad Network, which does nothing to tell me or anyone else if android tablet owners want to stream video from their TiVos onto their tablets.

The reality is very simple for new tablet sales Android is significantly out selling IOS and there are now more Android tablets in use than IOS ones. Any company that only supports IOS tablets is writing off the majority of the tablet market.
Well, with the rise of android tablets comes the rise of fragmentation:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-575...t-a-bad-thing/

I think everyone here (myself included) would love to see android support for stream. But how many people would vote for android support if not all devices are covered?

If you get beat up for having no android support and then you release support and 20-30% of the devices can't run the program, all you are doing is pushing up your support costs.

Let's not look at this as "release stream for android and we're done." Instead you have to think about the bigger picture. For thousands of apps, there is probably no issue with the compatibility or support, but the more complicated apps that draw from a variety of systems will be more challenging.

While I do not know of a technical issue that is holding this back I can think of a lot of business reasons why this has not happened yet.

Edit: Actually this is a better visual of the problem:
http://gizmodo.com/just-look-at-how-...ot-l-921423675

Last edited by Austin Bike : 07-30-2013 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:41 PM   #136
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This is an update from BBC about their troubles bringing the Android app up to speed with the iOS app.

In it they mention that their Android development team is 3 times the size of the iOS development team.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/...Devices-Update
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:44 AM   #137
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This is an update from BBC about their troubles bringing the Android app up to speed with the iOS app.

In it they mention that their Android development team is 3 times the size of the iOS development team.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/...Devices-Update
The notion that you have to support 100% of the android versions and 100% of the screen sizes or you can't do anything in android is gibberish.

Netflix did a slow roll-out for Android, supporting only specific devices at first. They did it again for tablets when honeycomb came out.

Their android team is not 3x the size of their iOS team because Android is harder to develop for... it's because iOS has a smaller amount of hardware to test on.

It would be trivial for TiVo to roll out a version that only runs on a specific set of devices and add support over time to additional devices.

If they aren't doing it, it's because the stream is a dead product, not because of any notion about the development cycle or lack of market share. It's because the stream is not selling enough units to justify expanding the list of mobile devices it works on.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:06 PM   #138
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This is an update from BBC about their troubles bringing the Android app up to speed with the iOS app.

In it they mention that their Android development team is 3 times the size of the iOS development team.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/...Devices-Update
That's interesting. The Apple team supports 4 basic devices/form factors (iPhone, iPhone stretch, iPad, and iPad mini). The Android team supports 3000 devices (phones, tablets, and phablets).

Seems like the Apple team is a bit bloated, or the Android team is top notch.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:35 PM   #139
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It would be trivial for TiVo to roll out a version that only runs on a specific set of devices and add support over time to additional devices.
My favorite claims are these- "its only a small change", or "a minor tweak in functionality".

If it were that easy, I'm sure it would have been done already. By easy, I mean both technically and through customer acceptance. I'm not sure why the delays, but my personal guess is we will have a lot of tivo news in the fall, this included.

At this point we can continue to gripe, but it will do us no good.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:31 PM   #140
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If they aren't doing it, it's because the stream is a dead product, not because of any notion about the development cycle or lack of market share. It's because the stream is not selling enough units to justify expanding the list of mobile devices it works on.
There is a strong indication that the next gen hardware, due out in a couple months, will have Stream capabilities built right into the box. So the standalone Stream hardware might be dead, but it seems TiVo is doubling down on the capability so app development should move forward.

TiVo has never been known for being quick about anything so while I personally don't think it should take this long to get an Android app out there, it doesn't surprise me that it's taking this long.
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:12 AM   #141
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Netflix, hulu, hbo2go, shogo, cinmax numerous others stream video to a very wide variety of android devices. So the development differences between ios and android ring very hollow. I to was a very successful systems programmer in my time. The excuses are flat. The newest green of android devices out preform any ios device.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:39 AM   #142
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Here is a nice summary of the issue from the PBS team on why they don't have android tablet support yet.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...g-android-yet/
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Old 08-03-2013, 02:05 PM   #143
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This....

http://www.longtailvideo.com/blog/31...ng-on-android/

...which is linked to from the article above is much more relvant to TiVo's plight with Android. They already have an Android app, so they've presumably dealt with the UI issues related to a multitude of screen sizes. However the broken implimentation of HLS in Android is a major problem. The Stream currently uses encrypted HLS as it's method for serving video to the iPad app. If even the most recent versions of Android do not fully support HLS tha means TiVo has to change the Stream to support an alternate protocol for Android. That is much more difficult then just writing an Android app to play the video they already have. That's a major redesign of the entire system. I had previously read that HLS was fully supported in Android 4.0+, so I assumed they were just going to write e app to only support those devices with 4.0+. But if the implimentation is broken even in those devices then they'd have to go with something completely different which could explain why it's taking so long to accomplish.
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Old 08-03-2013, 02:47 PM   #144
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The notion that you have to support 100% of the android versions and 100% of the screen sizes or you can't do anything in android is gibberish.
So, you're basically saying that if TiVo dropped an app on the market tomorrow but your platforms were not supported you'd be happy?

Everyone agrees that not all platforms will be supported, as long as it is not their platform that is left behind.

I had this issue with silicon development. A socket-compatible processor that worked with "most" of our partners' platforms.

Back to the drawing board because you can't tell a company "it will work on these and not those, even though they all have the same socket and you built both systems to spec.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:50 PM   #145
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The Stream currently uses encrypted HLS as it's method for serving video to the iPad app. If even the most recent versions of Android do not fully support HLS tha means TiVo has to change the Stream to support an alternate protocol for Android. That is much more difficult then just writing an Android app to play the video they already have. That's a major redesign of the entire system.
It's clear that it's easier in iOS than Android, and that it the excuse that these various companies are providing. The fact is that it is possible even if it requires sourcing the right companies and individuals to do it.

The responsibility for creating a device so heavily reliant upon the HLS protocol that isn't a standard (yet) and only supports one operating system falls on TiVo leadership. Perhaps they need to bring in someone with more long term vision since their past decisions are very iOS centric creating an inflexibility in response to market changes.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:30 PM   #146
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You have to remember that the design decisions for the Stream where likely made at least a year before it's release, which mean mid 2011. At the time the market share for Android tablets hadn't even hit double digits yet. Plus ICS was just about to be released and it promised support for HLS. There is no way for them to know that the HLS support would broken and still unusable 2 years later.

So looking at it from the perspective of someone designing a product in 2011 it makes perfect sense that they would chose HLS. It's easy to use, supported by all Apple devices (which dominated the market at the time), and contained an encryption protocol approved by CableLabs.

The only way they could have known it was a bad choice was if they had employed a psychic or invented a time machine first.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #147
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You have to remember that the design decisions for the Stream where likely made at least a year before it's release, which mean mid 2011. At the time the market share for Android tablets hadn't even hit double digits yet. Plus ICS was just about to be released and it promised support for HLS. There is no way for them to know that the HLS support would broken and still unusable 2 years later.

So looking at it from the perspective of someone designing a product in 2011 it makes perfect sense that they would chose HLS. It's easy to use, supported by all Apple devices (which dominated the market at the time), and contained an encryption protocol approved by CableLabs.

The only way they could have known it was a bad choice was if they had employed a psychic or invented a time machine first.
To be fair, the iPad was just released mid-2010, and Android 3.0 tablet support was released mid-2011. Of course there were no real competitors to the iPad mid 2011, but the signs were clear that there would be an Android competitor. At that time, just looking at the iPhone vs Android trends, it was not difficult to see what would happen after a few years. For those that remember, this has happened before in Mac vs PC...

I know Tivo had to make decisions based on what was known at the time, but they put all their eggs in the iOS basket. Best decision in the short term? Yes. Best decision after that? Absolutely not.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:23 PM   #148
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They also have to consider what CableLabs would approve for this. Encrypted HLS is an accepted standard for CableLabs. Anything else would have required some sort of custom encryption scheme that they would have run through the certification process. That's expensive and time consuming.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:45 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_smits View Post
To be fair, the iPad was just released mid-2010, and Android 3.0 tablet support was released mid-2011. Of course there were no real competitors to the iPad mid 2011, but the signs were clear that there would be an Android competitor.
Well, I'm not sure how clear that was in 2011, honeycomb was slooow and buggy; nobody purchased the Xoom in volumes anywhere close to expectations. It took until Ice Cream Sandwich for these to have the smoothness necessary to gain market acceptance.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:41 PM   #150
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I agree. I think TiVo went with a format they thought, at the time, would become a standard and supported on all platforms. Now two years later it's still not fully supported on Android so they're forced to redesign the whole product or implement a 3rd party SDK to get it to work. That's a much bigger task then they intended so it's understandable that it's taking longer then expected. If HLS was fully supported in Android like it should be then TiVo probably would have Stream support available by now.

That being said there are 3rd party SDKs for both Android and Win8 that add real encrypted HLS support, so this is all possible to accomplish without having to redesign the Stream's core functionality. Although I guess the viability of those SDKs really depends on their licensing terms. If they have a price per seat then it may force TiVo to start charging for the app on those platforms, and I'm not sure that would make users very happy.
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