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Old 07-25-2013, 02:23 AM   #1
BigJimOutlaw
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Court sides with Dish Re: Commercial Skipping

In other news, the 9th Circuit sided with Dish in Fox's lawsuit against them regarding the Hopper's channel-skipping feature.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/0...s-appeal-fox-v

Doesn't impact Tivo directly right now, but should they one day decide that trying to be cozy with content partners won't pay the bills, they have some legal leverage to do the same.
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:48 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by BigJimOutlaw View Post
In other news, the 9th Circuit sided with Dish in Fox's lawsuit against them regarding the Hopper's channel-skipping feature.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/0...s-appeal-fox-v

Doesn't impact Tivo directly right now, but should they one day decide that trying to be cozy with content partners won't pay the bills, they have some legal leverage to do the same.
Keep in mind that this hasn't been fully litigated. This is related to a preliminary injunction to stop the service. The courts tend to hold litigants to a very high standard when it comes to preliminary injunctions.
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Old 07-26-2013, 05:12 AM   #3
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Keep in mind that this hasn't been fully litigated. This is related to a preliminary injunction to stop the service. The courts tend to hold litigants to a very high standard when it comes to preliminary injunctions.
The 9th Circuit ruling on upholding the preliminary injunction is an interesting read and clearly indicates that the big 4 are in a terrible position and are likely to LOSE--on every point raised by the big 4--on this. The big 4 are likely having big stomach problems after having read the 9th's ruling. The bell tolls for thee, big 4. Their only hope is negotiations, but the very nanosecond the huge O&O's in the largest cities in the USA are dropped, consumers will call or email their congressional representatives who know their re-elections depends upon Joe Blow having his sports and other big 4 content as his command. And the big 4 have always come out badly in such showdowns. This is what happened with the TWC vs. Disney O&O locals and CBS vs. Dish O&O locals. The last thing they want is Congress passing a law that is likely to NOT favor the big 4, so in the past, the big 4 cave in.

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Old 07-26-2013, 11:15 AM   #4
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I don't actually know why the networks even care. The current model they use for charging advertisers has no bearing on reality anyway, yet advertisers don't seem to care, they just blindly keep forking over the cash to put ads on TV.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:33 PM   #5
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I don't actually know why the networks even care. The current model they use for charging advertisers has no bearing on reality anyway, yet advertisers don't seem to care, they just blindly keep forking over the cash to put ads on TV.
That's a fair point, but you bring up how almost all the music and TV industries are sticking to an old model that just won't serve them in the coming future, but they have no clue what the new model would be, and they are frightened. Didn't one of the cable co. execs say that he didn't know about nor how Apple AirPlay worked? Those are the ninny's at the top, and the are OLD and white. They would be best served picking any 20-something on the street and have them run the company to show them how the new entertainment economy really works and let them create the new model. Sometimes we get so old and set in our ways, we see nothing else and lack vision. This was Bill Gates biggest fear, and even he admitted that there would be a point when he would no longer be able to see the future to the benefit of his company as he would not be living in quite the same world as those consumers decades younger than he. Do we all remember the mighty Pan Am, Braniff, National, etc. airlines? When the world changed, they perished. Something similar in entertainment may be about to occur.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:59 AM   #6
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Well, I know how my model works: The advertisers pay me directly to watch their (probably interactive) ads, I use the credits I get from that to pay for on demand programs (or just use my own money if I don't want to watch ads). Unfortunately, in that model, the networks are completely eliminated, so it is no wonder that the networks are skeer'd of a new model :-).
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:14 PM   #7
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I don't actually know why the networks even care. The current model they use for charging advertisers has no bearing on reality anyway, yet advertisers don't seem to care, they just blindly keep forking over the cash to put ads on TV.
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Well, I know how my model works: The advertisers pay me directly to watch their (probably interactive) ads, I use the credits I get from that to pay for on demand programs (or just use my own money if I don't want to watch ads). Unfortunately, in that model, the networks are completely eliminated, so it is no wonder that the networks are skeer'd of a new model :-).
I find it highly unlikely that consumers will be willing to replace advertiser's dollars when it comes to TV delivery. Also I think we forget that "TV" has been driven by the need/desire of companies to use it to market their products. As long as the need to market products with TV adds continues and we as consumers are unwilling to pay lots more than we do now TV will likely continue to be delivered the way it is.

However if someone comes up with a better/more efficient way to market products (social media? Google Glass? Something else?) that allows companies to stop using TV to market their products then that is likely to cause a significant disruption in the current video production and distribution systems. Cost will have to be adjusted to what the market (us consumers) are willing to pay, which is likely to be significantly less than what advertisers are currently willing to pay.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:49 PM   #8
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Anyone using a DVR is already skipping commercials manually. DISH is just automating and streamlining the process. A DVR user probably isn't going to be influenced by commercials anyway.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:18 AM   #9
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Well, I know how my model works: The advertisers pay me directly to watch their (probably interactive) ads, I use the credits I get from that to pay for on demand programs (or just use my own money if I don't want to watch ads). Unfortunately, in that model, the networks are completely eliminated, so it is no wonder that the networks are skeer'd of a new model :-).
But the networks are all part of some massive media conglomerate that includes movie studios and everything entertainment. The networks may serve a different role than they do now and generate revenue in a different way then they do today or with more innovative ways of advertising or even the OLD way of having product placement and even those annoying bugs during our TV shows, but instead of stupid cross promotion, it would be stupid ads for products, OR even the interactive ad as cited, with your TV show on pause while you select the incon for the ad because, with the help of DISH and other MVPD's, there is far better more precise info as to what ad a viewer is REALLY interested in. After all, we aren't really really against advertising, we are against the ads that don't interest us or that are not for products or services we desire or evaluating a need. If all ads were narrowed to my needs or desires or as compelling as Jack in the Box, as just one example, I would not be using TiVo's skip button. As a matter of fact, I do take pains to see cross promotionals of other TV shows becayse that INTERESTS me, but so does new dishwasher machine detergents, convenience foods, anything to do with COFFEE, electronics. I am not buying a car, refiing my house, not interested in Viagra or several other medications, and on and on. The salesman we let in the door is the one who has the product or service that interests us.

This all requires admitting that it is not best to perish using the old model because we refuse to change with the world. Dish's point, how ever self serving, is still a valid one: embrace change or perish; give the customer what they want. Frankly, I believe that what is far more eating away at big 4 revenue is all the free TV, not-cleared--on YouTube that all the young people watch for free or from other sites including movies, NOT the potential impact of Auto-Hop, which merely automates what people are doing manually today, so quite unlikely to change a thing in the broadcasters lives. Meanwhile just about every episode of currently airing TV shows can be found for illegal viewing on the internet that is REAL copyright violation, not Auto-hop. But Dish is an easy target because they aren't hiding on the internet.

Last edited by Series3Sub : 07-31-2013 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:11 AM   #10
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But the networks are all part of some massive media conglomerate that includes movie studios and everything entertainment. The networks may serve a different role than they do now and generate revenue in a different way then they do today or with more innovative ways of advertising or even the OLD way of having product placement and even those annoying bugs during our TV shows, but instead of stupid cross promotion, it would be stupid ads for products, OR even the interactive ad as cited, with your TV show on pause while you select the incon for the ad because, with the help of DISH and other MVPD's, there is far better more precise info as to what ad a viewer is REALLY interested in. After all, we aren't really really against advertising, we are against the ads that don't interest us or that are not for products or services we desire or evaluating a need. If all ads were narrowed to my needs or desires or as compelling as Jack in the Box, as just one example, I would not be using TiVo's skip button. As a matter of fact, I do take pains to see cross promotionals of other TV shows becayse that INTERESTS me, but so does new dishwasher machine detergents, convenience foods, anything to do with COFFEE, electronics. I am not buying a car, refiing my house, not interested in Viagra or several other medications, and on and on. The salesman we let in the door is the one who has the product or service that interests us.

This all requires admitting that it is not best to perish using the old model because we refuse to change with the world. Dish's point, how ever self serving, is still a valid one: embrace change or perish; give the customer what they want. Frankly, I believe that what is far more eating away at big 4 revenue is all the free TV, not-cleared--on YouTube that all the young people watch for free or from other sites including movies, NOT the potential impact of Auto-Hop, which merely automates what people are doing manually today, so quite unlikely to change a thing in the broadcasters lives. Meanwhile just about every episode of currently airing TV shows can be found for illegal viewing on the internet that is REAL copyright violation, not Auto-hop. But Dish is an easy target because they aren't hiding on the internet.
You have said a mouth full with your post.

However I don't think Dish is embracing change with Auto-hop, they are actually trying to hold onto the recent past. Auto-hop is meant to give you a reason the pick Dish instead of Direct or cable. In other words to get you to stick with the "Cable style" delivery system instead of moving to something else like streaming via Netflix or Amazon or even going old school with OTA.

What seems fairly clear to me is that there will still be companies that need to market products and consumers who want to consume video in the future. What is unclear (at least to me) is how or when the current video production and delivery systems will be disrupted.

I think most of us expect IP delivery to be a major part of the disruption as it provides a delivery system that does not directly require a cable or satellite provider. It is interesting that Netflix is becoming a content producer and like the premium cable channels offering it without adds to support marketing of their own service. Effectively a new school delivery system going with old school business practices.

It will be interesting to see where we are 5 or 10 years from now.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:53 PM   #11
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The 9th circuit is the most overturned appeals court in the nation. I wouldn't put too much hope into this ruling's stickiness.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:40 PM   #12
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It varies, but the 6th Circuit has been #1 recently too by rate. By sheer number of cases, the 9th is going to have the most since it hears the most cases.

Although it's usually cited by number of cases heard by the SCOTUS vs. the number of overturns, that's not a good measure since the SCOTUS overturns most cases it hears. If it agrees with the circuit court, it just declines to hear the case.

I'd like to see number overturned vs. total number decided by the circuit (whether the SCOTUS decided to hear them or not), but I can't find it.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:49 PM   #13
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Anyone using a DVR is already skipping commercials manually. DISH is just automating and streamlining the process. A DVR user probably isn't going to be influenced by commercials anyway.
You may think so, but various studies have shown that this is NOT true.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:01 AM   #14
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I'm not sure why the ad agencies haven't been coming up with commercials designed to be be viewed at fast forward speed. You'd think the initial novelty would get some eyeballs (for a few weeks, anyway).
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:42 PM   #15
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I'm not sure why the ad agencies haven't been coming up with commercials designed to be be viewed at fast forward speed. You'd think the initial novelty would get some eyeballs (for a few weeks, anyway).
Have you ever tried to FF on cable company DVR? It's not as smooth as Tivo. I suspect there are varying degrees of FF across various DVR's.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:23 PM   #16
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I'm not sure why the ad agencies haven't been coming up with commercials designed to be be viewed at fast forward speed. You'd think the initial novelty would get some eyeballs (for a few weeks, anyway).
I don't have citations, but there have been various examples of this, heck, I think even some *several* years ago (5+).
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